YHWH: Jesus to Mormons, the Father to other Christians

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zerinus said:
We think that both are correct. They are just two different versions or narrations of the same thing. In one sense of the term, God the Father created all things, because He was the prime mover, and the one in charge of the entire process, and therefore He was the ultimate Creator. In another sense, we know from the Bible that He delegated that task to others. For example, the Bible teaches that God the Father created all things through Jesus Christ His Son (John 1:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2). If I donated the money, and built the biggest skyscraper in the middle of New York, I would go down in history as the “builder” of the biggest sky scraper in New York. But that would not mean that I drew the architectural plans, poured down the concrete, set up the iron girders, drove the cranes, laid the bricks, put in all the electrical wiring etc. by my own beautiful bare hands. The same principle applies here.
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When you make your statement that God the Father was the Owner of the property and God the Son was the General Contractor, my question is according to our, I mean my former endowment “ceremony”, what would that make the Arch-Angel Michael, the Superintendent? What about when Michael became Adam, would that make him a sub-contractor to the Earth building project?
 
Catholic_Guy said:
When you make your statement that God the Father was the Owner of the property and God the Son was the General Contractor, my question is according to our, I mean my former endowment “ceremony”, what would that make the Arch-Angel Michael, the Superintendent? What about when Michael became Adam, would that make him a sub-contractor to the Earth building project?
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Your attempt to mock LDS doctrine does not wash. I had given ample scriptural references showing you how according to the Bible Jesus created all things under the direction of the Father (John 1:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2). Unless you want to mock the Bible, what we teach is nothing different from what the Bible teaches. Now if you want to boast about your apostasy from the LDS Church, go ahead and boast. But remember what Joseph Smith said: God will never acknowledge apostates and traitors.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
Your attempt to mock LDS doctrine does not wash. I had given ample scriptural references showing you how according to the Bible Jesus created all things under the direction of the Father (John 1:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2). Unless you want to mock the Bible, what we teach is nothing different from what the Bible teaches. Now if you want to boast about your apostasy from the LDS Church, go ahead and boast. But remember what Joseph Smith said: God will never acknowledge apostates and traitors.

zerinus
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So you don’t want to answer the question, typical. Remember “Sacred” not “Secret”, unless you are old enough to have been through during the eighties, if not I can understand the ignorance.
 
zerinus said:
. Unless you want to mock the Bible, what we teach is nothing different from what the Bible teaches.
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Hmm…where in the Bible does it mention us humans becoming God’s on our own planets? PLoygamy being morally acceptable or allowed? Jesus and Lucifier where brothers?
 
zerinus said:
Now if you want to boast about your apostasy from the LDS Church, go ahead and boast. But remember what Joseph Smith said: God will never acknowledge apostates and traitors.

zerinus
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I remember what Joseph Smith said, do you?

Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. —Joseph Smith
 
Karin said:
Hmm…where in the Bible does it mention us humans becoming God’s on our own planets? PLoygamy being morally acceptable or allowed? Jesus and Lucifier where brothers?
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That’s why a restoration was needed.

Paul
 
The Bible supports Christian doctrine and is especially supportive of Catholic doctrine. (at least when taken in context) The Book of Mormon doesn’t even support Mormon doctrine, has been meaningfully changed more than once and isn’t used to establish LDS church structure or practice on anything unique to the LDS church. (which is probably why it is what it is pushed by missionaries)The D&C forms the basis of most Mormon teaching and practice and was obviously made up to support Joseph Smith’s designs. The Pearl of Great Price seems to be used less and less and is usually parceled to other books as “footnotes” in most current LDS teaching materials. (which isn’t surprising since it is the easiest to prove a fake and contains the really “weird” stuff). The Temple ceremony isn’t canonical at all but is certainly “higher” than scripture as it is “direct revelation” in a “special” environment.

Now what do we get when we look at Mormon scripture as a whole viewed through the context of what Mormon Prophets and Apostles have said those scriptures mean? (remember they claim to speak for God) and especially what do they “show” in the Temple about these things?

They would have us believe that God was once a man like us and “earned” his salvation, that he is our literal father (and that we have literal mothers in heaven), Jesus is our literal brother (and Satan) and that we can “earn” the same divinity that our father in heaven currently has in that we can also have children in heaven that we would send down to worlds that we create and they will need a savior too. (which brings up the question “who died for heavenly fathers sins?”)

This is all easily verified by LDS sources. Look it up for yourself on the LDS church website and read it right out of their own mouths rather than just get the prooftexts, out of context “spin” that amgid/zerinus would try to perpetrate on you.

