YHWH Alleluia!

[Huiou_Theou]

I was reading the recent ruling from the Vatican concerning the use of YHWH in liturgy, and am quite puzzled. I am not really interested in debating this, but just getting a feel for what people think…

In the Septuagint (LXX), the Tetragrammon YHWH – is almost always replaced with Kyrios. (LORD). And in the Latin a similar tradition exists for God’s personal name in a liturgical setting.

But, I am quite puzzled at the total insistence of non-use of the name in a liturgical setting. The Jewish community obviously does use it when they say Hallel YHWH – praised be Yhwh.
The Greek speaking people did NOT understand Jewish words, but in the bible there are embedded transliterations – eg: SOUND ALIKES – eg: Cephas (KEPHA) is the name Rock in Aramaic, not Greek – Yet a sound alike is spelled out in the Greek.
So, in John (in english bibles) we are told Jesus named him Cephas.

The reason I bring this up, is that there is one word which is a transliteration of the hebrew phrase Hallel YHWH. In Latin leading H’s are swallowed when borrowing from Greek, so it became allelYiH , alleluia, (Which prots. will put the asperation (H) back in for Halleluia to snub the Latin swallowing.) But, none the less, on the passover feast there are psalms which explicitly start with Hallel JAH eg: alleluia.

Most notably the small hallel, and the great hallel psalms associated with the exodus – and esp. the passover.

But the word means, literally, “praised be YHWH.”

Clearly, then, the church from the very beginning has spoken at least PART of the un-pronouncable name whenever “alleluia” is said. Am I mistaken, or is this word also used in the Latin Rites in Rome? or do they not sing or say alleluia, but substitute another word?

The Jewish community, too, recites the Hallel psalms during the passover, both of them, so what is the real point of avoiding pronouncing the name in the scriptures? (Is this just discipline for the mass, or do they intend that people not to sing Hallel Yahweh in private, either?)

What do you all think?
(P.S. No disobediance is encouraged…!)

 

[DaveBj]

First of all, Protestants don’t reinstate the initial h to “snub” the swallowing of the aspiration in Latin; they pronounce it because the Hebrew original of the word begins with an h.

More specifically to your question, the -jah in “hallelujah” is allowed because it is not a complete pronunciation of the full name JHWH. Many Old Testament names end in the same -jah, and their pronunciation is not proscribed in any way.

I have not read the full vatican doc’s, but I believe that banning the pronunciation of the full name JHWH in public Catholic worship was done to avoid offending the sensitivities of Jews, whose practice is not to pronounce it in a scrupulous effort to avoid “taking it in vain.”

DaveBj

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Hi Dave.

Just so I understand, you would say that praise be JAH – is permissible because it does not say God’s special revealed name – YHWH – although the word Alleluia means “praised be YHWH?”

And you would agree that the original Hebrew was two words “HALLEL YH**” which ?might? have been spoken if not written, and which protestants could certainly have put in their bibles, as Hallel YAH or YHWH – but they only chose to go one sound closer to the Hebrew original, instead of all the way?

If so, do you think the Catholic church would accept
eg: in the songs the OCP has, perhaps the use of “Yah”

So we could sing “Yah! I know you are near…”?

Thanks, I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut, it helps some!

Anyone else chime in too.! I am curious how many people would be upset by having their (?favorite/popular?) songs stripped of a syllable…and if someone has a link to the actual Vatican artilce, please post – I haven’t the time to search, but am really curious about this!

Thanks!!!

 

[de_profundis]

We’re still singing YHWH songs in my parish, there’s been no word from the parish priest on this and I can find no mention of the ban by our bishop… should I ask my priest why this is so?

Whilst my first impression was, “What? Are we going to stop eating pork too?” I soon recoiled and thought “when in doubt, just obey”

 

[japhy]

Just so I understand, you would say that praise be JAH – is permissible because it does not say God’s special revealed name – YHWH – although the word Alleluia means “praised be YHWH?”

