YHWH: Jesus to Mormons, the Father to other Christians

[zerinus]

I’ve picked it up from the very polite and pleasant missionaries at my door over the years, and from a certain very devout Mormon co-worker and good friend who worked closely with me for a long time, and whom I respect a great deal. He is the one who gave me the PoGP and D&C. Unfortunately, when we retired we both moved away from there and I don’t know where he is now.

No missionary worthy of the name would teach you these things; and your co-workers who taught you these must have been very ill informed.

Restating what they’ve told me:
– God the Father’s home in this universe is not Earth, but instead a planet orbiting the star Kronos

God the Father dwells in heaven. We have no idea in astronomical terms where that is, and how it relates to our three dimentional universe.

– God the Father acquired a body of Flesh and Bone in the same way that Jesus did, but not on Earth

We believe that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones as Jesus does; but it has not been revealed to us how He acquired His body of flesh and bones. Any statements made to that effect are speculation and not true LDS doctrine.

– Mormons know this to be true, because the Father and the Son together appeared to JS in their bodies of flesh and bone

We believe that the Father and the Son are two distinct personages and have bodies of flesh and bones; and that they appeared so to the Prophet Joseph smith. Beyond that nothing further is known or has been revealed.

– Jesus is a different and slightly lesser god than the Father; although Jesus is the first-born son and the vehicle through which all of creation came to be

We believe that the Father and Son are both God. We believe that the Son is subordinate to the Father because that is what the Bible teaches. Beyond that nothing further is revealed.

– God the Father has a wife and spirit-children; Jesus has a wife and spirit-children; any Mormon who wants to ascend to the third and highest level of heaven to become god over a planet of his own must also be sealed to a wife with whom he will bear spirit-children

That is NOT LDS doctrine. Nothing has been revealed about the Father or the Son having a wife in heaven and their wives bearing any kids.

– God over our Earth is Jesus, . . .

Nonsense! Jesus is God over the whole universe, not just of this Earth.

. . . who is a separate and distinct god from the Father;

The Son is a separate being from the Father.

. . . all references to JHWH/Elohim/Adonai in the OT are actually references to Jesus, . . .

Not true.

. . . even though Abraham, etc., didn’t realize it, and even though the name spoken to Moses through the burning bush was YHWH and not “Jesus”.

Don’t know what you are talking about. Not true.

– Mormons know the BoM is true because God has spoken it to their hearts; archeological and historical evidence verifying them would be nice, but are not really necessary because they know God is speaking to them

Mormons know that the Book of Mormon is true by the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

If any of these are incorrect, please provide the correct them. I have a lot of respect for the hard work the members of the Mormon church do in living a Christian life the way Jesus meant us to do. My stumbling block, if you will, is that the nature of God as you understand it is very, very different from what I understand.

If you are serious about investigating Mormonism, read the Book of Mormon with an open mind. The Spirit of the Lord will witness the truth of it to you if you do.

zerinus

 

[christianley]

They always call it speculation when the Mormons are embarrassed about what they teach even if every prophet since Joseph Smith has taught it.

 

[IanS]

I have Mormon missionaries coming over this Saturday to specifically talk about their view of Jesus Christ. What can I expect to hear from them and what truths would be most important to reveal to them?

 

[Tmaque]

Mormons know that the Book of Mormon is true by the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

If you are serious about investigating Mormonism, read the Book of Mormon with an open mind. The Spirit of the Lord will witness the truth of it to you if you do.

zerinus

Zerinius,

I bear witness to you that I know the Catholic Church is true by the testimony of the Holy Spirit. I’ve asked God to guide me to truth with an open mind. I’ve read the Book of Mormon many times and have prayed about it, and I bear my testimony that I know that it is a false history and that the LDS Church is false. It is not the Church of Jesus Christ.

Zerinius, if you would just open up your heart and mind to the whisperings of the Holy Spirit, he will bear witness to you of the truth of the Catholic Church.

 

[majick275]

No missionary worthy of the name would teach you these things; and your co-workers who taught you these must have been very ill informed.

please… you have been misinforming people here about Mormon doctrine from day one.

God the Father dwells in heaven. We have no idea in astronomical terms where that is, and how it relates to our three dimentional universe.

unless you read the pearl of great price and attend the Temple ceremony. Then you know he lives by the star KOLOB. You also learn he started out on a different world that had a Satan and everything else.