Perhaps Joseph Smith should have considered his own words about traitors before doing what he did to his own counselors, country, God and victims.:mad:
 
zerinus said:
If I donated the money, and built the biggest skyscraper in the middle of New York, I would go down in history as the “builder” of the biggest sky scraper in New York. But that would not mean that I drew the architectural plans, poured down the concrete, set up the iron girders, drove the cranes, laid the bricks, put in all the electrical wiring etc. by my own beautiful bare hands. The same principle applies here.

zerinus
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If I understand you correctly, Elohim-Father had the vision and is the source of all creation, but the architects and laborers of the actual work were the Gods (Jesus and other spirit-children of Elohim?) That conclusion is a little hard to see when placing Genesis and the Book of Abraham side-by-side.

In Genesis, Elohim-Father had the vision, drew up the plans, and also directly worked all the details of creation. In the Book of Abraham 4:1, the Lord (Elohim?) merely said “Let us go down” then assumes the role of observer; the vision, the plans, and the details are all the work of the various Gods. The original vision of creation itself is not even Elohim’s, it is from “one among them that was like unto God” (Jesus?) (Abr 3:24) who suggested it to the Lord.

The parallel passages between the two books are almost word-for-word, except for Genesis having Elohim do all the work, and the BoA having the Gods do all the work. If you want to read Genesis as saying Elohim directed and someone else worked, so be it, but the plain text reading says otherwise.

In Genesis: God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. God called the firmament Heaven. God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear.” God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters he called Seas. God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind. God made two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. God created great whales and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind. God made the beast of the earth after his kind and the cattle after to their kind, and everything that creepeth upon the earth after his kind. God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

In the Book of Abraham: They (the Gods) said Let there be light; and there was light. They divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness. The Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. The Gods also said: Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and it shall divide the waters from the waters. The Gods called the expanse Heaven. The Gods ordered, saying: Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together into one place, and let the earth come up dry. The Gods pronounced the dry land, Earth, and the gathering together of the waters pronounced they, Great Waters. The Gods said, Let us prepare the earth to bring forth grass; the herb yielding seed; the fruit tree yielding fruit, after his kind… The Gods organized the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; with the lesser light they set the stars also. The Gods set them in the expanse of the heavens, to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to cause to divide the light from the darkness. The Gods prepared the waters that they might bring forth great whales and every living creature that moveth, which the waters were to bring forth abundantly after their kind; and every winged fowl after their kind. The Gods prepared the earth to bring forth the living creatures after his kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth after their kind. The Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they him.

In our creed, Catholics and other triune-God Christians say that Jesus is “one in being with the Father, through Him all things were made.” This doesn’t mean that the two are merely united in purpose, that the Father gave the vision and Jesus did the work. This means Jesus is always united with the Father in every way, in form, substance, and purpose. They are fully and completely One.

I’m not for a minute going to ask you to agree with me, but do you see my point?
 
Nan_S said:
If I understand you correctly, Elohim-Father had the vision and is the source of all creation, but the architects and laborers of the actual work were the Gods (Jesus and other spirit-children of Elohim?) That conclusion is a little hard to see when placing Genesis and the Book of Abraham side-by-side.

In Genesis, Elohim-Father had the vision, drew up the plans, and also directly worked all the details of creation. In the Book of Abraham 4:1, the Lord (Elohim?) merely said “Let us go down” then assumes the role of observer; the vision, the plans, and the details are all the work of the various Gods. The original vision of creation itself is not even Elohim’s, it is from “one among them that was like unto God” (Jesus?) (Abr 3:24) who suggested it to the Lord.

The parallel passages between the two books are almost word-for-word, except for Genesis having Elohim do all the work, and the BoA having the Gods do all the work. If you want to read Genesis as saying Elohim directed and someone else worked, so be it, but the plain text reading says otherwise.

In Genesis: God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. God called the firmament Heaven. God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear.” God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters he called Seas. God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind. God made two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. God created great whales and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind. God made the beast of the earth after his kind and the cattle after to their kind, and everything that creepeth upon the earth after his kind. God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

In the Book of Abraham: They (the Gods) said Let there be light; and there was light. They divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness. The Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. The Gods also said: Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and it shall divide the waters from the waters. The Gods called the expanse Heaven. The Gods ordered, saying: Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together into one place, and let the earth come up dry. The Gods pronounced the dry land, Earth, and the gathering together of the waters pronounced they, Great Waters. The Gods said, Let us prepare the earth to bring forth grass; the herb yielding seed; the fruit tree yielding fruit, after his kind… The Gods organized the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; with the lesser light they set the stars also. The Gods set them in the expanse of the heavens, to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to cause to divide the light from the darkness. The Gods prepared the waters that they might bring forth great whales and every living creature that moveth, which the waters were to bring forth abundantly after their kind; and every winged fowl after their kind. The Gods prepared the earth to bring forth the living creatures after his kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth after their kind. The Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they him.

