Yet another thread on free will

[Robert_Sock]

Even if CBT was proven to be effective in treating every other mental illness, which as a psychologist I know is far, far from the truth, unless it is clearly shown to correct adult survivors of emotional abuse they suffered in childhood, which are deeply buried in the unconscious, it’s of no relevance to this thread. The bottom line, adult survivors of emotional abuse as children have a somewhat limited free will when it comes to sexual promiscuity and drug and alcohol abuse, and CBT will not correct this.

The unconscious emotional memories must first be brought into the conscious and fully worked through before CBT can possibly have an effect.

 

[Mavzylor]

I’ve never understood how free will can exist while God is all knowing. If God knows, before he even makes a person, every choice that the person will make and ultimately whether or not he will go to hell, doesn’t that mean God intentionally makes people to go to hell?

 

[GEddie]

It’s not that we either have a complete free will or no free will! All I’m trying to suggest in this thread is that our free will is much smaller than most philosophers are too proud to admit!

Which I’ve been saying for some time; that FW is in part a mirage; but the reflex response is “nononono, we MUST be perfectly free, else classical philosophy doesn’t work!!!”

That classical philosophy may need revision is something they seemingly can’t handle.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Vico]

I’ve never understood how free will can exist while God is all knowing. If God knows, before he even makes a person, every choice that the person will make and ultimately whether or not he will go to hell, doesn’t that mean God intentionally makes people to go to hell?

You can understand what Catholics do not accept:

• Pelagianism: God’s assistance is not needed for salvation rather it is all an act of our own will.
• Double predestination (some Calvinist or Reformed): God actively chooses some to go to heaven and damns others to hell.

And what Catholics accept (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott):

• God’s knowledge is infinite. (De fide.)
• God knows all that is merely possible by the knowledge of simple intelligence (scientia simplicis intelligentiae). (De fide.)
• God knows all real things in the past, the present and the future (Scientia visionis). (De fide.)
• By knowledge of vision (scientia visionis) God also foresees the free acts of the rational creatures with infallible certainty. (De fide.)
• There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. (De fide.)
• There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will. (De fide.)
• The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistable. (De fide.)
• There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens. (De fide.)
• Grace cannot be merited by natural works either de condigno or de congruo. (De fide.)
• God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)
• God, by His Eternal Resolve of Will, has predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness. (De fide.)
• God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection. (De fide.)

 

[Robert_Sock]

My previous post about cognitive behavioral therapy has a lot to do with this thread. A major tenet of neuroscience is determinism, more specifically, that our thoughts and behavior are controlled by our brain. This is one of the reasons why psychotherapy was thought to only be good for behaviors that are “learned” and not for those that are rooted in neurobiology (not learned)… that is, until the evidence that I presented started coming out. Interestingly, despite my presenting scientific peer-reviewed and replicated studies, you still seem unconvinced which I see from you saying “maybe” CBT works. Fine then, lets get away from CBT working to normalize brain functions for regular psychiatric disorders like psychosis and OCD and lets look CBT with neuromotor disorders, like Tourette’s syndrome and chronic tic disorder.

Abbreviations- TSGS = Tourette Syndrome Global Scale (refer to green font)
Cognitive behavioral management of Tourette’s syndrome and chronic tic disorder in medicated and unmedicated samples

This to me shows that CBT should not just be looked at as simply repairing anxious thoughts/feelings but also even repairing brain function itself. We should theoretically be able to map which thoughts correspond with which brain area and use CBT to target and repair faulty brain areas. I’m sure there are limitations but then again we don’t know how much more thoughts and behavior can be used to control brain function.

Also, keep in mind I don’t claim that my view proves free-will but rather that it shows a problem with biological determinism - that behaviors are hardwired based on biology. My view also provides evidence for top-down causation in that CBT is MENTAL causation and it has been shown to normalize (i.e. control and/or direct) brain function!!!

I really do not intend to criticize, but why are you so hung up on CBT when there are so many other forms of therapy utilized by psychotherapist? For example:

Art Therapy

Coaching

Behavior Modification

Humanistic

Integrative

Jungian

Psychoanalytic

EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing)

Existential

Family Systems

Interpersonal

**Psychodynamic (this happens to be the one that I would most likely think would help those who suffered childhood emotional abuse)
**
Transactional Analysis

Transpersonal Therapy

There are probably several other forms of therapy that I think would also apply.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Even if CBT was proven to be effective in treating every other mental illness, which as a psychologist I know is far, far from the truth, unless it is clearly shown to correct adult survivors of emotional abuse they suffered in childhood, which are deeply buried in the unconscious, it’s of no relevance to this thread. The bottom line, adult survivors of emotional abuse as children have a somewhat limited free will when it comes to sexual promiscuity and drug and alcohol abuse, and CBT will not correct this.

You seem to be making this an all-or-nothing conclusion based on one issue, i.e. childhood emotional abuse. That is faulty reasoning because I’ve shown how CBT is effective when it comes to other conditions. It’s important to keep in mind that CBT was not always effective even in the things that it has currently been proven to be effective for. It had to be invented or developed first, and then tailored and tweaked to fit each illness that it deals with. I believe the same goes for childhood abuse.

I’m also skeptical based on anecdotal evidence of people recovering from disorders like sexual addiction. I mostly heard of these from the Christian community, usually after conversion. I’ve heard of more drastic changes among inmates and prostitutes who experience religious intervention. Not sure if you’ve actually looked into these cases to try to find patterns, see what works and what doesn’t, and how it can apply to your scenario.

BTW, I focus on CBT only because you brought up the issue of free-will. And if free-will means or involves being able to control your environment and biology, then there’s evidence that we can do this using CBT.

 

[Robert_Sock]

You seem to be making this an all-or-nothing conclusion based on one issue, i.e. childhood emotional abuse. That is faulty reasoning because I’ve shown how CBT is effective when it comes to other conditions. It’s important to keep in mind that CBT was not always effective even in the things that it has currently been proven to be effective for. It had to be invented or developed first, and then tailored and tweaked to fit each illness that it deals with. I believe the same goes for childhood abuse.

I’m also skeptical based on anecdotal evidence of people recovering from disorders like sexual addiction. I mostly heard of these from the Christian community, usually after conversion. I’ve heard of more drastic changes among inmates and prostitutes who experience religious intervention. Not sure if you’ve actually looked into these cases to try to find patterns, see what works and what doesn’t, and how it can apply to your scenario.

BTW, I focus on CBT only because you brought up the issue of free-will. And if free-will means or involves being able to control your environment and biology, then there’s evidence that we can do this using CBT.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14821575&postcount=1

Please reread the purpose of this threat as linked above again and then come up with a well-accepted article showing how CBT is effective in treating adults that were neglected emotionally as children. You seem to be claiming that it would be effective if tailored for that purpose. Well then, back yourself up with a well-accepted study that supports your claim.