And you would agree that the original Hebrew was two words “HALLEL YH**” which ?might? have been spoken if not written, and which protestants could certainly have put in their bibles, as Hallel YAH or YHWH – but they only chose to go one sound closer to the Hebrew original, instead of all the way?

The Hebrew word means “Praised be YHWH”, but the word is “Praised be YH”, just like the name Isaiah means “Salvation is of YHWH”, but the word is “Salvation is of YH”.

Many Hebrew words used “Yah” as a stand-in for the whole divine name. That doesn’t mean “YH” and “YHWH” are identical, but the one is a symbolic synonym for the other.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Japhy,

The Hebrew word means “Praised be YHWH”, but the word is “Praised be YH”, just like the name Isaiah means “Salvation is of YHWH”, but the word is “Salvation is of YH”.

That’s awesome! I had no idea Isaiah meant that. So, Isaiah, it would seem is a re-ordered version of the name Jesus – “God saves”
I wonder why Isaiah’s name has the YH part, but Jesus’ doesn’t.


“Is”, as in Is-ra-el is the common word for “man” – so maybe “aiah” is the salvation part. I dunno, “Isaiah, I know you are near…” (hmm, too confusing), perhaps “AiAh, I know you are near…”

:harp:

One of these days, I am going to have to break down and learn Hebrew/Aramaic/& assorted dialects. I thought starting with Greek would give me most of that – but, often, the Hebrew ‘name’ words aren’t explained (eg: Isaiah), Tobit, Raphael, etc. etc.

So, what do you think, would the liturgists be happy with changing YHWH to AiAh, or some such thing?

 

[japhy]

So, Isaiah, it would seem is a re-ordered version of the name Jesus – “God saves” I wonder why Isaiah’s name has the YH part, but Jesus’ doesn’t.

Because “Isaiah” is far less removed from the actual Hebrew name than “Jesus” is.

“Isaiah” in Hebrew is more like “Yesayahu”. “Jesus” in Hebrew is more like “Yehoshua” or perhaps just “Yeshua”. (The bold part is the reference to YHWH.)

“Jesus” means “YHWH saves” or “YHWH rescues”, whereas “Isaiah” means “Salvation is/of YHWH”. The names are closely related, yes.

So, what do you think, would the liturgists be happy with changing YHWH to AiAh, or some such thing?

First of all, I’d prefer if the “liturgists” reviewed the Church’s documents on sacred music and worked toward a general restoration of Gregorian chant and polyphony.

Second, the name “Yahweh” (for “YHWH”) has some meaning to people. It should be replaced by an equally meaningful word or phrase. “O Lord” works; “Lord” (just a single note instead of two) works too.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Thanks Japhy. !

As in, Vatican II, which said Gregorian was supposed to have preference of place… ? You know your stuff.

Any other people who like the “pastoral” part of the Vatican II council, who perhaps have reasons why (besides sensitivity to our Israelite brothers) they think this change is taking place?

I mean, looking in the CCC, I noticed a little while ago that it says we are “not people of the book”, but rather of the word; or something like that – I didn’t memorize it.

But I notice in Vatican II that Islam and Judaism are both mentioned as worshiping the same God. So, I’m just curious – since Islams say (something like) Catholics can be slaves because they are people of the “book” – it seems like the bishops were willing to do the slap the fingers thing for that one – but now people are suggesting that the Church is bending over (so to speak) for the Jewish people.

Any thoughts, is this just “arbitrary”, or have I overlooked something in the liturgy?

Are there any liturgists out there who could clarify how using the YHWH (however it is said) might conflict with the Lord’s supper, or something? That seems to be the part of the topic I haven’t heard anything on yet…

A Pax descend on you all!
–Andrew

 

[Freshman88]

I have not read the full vatican doc’s, but I believe that banning the pronunciation of the full name JHWH in public Catholic worship was done to avoid offending the sensitivities of Jews, whose practice is not to pronounce it in a scrupulous effort to avoid “taking it in vain.”