In our creed, Catholics and other triune-God Christians say that Jesus is “one in being with the Father, through Him all things were made.” This doesn’t mean that the two are merely united in purpose, that the Father gave the vision and Jesus did the work. This means Jesus is always united with the Father in every way, in form, substance, and purpose. They are fully and completely One.

I’m not for a minute going to ask you to agree with me, but do you see my point?
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If you insist on seeing it that way, I can’t argue with that. But I think that I am as smart and logical as you are, and I don’t have any problems seeing it my way.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
If you insist on seeing it that way, I can’t argue with that. But I think that I am as smart and logical as you are, and I don’t have any problems seeing it my way.

zerinus
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Fair enough.

You see a harmony between Genesis and the Book of Abraham. Thank you for sharing your reasons. I accept your explanation, even though I can’t agree with it.

I find Genesis and the Book of Abraham to have irreconcilable differences, therefore I needed to ask the question: which account is true and which account falls short? Such doubts have kept me out of Mormonism, but I found the answers I was seeking in the Catholic Church.

God bless,

Nan
 
zerinus said:
Your attempt to mock LDS doctrine does not wash.
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Zerinus/Amgid/or has it a name used on other boards,

Let me get this straight, you liken the creation of the Earth and what you perceive God(s) roll in it to a construction project. I use your analogy to ask for clarification on what you believe the Father and the Sons role in this project would be and I added what the Temple says about this process with regards to Michael the Arch-Angel who later becomes Adam the first man and you claim that I am mocking your current and my former beliefs? The only thing that does not “wash” is the lack of biblical and theological support of what the Temple ceremony claims. Be as indignant as you want about the whole thing but that does not change the fact that you believe or accept what I said as a Temple worthy Mormon, if in fact you have ever gone through the Temple.
zerinus said:
I had given ample scriptural references showing you how according to the Bible Jesus created all things under the direction of the Father (John 1:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2). Unless you want to mock the Bible, what we teach is nothing different from what the Bible teaches.
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Your ample scriptural references are contextually bankrupt and hold no more weight than the out of context scriptural passage that Joseph Smith used to prove “Baptism for the Dead” (1 Corinthians 15:29). Josephs very finite mind had a serious need to explain what he did not understand, the Trinity for example, he could not reconcile that YAHWEH and Eloheim are two different Hebrew words for God. So what does he do, he has to wrap it up in neat and “tidy” answer that he can understand and claim truths that are wrought with mistakes from his limited knowledge of Hebrew and the poor quality of the translation of the Kings James Bible. For a better understanding of what I am stating read Josephs own words in his Sermon On the Plurality of Gods; utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/smithpluralityofgodssermon.htm His misuse of the Hebrew language as shown here jewsforjudaism.org/web/Mormons/mormongenesis.html
should be a red flag that he was supporting his explanation by boasting to his audience that his understanding of Hebrew proves what he says. His proofs are not “Prophetic” but only show cause to stroke his own ego and bamboozle his followers.
zerinus said:
Now if you want to boast about your apostasy from the LDS Church, go ahead and boast. But remember what Joseph Smith said: God will never acknowledge apostates and traitors.
zerinus
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First of all I did not “boast” about my “apostasy” as you so generously call it. I do remember what Joseph Smith claimed what God will do with “apostates and traitors” and I have to laugh because that quote you referenced came from the same sermon that I mentioned above and fit nicely into the thread topic, thank you for the irony.

Catholic Guy
 
Yes, I am a Mormon, a former Catholic and I am fairly familiar with both the Catholic & Mormon Trinity. So, I feel fairly naive in asking this obvious question about the subject at hand but I have to ask because it has been bothering me for awhile:

All throughout the four gospels, Jesus frequently prays to his Father. How can that be? Also, there are several rather graphic allusions to Jesus standing on the right hand of the Father. For example Act 7:55
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
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I went to school in Canada and in Canada, you have real school choice. My parents were Catholic and so they sent me to (tax supported) Catholic schools until high school. And I’ve had lots of people & priests explain the Catholic Trinity to me but it still doesn’t make any sense, especially in light of what I read in the Bible. If you think you can help me out, I’ll listen.

There are actually a lot of scriptures which support the fact that the Father and Son are seperate. One of the more interesting experiences I had as a (Mormon) missionary is when we were out tracting, we came across a young man who had studied this particular subject. Most people try to get rid of us as quickly as they can but he had heard that the Mormons’ teaching on the Trinity was different. We spent the next hour with him as he went over scripture after scripture, all things he’d found himself. He was really searching for the truth and he just couldn’t reconcile the three-beings-in-one concept with anything he read in the Bible.

