Yoga and Christianity

[Pleroma]

This seems to be the core of the debate: Can one do yoga (hatha yoga) without the yoga world-view?

No.

Vedic deities and Yoga

“From the eastern viewpoint and especially the yoga traditions, it is impossible to separate yoga from the deities as they represent the universal forces of creation and transformation.”

Can I stretch my legs without worshipping or even believing in Hiranyagarbha?

Sure, all athletes who go through physical training stretch their legs without having to deal with any religious elements.

Why not?

Stretching your legs casually? Then its okay no problem.

Stretching your legs and breathing referring a yogic book or under the guidance of a yogic master? Then its a problem, yes. You either need to deny the entire world-view of Yoga or succumb to its reality.

The pagan religions are set up on the idea that this world is just a mere shadow of the more idealized world that exist in the Platonic realms so any mystical exercises that you perform will have effects and its in direct conflict with the biblical cosmology.

 

[Pleroma]

Oh, I don;t know I think a lot of Catholics are into selfless service. That’s a Jesus-thing as much as it is a Krishna thing.

If Catholics and Hindus worship and are loyal to Christ and Savitr respectively without distorting each others cosmogony, principles and beliefs then of course there wouldn’t be any problem.

But the topic of this thread is Yoga and Christianity and I am quite firm on my position that Yoga and especially orthodox Christianity is incompatible and I respect Catholics if they worship and are loyal to Christ rather than practising Yoga and there by worshipping eastern gods which is a blasphemy to their own religion.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Sure, all athletes who go through physical training stretch their legs without having to deal with any religious elements.

Exactly, the physical element of stretching is not intrinsically linked to any spiritual element.

and yet earlier you say:

Originally Posted by Pleroma
As has been said many times one cannot separate the physical and the spiritual elements from yoga.

You seem to contradict yourself.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

No.

Vedic deities and Yoga

“From the eastern viewpoint and especially the yoga traditions, it is impossible to separate yoga from the deities as they represent the universal forces of creation and transformation.”

Good article but you misinterpret it.

Yes, perhaps from *the eastern viewpoint *it may be impossible to separate yoga from the deities. But then, many of us do not have the eastern viewpoint. And if you notice, the deities are not really personal entities. Rather they represent tforces of creation and transformation.

They “symbolize” and “represent” other principles. Read the article again.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

My philosophy in this matter is quite consistent and it is the orthodox eastern philosophy and all scholarly evidence is on my side.

So, in fact, you have never put your hand together in a prayer position in Church; a.k.a., a mudra position, because the means your are worshiped a Hindu “god.” Thank you for your clarification.

Of course you’re not explicitly worshipping the eastern gods but by embracing and performing Yoga you’re implicitly worshipping the eastern gods.

When I stretch I am not practicing Hinduism and more than you are practicing Buddhism when you use a sour ingredient in food to balance a sweet ingredient.

For your kind information yoga isn’t simply stretching, its much more than that and its a path of salvation which is entirely anti-semitic.

Intent is everything. If I do a “downward dog,” I’m just stretching, because I intend to work out. When you do that same position, you believe you are practicing Hinduism, thus you are practicing Hinduism.

Intent is that absolutely essentially element that separates the two, and the Catholic Church recognizes this. That’s why two people can perform the same exactly action under exactly the same circumstances, and one person can be committing a mortal sin and the other is not.

I honestly don’t have anything personal against anyone, I just criticize for the position you hold,

My position is that I am Catholic and I work out. What’s wrong with that?

What is wrong with that is you make completely unfounded assumptions about people that you don’t know and assume it to be the truth.

What do people in the west call for workout with dumbbells? Yoga is not just a workout, you better realize that, its an ancient technique to become one with the eastern gods.

Really? Interesting that you accuse me of practicing Hinduism, yet you seem to know vastly more about Hinduism than I do. What’s up with you intense study of Hinduism?

 

[Pleroma]

Exactly, the physical element of stretching is not intrinsically linked to any spiritual element.

and yet earlier you say:

Originally Posted by Pleroma
As has been said many times one cannot separate the physical and the spiritual elements from yoga.

You seem to contradict yourself.