I hope this isn’t the case at all. Why should the Jews have any say in our mass?

I’m going to have to dig up the document now. Does anyone have a link?

 

[thereseozi]

We’re still singing YHWH songs in my parish, there’s been no word from the parish priest on this and I can find no mention of the ban by our bishop… should I ask my priest why this is so?

Whilst my first impression was, “What? Are we going to stop eating pork too?” I soon recoiled and thought “when in doubt, just obey”

Hi, Here are two articles on the subject if this helps…

zenit.org/article-23414?l=english
Vatican Says “Yahweh” Not to Be Pronounced

zenit.org/article-24326?l=english
Why “Yahweh” Isn’t Used in Catholic Liturgy

 

[japhy]

As in, Vatican II, which said Gregorian was supposed to have preference of place… ? You know your stuff.

Thanks.

Any other people who like the “pastoral” part of the Vatican II council, who perhaps have reasons why (besides sensitivity to our Israelite brothers) they think this change is taking place?

This is not a “Vatican II” related change. Vatican II did not change the policy on the use of the Divine Name. Use of YHWH is very localized; not many songs use the name, and most of them were written 30 years ago. They just have infernal “staying power”.

Here are some of the reasons the Church gave.

1. 
   *]Sensitivity to the Jewish practice of not speaking the name
   *]It has not been the traditional practice of the Church to use the name
   *]The word “Lord” (Kurios in Greek) was used as a substitute for the Divine Name, as Adonai had been used by Israel
   

   Are there any liturgists out there who could clarify how using the YHWH (however it is said) might conflict with the Lord’s supper, or something?

   How ever could it conflict with “the Lord’s supper”?

 

[CantorumNovum]

Hi Dave.

If so, do you think the Catholic church would accept
eg: in the songs the OCP has, perhaps the use of “Yah”

So we could sing “Yah! I know you are near…”?

Thanks, I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut, it helps some!

Anyone else chime in too.! I am curious how many people would be upset by having their (?favorite/popular?) songs stripped of a syllable…and if someone has a link to the actual Vatican artilce, please post – I haven’t the time to search, but am really curious about this!

Thanks!!!

For the song “You Are Near”, a simple substitution could be “Lord God, I know you are near,” I think that OCP will go that way if they can (i.e. if the composer permits it). Something tells me that they will get a lot of heat from that particular composer over that song. I could be wrong.

Of course, there are other songs where such a substitution would not work, e.g. “YHWH is the God of My Salvation” by Gregory Norbert. That first line would have to be re-worked. Or perhaps the song should just be retired, heh-heh.

 

[chosen_people]

I hope this isn’t the case at all. Why should the Jews have any say in our mass?

Everything the Jews had to say about mass was said by Einstein

 

[adelore]

My thoughts after reading the links go to this.

If the name of YHWH (spoken Yahweh) are taken out of songs, books and no one ever speaks Gods name, then how will future generations ever know about Gods name? Or maybe I just don’t fully understand what both links were saying?

For years, growing up as a craddle Catholic and going to CC I never knew Gods name. Then just a couple of years ago I find out that God has a personal name, YHWH (Yahweh). Needless to say I was shocked that I had never been taught that.

Then when I came back to the Catholic Church, I find all kinds of places where the name of Yahweh has been used. (books, that I have ordered, my Catholic Bibles, songs ect.) And now to read they want to remove the name of God in books, songs ect. I must say, (again if I understand correctly what I read in the links) that I am saddened by this.

It’s not that I use Gods name Yahweh, everyday or even in every prayer, but just to know His wonderful name has had very special meaning to me.

Ok just my thoughts.

 

[japhy]

If the name of YHWH (spoken Yahweh) are taken out of songs, books and no one ever speaks Gods name, then how will future generations ever know about Gods name? Or maybe I just don’t fully understand what both links were saying?

