YHWH: Jesus to Mormons, the Father to other Christians

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Call it what you will. Remember Karin, if you want to participate, you must be nice. What would you prefer? The Godhead?
I was nice rmcmullan…I as pointing out a fact…LDS do not have a Trinity…it is not nice to mislead people into believing that you guys believe in something that you dont.

LDS belief: Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three different beings.

Christian Belief: The scriptures are very clear, there is only one God, Who is the Father of all, came in the flesh (the Son) and sent His Spirit (Holy Ghost) to indwell His people
 
. What would you prefer? The Godhead?
Not if by Godhead you mean this…

Unlike Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Christianity, Mormonism does not include belief in a [Trinity (http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/trinity.htm), in which the one God consists of three persons. Instead, Mormons believe that the “Godhead” is made up of three distinct beings who are “one in purpose” but not in being. These beings are:
 
Karin, it’s almost a semantic argument in my mind. Mormons call it three different beings and Catholics call it three different manifestations. I am trying to nail down the differences but I think I’m having trouble because I was never really able to get the Trinity down despite the best efforts of many and a study of the Bible.
 
Not if by Godhead you mean this…

Unlike Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Christianity, Mormonism does not include belief in a [Trinity (http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/trinity.htm), in which the one God consists of three persons. Instead, Mormons believe that the “Godhead” is made up of three distinct beings who are “one in purpose” but not in being. These beings are:

  1. Karin, those are good quotes and references and I would say a workable explanation of the Mormon position. If I was asking for one! You do not have to agree with it but you must show it respect. My question was regarding the Trinity.
 
Karin, it’s almost a semantic argument in my mind. Mormons call it three different beings and Catholics call it three different manifestations. I am trying to nail down the differences but I think I’m having trouble because I was never really able to get the Trinity down despite the best efforts of many and a study of the Bible.
IT is not semantic…it is two different things , what LDS and Catholics believe…we DO NOT believe the same thing.
Try these links and see if it helps…

The Trinity
The Blessed Trinity
**

**
 
Karin, those are good quotes and references and I would say a workable explanation of the Mormon position. If I was asking for one!
I was just pointing out that we do not believe the same thing that LDS do.
You do not have to agree with it but you must show it respect. My question was regarding the Trinity.
I did show it respect even though I do not agree with it…nothing I have stated shows disrespect Rmcmullan…
All I have stated is that the LDS do not have a Trinity this is a fact and I have provided links to prove this…🙂
I have also provided links to what the Trinity is and how it is DIFFERENT fromthe LDS view of a Godhead!
You did ask me if we should refer to the Trinity as a Godhead…I looked up the LDS definition of a Godhead (posted it) and stated why we should nto use this word to describe the Trinity.
 
The site you sent me to has this quote:
In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son.
Everytime I try to understand the Trinity I run into the same thing: sentences which appear to be made of words I understand, arranged to express something I have no idea what they’re about. It’s like reading Thoreau. Eternal Generation? I can’t get my understanding around that St. Patrick quote either.
 
The site you sent me to has this quote:

Everytime I try to understand the Trinity I run into the same thing: sentences which appear to be made of words I understand, arranged to express something I have no idea what they’re about. It’s like reading Thoreau. Eternal Generation? I can’t get my understanding around that St. Patrick quote either.
the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God

Sorry cant make it any easier than that:)
 
Karin, again that does not help. Please not the concerns I mentioned in my previous posts. Is Jesus the Mediator with the Father? I thought he died for our sins and to bring us back into His presence. Did Jesus pray to himself and does he stand on his own right hand?
 
That is one cool graphic. When I was a kid, I really used to really love those Holy Cards. I will freely admit that the Catholics have way cooler art & music.

Still, the only difference between that graphic and and one that would be drawn by a Mormon artist is that the God in the middle wouldn’t be a little ball but it would encompass the other three. But most importantly, it in no way addresses my concerns.
 
O-Kay list your concerns once again and lets see if we can tackle them one by one.

As to the graphics yeah they are superior to most:)

The Holy Trinity…The Holy Trinity refers to the three natures of God: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. This does not however mean that there are three Gods. There is only one God manifesting in three forms.
 
Karin, again that does not help. Please not the concerns I mentioned in my previous posts. Is Jesus the Mediator with the Father? I thought he died for our sins and to bring us back into His presence. Did Jesus pray to himself and does he stand on his own right hand?
I’m on the run, but thought I would quickly chime in on the later point, namely, did Jesus Pray to himself (I assume you’re referencing Matt. 17:3, correct?).

Although the Father and the Son are of the same substance, they are distinct persons. In this case, the point of Jesus praying to himself is a non sequitor IMHO.

I’ll add more later!
 
I have heard that quote from Saint Patrick before. McMullan is Irish, ya know! But frankly, it’s exactly the sort of thing that doesn’t help. And St. Patrick might just as well be explaining the Mormon Trinity. I really need to understand it in terms of the Redemption of Man and for that to work, I need to know who Jesus was praying to in the garden of Gethsemane.
Why did Jesus pray? First, He wanted to show us what to do and how. Jesus didn’t need to be baptized by John, either, but He did it to show us the way, and He explained it to John the Baptist: “Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness” (Mt 3:15). Second, in becoming fully human from the time He was born until the time He died on the cross, Jesus voluntarily took on human limitations. He hungered, thirsted, and needed parents to provide for Him. One of those limitations is a lack of mental telepathy. Jesus maintained constant communication with the Father in the human way: prayer. After His resurrection, when Jesus has once again embraced His abilities as God, the bible makes no mention of Jesus praying.