It seems to me that the Trinity is just a construct to explain how Jesus and the God of the Old Testament are the same person. If you have the concept of the pre-existience, i.e., that Jesus was eternal and existed before His earthly birth, then there’s no need for the Trinity construct.

So if you’d like to explain this, I’m all ears. But please leave out all the attacks on Mormon theology. And the slurs. If you can’t discuss this reasonably and with respect for the Mormon viewpoint, however wrong-headed you might believe it is, just click with your mouse and go to another thread. I mean it.
 
First off, I think that the reality of God is pretty incomprehensible to men, so I, personally, am not surprised that I cannot grasp the full reality of Trinity, nor surprised that you can’t, either. My Mormon fiance expresses almost the identical confusion, word for word, that you expressed in your post. I don’t think that this is an accident.

I propose common sense. At least, it seems like common sense to me; if it doesn’t seem like common sense to you, please inform. Here it is: To the Hebrews, God was one. This monotheistic idea about God which, according to His revelation of Himself to the Hebrews, was unique to them, setting them apart from the surrounding peoples, who had multiple gods. In fact, one thread that runs through the OT is the problems that the Hebrews encountered when they interfaced with these pluraltheistic peoples contrary to the warnings from Almighty God.

Then, Jesus arrived preaching things that made it seem to the Hebrews that he was claiming equal status with God. He also preached to the Apostles that after his departure he would send a Comforter to them, which happened principally on Pentecost. The early Church had to reconcile this apparently contradictory preaching by Jesus with the witness of the OT. Obviously, the Church couldn’t claim that Jesus is the fulfillment of OT prophesies while at the same time finding three separate God beings in Jesus’ revelations. The only thing that makes any sense is that Jesus is the “enfleshment” of God as man, a unique being, the GodMan whose mission on Earth is specific to salvation. The Comforter, the Holy Spirit, is God’s activity in the world and within people, especially among the Church, protecting it from error, among other things. All three persons, God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, are manifestations of the One God. After all, God is the same, yesterday, today and forever. He never changes; He is eternal, past, present and future. This is the Hebrew understanding of God, and must also be the Christian understanding if we’re seeing Christianity as the phophetic fulfillment of all that came before it. If your religion arrives at the conclusion that Jesus was referring to entirely distinct gods, each operating independently of the others, then that is incompatible with the OT, and in fact is totally incompatible with what the Apostles understood about Jesus’ teachings.
 
I can’t see how saying “three persons are the manifestation of one God” is any different. One manifestation is a spirit, one was born of flesh, and the other one was the manifestation the Hebrews worshipped. One stands on the right hand of the other. Together they form one God.

I am trying to reconcile this “manifestation” thing and, well it’s sort of a rough concept, suggest a better one if you like, but if it’s the Shape Shifter theory, that God can manifest Himself as any form, then I really have to wonder what the crucifixion was all about. I though the entire point was that through the fall of Adam, we are separated from God and we need a Redeemer and Advocate to plead for us with the Father. I was pretty sure Catholics believed that too. I think it is central to Christian faith–Protestants, JW’s and Mormons too. Isn’t it?
 
no it’s not shape shifting (modalism?) nor manicheanism, arianism or any other heresy.

Think of three fingers of the same hand. Each is distinct at a certain level but all share the same flesh and blood. They can act somewhat independently but stay connected. Now move up to a whole new level of being. The Father, Son And Holy Spirit are all distinct persons capable of different actions, etc. they share the same divine “substance” though. they literally ARE one God, consubstantial and co-equal while remaining three persons. I realize that isn’t the perfect analogy but hopefully it helps. St. Patrick used the shamrock (three leaves one clover) to illustrate this. does that help?
 
majick275 said:
no it’s not shape shifting (modalism?) nor manicheanism, arianism or any other heresy.

Think of three fingers of the same hand. Each is distinct at a certain level but all share the same flesh and blood. They can act somewhat independently but stay connected. Now move up to a whole new level of being. The Father, Son And Holy Spirit are all distinct persons capable of different actions, etc. they share the same divine “substance” though. they literally ARE one God, consubstantial and co-equal while remaining three persons. I realize that isn’t the perfect analogy but hopefully it helps. St. Patrick used the shamrock (three leaves one clover) to illustrate this. does that help?
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I have heard that quote from Saint Patrick before. McMullan is Irish, ya know! But frankly, it’s exactly the sort of thing that doesn’t help. And St. Patrick might just as well be explaining the Mormon Trinity. I really need to understand it in terms of the Redemption of Man and for that to work, I need to know who Jesus was praying to in the garden of Gethsemane.
 
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