The name “Yahweh” (which is how we think the tetragrammaton is pronounced) is not to be used in liturgical settings. The Church is not banning the word from use everywhere, just from the liturgy.

Although you do make an interesting point, since certain “believers” today think God’s name is Jehovah. No, I think the Catholic Church will faithfully preserve the name “YHWH”.

For years, growing up as a craddle Catholic and going to CC I never knew Gods name. Then just a couple of years ago I find out that God has a personal name, YHWH (Yahweh). Needless to say I was shocked that I had never been taught that.

Then your educators (whoever they were) never taught you at all about Moses? Or the Old Testament?

And now to read they want to remove the name of God in books, songs ect.

No, that is not the case. It is not to be used in the liturgy. You can write the name Yahweh in a book. The Church will not hunt you down. You do not have to burn your books. You can still say the name in personal prayer.

 

[DaveBj]

The Hebrew word means “Praised be YHWH”, but the word is “Praised be YH”, just like the name Isaiah means “Salvation is of YHWH”, but the word is “Salvation is of YH”.

Many Hebrew words used “Yah” as a stand-in for the whole divine name. That doesn’t mean “YH” and “YHWH” are identical, but the one is a symbolic synonym for the other.

Well said, japhy. Couldn’t have said it better myself

I hope this isn’t the case at all. Why should the Jews have any say in our mass?

I’m going to have to dig up the document now. Does anyone have a link?

The Jews have no say in our Mass. The name JHWH is not used in either the ordinary or the proper of the Mass. It is used in some songs, and its use has been proscribed, not by the Jews, but by the competent authorities in Rome, out of respect for Jewish usage.

DaveBj (and in keeping with japhy’s post, the Bj stands for, but does not equate to, the full name Bjornstad)

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Thanks.

This is not a “Vatican II” related change. Vatican II did not change the policy on the use of the Divine Name. Use of YHWH is very localized; not many songs use the name, and most of them were written 30 years ago. They just have infernal “staying power”.

I realize that Vatican II did not change the liturgical use of the word YHWH, KYRIOS, LORD, all I was noticing is that should the preference be based on non-offense toward the Jewish people on the count of sensitivity, then I was just surprised that there would be any “slap” of the fingers toward the Islamics, if that were the case. I tended to think, (as has been mentioned by others), that the Jewish and the Islamic opinions do not affect the mass, holy-mysteries, etc.

So, I was just thinking perhaps I overlooked something – because of appearances of this particular rubric.
eg: The mass is said “ad Patram” (Sp?) – “to the father” and perhaps that is associated with the privelege of his son who says “my father” rather than us – who say “our father”

How ever could it conflict with “the Lord’s supper”?

Well, I am not sure – but, since these other religions do not have the authoritative say with regard to the Last Supper – I was just noticing that (for example) Alleluia is not said during all liturgical seasons, nor at any old time in the seasons that it is said — but is itself has a specific place in the mass.
eg: before the proclamation of the Gospel. etc.

I suppose, that since “YHWH I know you are near” is sung at a different time – perhaps that was theologically improper or something. (I haven’t researched it, I just know that such relationships often pop up in these types of changes when probed carefully).

Also, I was thinking that the use of the name of YHWH which was revealed to his people in the Exodus eg: as the name to identify God to his chosen people – said, essentially three times – had to have been spoken by Moses in order to carry out God’s command.

I was noticing specifically, in Psalm 110(111) that begins “Alleluia” (Hallel YH) which is then a Hebrew alphabet poem, that it says ~V9: “Unutterable is his name and worshipful; vain without his fear is learning;”

The “unutterable”, then, seems to be hyperbole, or perhaps
piety for the word “Alleluia” starts this very poem. The same Alleluia exists in psalms 111,112,113,114 – where psalm 114 talks about the name Jesus/Isaiah in figure – "…I invoke his name. … till I called upon the Lord, Save me, Lord, in my peril.