In trying to describe the difference in our perspective and God’s perspective, I sometimes talk about creatures which dwell underwater. I can swim with them and experience life as they know it. But to communicate with those on the surface, I must use a different way than I am accustomed to using above the water. And while I am underwater I do not forget what life on a mountaintop is like; that knowledge stays with me, just as Jesus kept his knowledge of being God. However if I were trying to explain life on a mountaintop to an intelligent-enough dolphin, I would be unable to fully do so because the dolphin has no frame of reference to understand. How do you explain “dry” to a sea-creature? To them “dry” is also “dead.” I could give the dolphin a general idea, little more. In the same way, we will not fully understand the nature of our triune God until we actually join Him in heaven.

One way to try to grasp the concept of the Trinity is to look at an egg. It has three component parts - shell, yolk, and white. In order to be an egg, it must have those three parts. While all 3 parts are “egg”, and can be used separately, they are best and most meaningful when together. (Yes, an egg has other parts, too, but they are all sub-components of shell, yolk, and white.) Eliminate one of the three and it is missing a necessary element. The part we see revealed to the world is the shell, which we can compare to Jesus - God presented to us in a way we can touch. The part hidden from us is the yolk which we can compare to God the Father, the procreative portion and origin of new life, dimly visible through the shell. The part inbetween, nearly invisible in to the eye, is the white, which can be compared to the Holy Spirit - we may not see it right away, but when the egg is opened we can easily feel it and observe its effects.

One of the points of the egg analogy is to illustrate the interdependence of our triune God. Jesus is fully God, but not all by His lonesome. Same with the Father and the Spirit. You can even ignore one or two of the three, just as you can imagine that the eggshell has no contents worth examining, or look only at the yolk and ignore the rest. The Father is still God, even to Jews and Muslims who don’t believe in Jesus, and vice-versa. But you have an incomplete picture unless you acknowledge all three together.

In the Book of Revelation we see Jesus standing beside the Father. How can this be if they are both one God? It is like the eggshell, the egg white, and the egg yolk being beside each other. Each component is still “egg”, not peas and carrots or anything else. Together they are the complete egg. Together, the Father, Son, and Spirit are the complete God.

In the final analysis, Trinity will not be completely comprehensible to us until we enter heaven to behold Almighty God as He is, rather than as through a glass, darkly, the way we do now.
 
I really need to understand it in terms of the Redemption of Man and for that to work, I need to know who Jesus was praying to in the garden of Gethsemane.
Jesus was praying to the Father, a person distinct from himself.

What Mormons refuse to acknowledge is the difference between persons and beings.

A dog is zero persons in one being.

You are one person in one being.

God is three persons in one being.

It is the nature of God to exist as a family, and He has always existed that way.

God the Father eternally begets the Son. It is not a one-time event like the birth of a human child, but like all things with God, His begetting of the Son is ever-present and eternal. That is why we say in the creed that Jesus is “eternally begotten of the Father”. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the perfect union of Father and Son, and is also an individual person, though also one in being with the Father and the Son.

They all share the same substance (they are co-substantial), because the Son is begotten by the Father from the Father’s own substance, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the substance shared by the Father and the Son.

Meditate on this for a while. It is very deep but will unlock the mystery of God for you if you give it a chance.

God bless you,
Paul
 
Jesus was praying to the Father, a person distinct from himself.

What Mormons refuse to acknowledge is the difference between persons and beings.

A dog is zero persons in one being.

You are one person in one being.

God is three persons in one being.

It is the nature of God to exist as a family, and He has always existed that way.

God the Father eternally begets the Son. It is not a one-time event like the birth of a human child, but like all things with God, His begetting of the Son is ever-present and eternal. That is why we say in the creed that Jesus is “eternally begotten of the Father”. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the perfect union of Father and Son, and is also an individual person, though also one in being with the Father and the Son.

They all share the same substance (they are co-substantial), because the Son is begotten by the Father from the Father’s own substance, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the substance shared by the Father and the Son.

Meditate on this for a while. It is very deep but will unlock the mystery of God for you if you give it a chance.

God bless you,
Paul
This almost makes some kind of sense! Let me ponder this for awhile, as you suggested.
 
Jesus was praying to the Father, a person distinct from himself.

What Mormons refuse to acknowledge is the difference between persons and beings.

A dog is zero persons in one being.

You are one person in one being.

God is three persons in one being.

It is the nature of God to exist as a family, and He has always existed that way.

Paul
I LOVE this!!! How basic - how to the point! I get all wrapped up in what the Trinity IS, but didn’t think of comparing the Trinity to what it IS NOT.

“A dog is zero persons in one being.” 👍

Slam-dunk. TYVM. I mean it.

Nan
 
This almost makes some kind of sense! Let me ponder this for awhile, as you suggested.
I want to compare and contrast this with the Mormon doctrinal development on this.

Original BoM : three persons, One God.

Testimony of Three witnesses: And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Alma 11:44
Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

2 Nephi 31:21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the away; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

MOST IMPORTANT AND CLEAR!!!
Mosiah 15: *1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people. *

and even in the beginning of the D&C

D&C 20: 28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

sounds pretty orthodox trinitarian right?

(continued)
 
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