We believe that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones as Jesus does; but it has not been revealed to us how He acquired His body of flesh and bones. Any statements made to that effect are speculation and not true LDS doctrine.

that is inaccurate it has been consistently taught by LDS prophets and Apostles and is in current LDS teaching manuals. go to www.lds.org and search for eternal progression. you will see from LDS sources.

We believe that the Father and the Son are two distinct personages and have bodies of flesh and bones; and that they appeared so to the Prophet Joseph smith. Beyond that nothing further is known or has been revealed.

not true. Mormon general authorities have published in canonized scripture that the Holy Ghost was the “shared mind” of the Father and son. This was later decanonized but not denounced and it’s source (lectures on faith) is still listed in the Doctrine and Covenants as “profitable for instruction”. Other LDS prophets and Apostles have stated officially that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit. MUCH more has been revealed on this in
Mormon temples.

We believe that the Father and Son are both God. We believe that the Son is subordinate to the Father because that is what the Bible teaches. Beyond that nothing further is revealed.

and how does that reconcile with the testimony of the witnesses in the Book of Mormon where it states the father, son and holy ghost are one God? what about the parts in the book of momron where it clearly states that the father and the son are the same and that GOD himself came down to earth as Jesus?

That is NOT LDS doctrine. Nothing has been revealed about the Father or the Son having a wife in heaven and their wives bearing any kids.

except by mormon prophets and apostles

Nonsense! Jesus is God over the whole universe, not just of this Earth.

what about other universes? the temple teaches otherwise

The Son is a separate being from the Father.

Mormons teach this

Not true.

except eviddence proves otherwise

Don’t know what you are talking about. Not true.

see above

Mormons know that the Book of Mormon is true by the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

then they must have been deceived

If you are serious about investigating Mormonism, read the Book of Mormon with an open mind. The Spirit of the Lord will witness the truth of it to you if you do.

zerinus

don’t drink the koolaid.worship god, read the bible, go to a CHRISTIAN church, especially a Catholic one

 

[PaulDupre]

zerinus:

That is NOT LDS doctrine. Nothing has been revealed about the Father or the Son having a wife in heaven and their wives bearing any kids.

majick275:

except by mormon prophets and apostles

This really kills me. The Mormons’ “claim to fame” is that they have living prophets to guide them to ever-increasing truth. The missionaries stress this in their scripted “discussions” with investigators.

When Mormons like zerinus retreat into sola scriptura defenses to deny the embarassing teachings of these prophets, they negate the very thing that sets Mormons apart from other religions.

Of what value is Mormonism if their “prophets” just express personal opinions, which are no more valid than any Protestant preacher?

Every prophet from Joseph Smith to GBH has made references to the Mormon god having wives. The whole point of “celestial marriage” is to have wives in eternity. The temple endowment is clear that the purpose of the endowment is to allow Mormons to follow the same path to godhood that the heavenly father followed, including celestial marriage.

The Mormon Church has always taught that the heavenly father and his goddess wives bore us as spirit children. If it was never revealed, how did it get into all those Mormon teaching manuals? I taught Gospel Doctrine classes for 2 years and those manuals were very explicit about this LDS doctrine.

Paul

 

[Megatron]

This really kills me. The Mormons’ “claim to fame” is that they have living prophets to guide them to ever-increasing truth. The missionaries stress this in their scripted “discussions” with investigators.

When Mormons like zerinus retreat into sola scriptura defenses to deny the embarassing teachings of these prophets, they negate the very thing that sets Mormons apart from other religions.

Of what value is Mormonism if their “prophets” just express personal opinions, which are no more valid than any Protestant preacher?

Every prophet from Joseph Smith to GBH has made references to the Mormon god having wives. The whole point of “celestial marriage” is to have wives in eternity. The temple endowment is clear that the purpose of the endowment is to allow Mormons to follow the same path to godhood that the heavenly father followed, including celestial marriage.

The Mormon Church has always taught that the heavenly father and his goddess wives bore us as spirit children. If it was never revealed, how did it get into all those Mormon teaching manuals? I taught Gospel Doctrine classes for 2 years and those manuals were very explicit about this LDS doctrine.

Paul

I’ll do ya one better, Paul: I taught an Institute course on the D&C and in a teaching training session this particular doctrine and its symbolism was discussed explicitly.

I think your point is right on target, namely, if Mormon or anyone else for that matter can reduce the statements of modern day prophets to mere “opinions” when they don’t gel with what in vogue in SLC, what is the difference between Mormonism and charismatic protestantism?