Does unutterable, then, mean the name can not be rendered in one voicing – YHWH – but rather it must be all three sounds delivered to Moses? or is his “name” then God Saves (Jesus/Isaiah) the point of psalm 114?

It just seems that these psalms are going out of their way TO name God in connection with the last supper.

P.S. Thanks to whomever said this was only meant to be a liturgical change – and not a private one. I was really beginning to wonder if perhaps I was unwittingly doing something wrong by singing Alleluia, Hallel YHWH! … in private /& private Eucharistic adoration!

Peace,

 

[japhy]

eg: The mass is said “ad Patram” (Sp?) – “to the father” and perhaps that is associated with the privelege of his son who says “my father” rather than us – who say “our father”

I’m not sure I understand you. Yes, the Mass is addressed primarily “to the Father”.

Alleluia is not said during all liturgical seasons, nor at any old time in the seasons that it is said — but is itself has a specific place in the mass. eg: before the proclamation of the Gospel. etc.

Right. “Alleluia” is not said during Lent, and may be omitted if not sung. “Alleluia” is “suspended” during Lent because it is a penitential season and “Alleluia” is a particularly joyous phrase.

I suppose, that since “YHWH I know you are near” is sung at a different time – perhaps that was theologically improper or something.

When that song is used during the liturgy, the name “Yahweh” may not be mentioned.

I was noticing specifically, in Psalm 110(111) that begins “Alleluia” (Hallel YH) which is then a Hebrew alphabet poem, that it says ~V9: “Unutterable is his name and worshipful; vain without his fear is learning;”

What translation is that?

Thanks to whomever said this was only meant to be a liturgical change – and not a private one. I was really beginning to wonder if perhaps I was unwittingly doing something wrong by singing Alleluia, Hallel YHWH! … in private /& private Eucharistic adoration!

I did, among others. The name “Yahweh” is not be part of a liturgical celebration (although whether you may privately/personally say the name during the liturgy, I do not know).

Please stop saying that “Alleluia” = “Hallel Y[a]hw[e]h”. It doesn’t. “Alleluia” = “Hallel Y[a]h”. You can say “Alleluia” or “Hallelujah” at Mass without breaking the rule. The name in question is “Yahweh”, the full name, not abbreviated as in “Yah”.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

When that song is used during the liturgy, the name “Yahweh” may not be mentioned.
…
What translation is that?

That’s the Ronald Knox translation, student edition.

Please stop saying that “Alleluia” = “Hallel Y[a]hw[e]h”. It doesn’t.

I didn’t – reread my post. I said “Hallel YH”, when I said Hallel YHWH it was my comment about what I said in private (publicly).

The name in question is “Yahweh”, the full name, not abbreviated as in “Yah”.

Which of the persons of the trinity does “Yahweh” refer to?
(I suspect it is the Father… ?)
ergo: my question concerning “ad patrem”.

Oh well, thanks Japhy.
May God bless you this day.

Peace,
–Andrew.

 

[japhy]

I didn’t – reread my post. I said “Hallel YH”, when I said Hallel YHWH it was my comment about what I said in private (publicly).

I figured that by your juxtaposition of “Alleluia” and “Hallel YHWH” you were equating the two.

I guess you’re asking if it’s permitted to say, for example, “Alleluia” in private prayers during Lent? I would say that’s against the spirit of the reason the word is “suspended” during Lent; I would personally advise against using the word “Alleluia” during Lent at all.

As for saying “Hallel YHWH” outside of the liturgy, the Church is not going to stop you.

Which of the persons of the trinity does “Yahweh” refer to? (I suspect it is the Father… ?) ergo: my question concerning “ad patrem”.

But the Son uses the phrase “I AM” about himself (in John 8, I believe); and the epistle to the Hebrews says that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and always (alluding, perhaps, to the “was, is, is to come”-ness of the Divine Name). The Name describes all three Persons – all three are.