Normal physical exercises is not Yoga and everyone can do that but once you start doing physical breathing exercises by referring to a yoga book or under the guidance of a Yogic master then you’re doing Yoga and for these exercises the physical and the spiritual elements are all intertwined and cannot be separated.

Working out with dumbbells, push ups are all normal physical exercises and everyone can do that but Yoga is different its a way of controlling your breathing in order to stimulate the body, mind and soul which are all pagan concepts and hence in direct conflict with the biblical religions.

Yoga is not secular and that’s the reason it has not been compulsorily introuduced in schools anywhere in the world.

School Yoga Class Draws religious protest from Christians.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Of course yes.

So why are you breathing? Doesn’t that make you a hypocrite?

As has been said many times one cannot separate the physical and the spiritual elements from yoga.

Fiction has been separating physical elements from spiritual for centuries. Its very existence is only more proof that counters your claim.

You’re not seeing the beautiful things that exists in your own religion.

Oh please, our religion’s got good art and architecture but having only one brand makes it boring and diminishes its value. There is a point when the stuff of Europe gets overrated.

Besides, I love the derivations of the naga and the god Ganesha.

The five element theory exists in all the major religions of the world including the Genesis and that’s what this world is made of and its not specific to Buddhism.

Last time I checked, the world has about 118 elements, not five. Source: the periodic table.

Furthermore, I look to Genesis and all I see are seven days of mass gardening, a talking snake, and a tree of life, followed by the Fall. There’s also the part where God gives an old guy instructions to build a zoo on a wooden cruise liner. Then there’s the small retelling of Jewish ancestry with talks of visions and meeting with angels.

I see nothing in reference to differentiating elements into the whole fire-water-earth-wind-lightning trope you seem to be talking about. Heck even Greek classical elements only numbered in four (a system of which I’m more of a fan of in fact).

All the Yogic postures, pin to pin has been designed and developed to invoke the spiritual side of things.

Leseee… I put my hands together with all of my middle and index fingers pointing up. That’s me doing a kuji-in hand gesture… which is steeped in Buddhism and other Asian pagan religions.

It’s also a popular hand gesture for those pretending to be ninjas.

I also liked to draw circles with stars in the center and runes on the edges. Oh wait, aren’t these pagan symbols too?

So far I have yet to experience anything remotely resembling a spiritual experience (and I’ve been doing this for like 10 years). The closest thing I get are ideas on what technique a series of hand signs will activate. Same with the circles. (What symbol is best for summoning a kraken? :whacky

 

[Pleroma]

Good article but you misinterpret it.

Yes, perhaps from *the eastern viewpoint *it may be impossible to separate yoga from the deities. But then, many of us do not have the eastern viewpoint. And if you notice, the deities are not really personal entities. Rather they represent tforces of creation and transformation.

They “symbolize” and “represent” other principles. Read the article again.

Vedic deities are anthropomorphic Gods who literally exist inside your body. All eastern religions are based on this.

Taoism: Inner Gods

By definition Yoga is a pagan practice and irrespective of it is true or not you’re worshipping the eastern gods and I don’t know how you can worship eastern gods and at the same time maintain that you’re a Catholic.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Normal physical exercises is not Yoga and everyone can do that but once you start doing physical breathing exercises by referring to a yoga book or under the guidance of a Yogic master then you’re doing Yoga and for these exercises the physical and the spiritual elements are all intertwined and cannot be separated.

I discovered the connection between breathing and stretching in middle school, before I ever had anything to do with yoga or martial arts. Fact is, when doing any type of stretch, there are ways of breathing and relaxing one’s muscles that allow one to stretch further. That has zero to do with yoga; anyone that does any type of exercise seriously has figured that out.

To imply that stretching and breathing means one’s is practicing Hinduism is an egregiously extreme and erroneous view; this has been discovered completely independently of Hinduism.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

By definition Yoga is a pagan practice and irrespective of it is true or not you’re worshipping the eastern gods and I don’t know how you can worship eastern gods and at the same time maintain that you’re a Catholic.

By your definition of Yoga only. “Yoga” in the west also refers to a system of stretching and/or breathing. The meaning of words and phrases often change as the move across cultures. Another example is “Kung Fu.” First, that phrase is actually a western concoction that is not used in the east. And this phrase covers everything from Chuan Fa (including religious element) to Wu Su (which is entirely secular).