Do you recall the priesthood manuals on presidents of the LDS church? (If you had already become Catholic by then, you didn’t miss much.) Something I could never wrap my mind around and quite understand was how certain segments and portions of the Journal of Discourses by Bringham Young were quoted verbatim, yet as we all well know, there are others which were mere “opinion”. I’m sorry, but you just can’t have it both ways.

 

[PaulDupre]

Exactly. Thanks, Mega.
Paul

 

[Nan_S]

I have Mormon missionaries coming over this Saturday to specifically talk about their view of Jesus Christ. What can I expect to hear from them and what truths would be most important to reveal to them?

For what to present to them, see post #3 above: God is One. There is only One God. Jesus is not a separate god, because there is only One God. Jesus is a distinct aspect of God like my nose is a distinct aspect of my face. (This mental picture, although shallow, will be hard for them to ignore whenever they look at you.)

For what to expect from them: A lot of soft-pedaling on the nature of Jesus coupled with repeated invitations to pray over the BoM and ask the spirit to tell you it is true. The BoM is the baby’s milk - it doesn’t contain the deeper secrets. They don’t want to scare you off.

If you get past the BoM and get into specifics, expect some of these which are stated at library.lds.org (search with keywords “Jesus God”). My thanks to majick275 who provided the link to www.lds.org and this library. It answered one of my original questions in this thread - According to this official Mormon source, YHWH of the OT is Jesus, but Elohim is the Father.

Written by Elder Robert D. Hales Of the First Quorum of the Seventy

– Jesus Christ is a god; he is the Jehovah of the Old Testament and the Savior of the New Testament

– Jesus Christ dwelt in the heavens with his Father, and we dwelt with them as spirit children of God the Father

– Jesus Christ is the creator of all things on earth, under the direction of his Father

– Jesus Christ is the Redeemer, our Savior; only he with a mortal mother and an immortal Father could fulfill the Atonement and die to save all mankind.

– Jesus taught us the physical characteristics of a resurrected being and told us that we could follow his example and that we would be able to progress and be like him.

– Jesus Christ leads and guides his church today through revelation to a prophet, President Spencer W. Kimball, and his counselors in the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles, the same organization that he established when he was here on earth

And you might also hear some of the following words written by President Spencer W. Kimball himself:

– It was He, Jesus Christ, our Savior, who was introduced to surprised listeners at Jordan, at the holy Mount of Transfiguration, at the temple of the Nephites, and in the grove at Palmyra, New York; and the introducing person was none other than his actual Father, the holy Elohim, in whose image he was and whose will he carried out.

– Many people have grown up with the idea that it was the Father who was in charge through the Old Testament history days whenever the title God or Lord was used.

– It is noteworthy that the Father, God, Elohim came to the earth upon each necessary occasion to introduce the Son to a new dispensation, to a new people; then Jesus Christ, the Son, carried forward his work.

– Jesus Christ is the God of this world. He has made it very plain in his many self-introductions. The Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed to Abraham, “My name is Jehovah.”

(continued next post)

 

[Nan_S]

(continued from previous post)

I also I found this, written by the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:

– There is no impropriety, therefore, in speaking of Jesus Christ as the Elder Brother of the rest of humankind. That He is by spiritual birth Brother to the rest of us is indicated in Hebrews: “Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people”. Let it not be forgotten, however, that He is essentially greater than any or all others, by reason (1) of His seniority as the oldest or firstborn; (2) of His unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal, or resurrected and glorified, Father; (3) of His selection and foreordination as the one and only Redeemer and Savior of the race; and (4) of His transcendent sinlessness.

– Jesus Christ is not the Father of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth, for He is one of them. He is The Son, as they are sons or daughters of Elohim. So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation.

While discovering the Mormon distinction between Elohim-Father and YHWH-Jesus, I also happened to find this which blurs the distinction completely: If the missionaries brought a copy of the PoGP, turn to Abraham Chapters 4-5 where it gives the Mormon account of the six days of creation and compare it to Genesis Chapters 1-2.

Genesis 1-2 throughout says Elohim - singular - created the heavens and the earth, and created man in His - singular - image. Genesis 1:26 is the only verse which uses plural words, but it is the “Royal We” usage with which kings have always emphasized their majesty, not split-personalities or invisible siamese twins.

In apparent contradiction to this, the PoGP Book of Abraham says the Gods - plural - instead of Elohim - singular - “counseled among themselves to form the heavens and the earth” (Abr 5:3). It’s very specific and repetitive on that point.

So who really created the universe, Elohim alone or the plural Gods? One of these sources must be wrong.

Have a nice chat with the missionaries. They enjoy cookies and caffeine-free tea.

Nan

 

[zerinus]

I have Mormon missionaries coming over this Saturday to specifically talk about their view of Jesus Christ. What can I expect to hear from them and what truths would be most important to reveal to them?

You would be a lot better off learning from them than revealing anything to them.

zerinus

 

[Megatron]

You would be a lot better off learning from them than revealing anything to them.

With all due respect, for the most part once you get this young men (and sometimes young women) off of their memorized presentation you quickly discover that they lack quite a bit of what I would consider fundamental biblical knowledge. This isn’t to say that they are not intelligent, but rather to demonstrate that their knowledge and freedom of thinking in this department isn’t there.

Besides, wasn’t it Joseph Smith himself that said that any aspect of truth that another taught that he himself didn’t not possess should be recognized and adapted into one’s life? Go find the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith off the ole’ bookshelf if you don’t believe me!

 

[IanS]

You would be a lot better off learning from them than revealing anything to them.

zerinus

Believe me, I’ve already learned plenty! :bigyikes:

This will be about my fourth or fifth visit with them. The last visit went for over two and a half hours. I’m sure they have an interesting “Investigator Record” on me by now, considering I spent about 75% of the time telling them about the Catholic faith. At first they actually seemed pretty interested in learning more about Catholicism. However, I noticed that he next time they came one of them was gone and had been replaced him with a much more militant Mormon. I think I heard the other guy call him “The Z man”. Hey wait a minute!

 

[Paul_G]

To the Mormons, Jesus is the firstborn son of an exalted “man” who became the god of this world. The man-god of Mormonism was made the god of this world because of his good works on another planet somewhere out in the universe. He “earned” godhood, and was thus appointed by a counsel of gods in the heavens to his high position as the god of planet Earth. The Mormon god of this world was a man, like all men, who became a god. This is what the celestial marriage and the temple vows are all about. LDS men, by doing their temple work, are striving for exaltation by which they, too, shall one day become gods. Their wives will be the mother goddesses of “their” world and with their husband will produce the population of their world. This is the Mormon doctrine of “eternal progression.” SOURCE

There are three major differences between the Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of the Mormon church. Here’s what Mormon’s believe:
1. Instead of the eternal Jesus co-equal with the Father, the Mormon Jesus was once a man who achieved godhood by his own virtuousness during a preincarnate existence. His spirit was then impregnated into the virgin Mary by the “Eternal Father” who came from the planet Kolob for the physical union with her.
2. Mormonism teaches that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers who competed for the opportunity to become the savior of planet earth. Jesus’ plan won approval and Lucifer rebelled and became the tempter and deceiver of planet Earth.
3. Mormonism teaches that Jesus is only one of many saviors who are each responsible for the salvation of the population of other planets like Earth. Mormon men are working with the promise that they, too, will eventually become gods and be given a planet of their own to populate. This will be accomplished by their intercourse with many wives who will bear millions of spirit children to inhabit the bodies of the people on their planet.
The Jesus of the Bible taught that salvation is a free gift anyone can receive by accepting Him as your personal Savior, not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 4:6 & 11:6; Philippians 3:9). The LDS Jesus taught that your level of exaltation was based on faith plus works determined by men. Thus, the Jesus of the Bible and the LDS Jesus can’t be the same Jesus, as they taught mutually exclusive doctrine.SOURCE

From my point of view it would be far more interesting for me to converse with you on the above points if they where taken from LDS sources about these topics, rather that what professional sophists declare we believe or don’t believe about them.

Paul

 

[zerinus]

From my point of view it would be far more interesting for me to converse with you on the above points if they where taken from LDS sources about these topics, rather that what professional sophists declare we believe or don’t believe about them.

Paul

Exactly! I could point you to thousands of websites on the Internet which argue that Catholics are not Christians; but that is not my intent. The author of this website evidently believes that Catholics aren’t Christians either. Here is a quote from him:

The REAL Christian symbol of REAL faith is the Christian manifesting the gifts of the Spirit. Those looking for symbols in the church or “wherever” they can find them are NOT Christian people.

Let me repeat that. THEY ARE NOT CHRISTIAN PEOPLE. I had all these symbols when I was a practicing Roman Catholic. I left this to become a Christian. I didn’t search for this as a Christian.

The author of this site had been a former Catholic. He tells us his own story here:

cnview.com/some_about_me.htm

And here are some more of his rants (or of those he favours) against the Catholic Church:

cnview.com/on_line_resources/the_truth_about_roman_catholics_final.htm
cnview.com/on_line_resources/ecumenism.htm
cnview.com/testimomy_of_nita_haught_neckar.htm

If this website is a reliable source about Mormonism, then presumably it is equally reliable about Catholicism, right? Go figure!

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Believe me, I’ve already learned plenty! :bigyikes:

Glad to hear it. I look forward to your baptism shortly!

. . . I think I heard the other guy call him “The Z man”. Hey wait a minute!

Ah! Didn’t you know we are a special breed? There aren’t that many Z men around!

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

With all due respect, for the most part once you get this young men (and sometimes young women) off of their memorized presentation you quickly discover that they lack quite a bit of what I would consider fundamental biblical knowledge. This isn’t to say that they are not intelligent, but rather to demonstrate that their knowledge and freedom of thinking in this department isn’t there.

There may be some truth in that; but those young missionaries are not there to teach their own thing. They are not clever theologians and smart debaters. They are mostly young men or women around 20 years pf age whose main interest is unlikely to be theology. They are not schooled and disciplined in those fields. They are representatives of the LDS Church to convey the message that the Church (and the Lord) wants them to convey; and that message is a simple one. It is the glad tidings of the restoration of the gospel. That is it. That is their message. They are not there to debate and argue. If somebody is not interested in their message, it is not their job to argue with them. Their job in that situation is to politely take their leave and carry their message to someone else who may be more interested.

zerinus

 

[Nan_S]

Hi, Z!

If this website is a reliable source about Mormonism, then presumably it is equally reliable about Catholicism, right? Go figure!

zerinus

Aint that the truth!!! That’s why I’m now looking at www.lds.org.

Can you clear up for me the question I gave at the end of Post #30 above? Genesis says Elohim (the Father alone) created the heavens and the earth and created man in His (singular pronoun) image, but the PoGP Book of Abraham says the Gods - plural - instead of Elohim - singular - “counseled among themselves to form the heavens and the earth” (Abr 5:3).

Which is correct?

I also heard somewhere that the Mormons regard some of their books as as merely non-canonical and simply “useful for instruction”? Is the Book of Abraham one of those?

I’m not trying to bait you. I really would like to know.

Nan

 

[PaulDupre]

However, I noticed that the next time they came one of them was gone and had been replaced him with a much more militant Mormon. I think I heard the other guy call him “The Z man”. Hey wait a minute!

The Z man was probably a “Zone Leader”. An LDS Mission is divided into zones presided over by zone leaders, senior missionaries who have shown themselves particularly adept at leadership. Zones are divided into districts, presided over by district leaders. Missionaries report directly to their DLs, DLs report directly to their ZLs and the ZLs report directly to the mission president. But any missionary can contact his mission president directly if he feels the need to do so.

Paul

 

[zerinus]

Can you clear up for me the question I gave at the end of Post #30 above? Genesis says Elohim (the Father alone) created the heavens and the earth and created man in His (singular pronoun) image, but the PoGP Book of Abraham says the Gods - plural - instead of Elohim - singular - “counseled among themselves to form the heavens and the earth” (Abr 5:3).

Which is correct?

We think that both are correct. They are just two different versions or narrations of the same thing. In one sense of the term, God the Father created all things, because He was the prime mover, and the one in charge of the entire process, and therefore He was the ultimate Creator. In another sense, we know from the Bible that He delegated that task to others. For example, the Bible teaches that God the Father created all things through Jesus Christ His Son (John 1:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2). If I donated the money, and built the biggest skyscraper in the middle of New York, I would go down in history as the “builder” of the biggest sky scraper in New York. But that would not mean that I drew the architectural plans, poured down the concrete, set up the iron girders, drove the cranes, laid the bricks, put in all the electrical wiring etc. by my own beautiful bare hands. The same principle applies here.

I also heard somewhere that the Mormons regard some of their books as as merely non-canonical and simply “useful for instruction”? Is the Book of Abraham one of those?

No, that does not apply to the Book of Abraham. Everything that is in what we call the “standard works of the Church,” which consists of the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, is canonical and considered scripture and the word of God by us.

zerinus