 

[Pleroma]

So why are you breathing? Doesn’t that make you a hypocrite?

Just because Yoga is not compatible with orthodox Christianity doesn’t mean it isn’t compatible with no other form of Christianity.

"It is worth noting that Valentinianism shows an astonishing degree of similarity to another monistic system, the Advaita Vedanta school of Indian philosophy. In Advaita, the material world is an illusion (maya) attributed to ignorance (avidya) of the true reality. Through knowledge (jnana) of the ultimate reality (brahman), the world of multiplicity vanishes. True redemption (moksha) is the knowledge of one’s true nature.

This raises the intriguing possibility of some kind of connection between the two. There was some awareness of Indian thought in the ancient Roman world. However, at the time of Valentinus, there was no systematic statement of Advaita thought. It is possible that Valentinus came into contact with some form of early Advaita Vedanta teaching. Advaita philosophy as it now stands was given its definitive form by Shankara in the 6th or 7th century AD. There also exists the possibility that he was influenced by Valentinian thought. Valentinians are known to have been active in the Middle East as late as the seventh century. It is possible that Valentinian missionaries or refugees may have made their way to India and come into contact with Shankara or his immediate predecessors. However, any connection between the two remains purely hypothetical."

• Valentinian monism

Since I follow a different Christianity and revere Christ more than the Catholics I have got no problem with Yoga and my version of Christianity.

Fiction has been separating physical elements from spiritual for centuries. Its very existence is only more proof that counters your claim.

Creation myths are more real than ordinary reality.

Oh please, our religion’s got good art and architecture but having only one brand makes it boring and diminishes its value. There is a point when the stuff of Europe gets overrated.

Sure you can go ahead and worship eastern gods that’s your right but stop calling yourself a Catholic when you have started to worship the eastern gods. Its just double standards.

Last time I checked, the world has about 118 elements, not five. Source: the periodic table.

Religion trumps logic, reason and empiricism and religion stands on its own. I am not going to twist the traditional interpretations of scriptures just to make them in line with what modern science says. The numinous world is indeed made of five elements and it exists in all the religions of the world.

Furthermore, I look to Genesis and all I see are seven days of mass gardening, a talking snake, and a tree of life, followed by the Fall. There’s also the part where God gives an old guy instructions to build a zoo on a wooden cruise liner. Then there’s the small retelling of Jewish ancestry with talks of visions and meeting with angels.

I see nothing in reference to differentiating elements into the whole fire-water-earth-wind-lightning trope you seem to be talking about. Heck even Greek classical elements only numbered in four (a system of which I’m more of a fan of in fact).

Read Genesis 1 again. God created earth, water, light, heavens and the air.

Leseee… I put my hands together with all of my middle and index fingers pointing up. That’s me doing a kuji-in hand gesture… which is steeped in Buddhism and other Asian pagan religions.

It’s also a popular hand gesture for those pretending to be ninjas.

I also liked to draw circles with stars in the center and runes on the edges. Oh wait, aren’t these pagan symbols too?

So far I have yet to experience anything remotely resembling a spiritual experience (and I’ve been doing this for like 10 years). The closest thing I get are ideas on what technique a series of hand signs will activate. Same with the circles. (What symbol is best for summoning a kraken? :whacky

Its called a Mandala and just by drawing those circles you won’t get any knowledge or spiritual experience, you need to first get initiated yourself from a Tibetan Buddhist or seriously and correctly practice their meditation techniques.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

The numinous world is indeed made of five elements and it exists in all the religions of the world.

Stretching and breathing exists in all cultures independent of religion. Not only that, it’s not specific to humans. I have dogs, cats, horses, rabbits, and birds, and all stretch.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Religion trumps logic, reason and empiricism and religion stands on its own.

You don’t really want to go down that path, do you? One of the posters earlier noted this issue about the group you are referencing and slavery. Either slavery is correct, or the group you referenced wrongly interpreted religion. If they wrongly interpreted religion on a major matter once, changes are they are not very good at interpreting in the first place and will make such a mistake again.

 

[Pleroma]

By your definition of Yoga only. “Yoga” in the west also refers to a system of stretching and/or breathing. The meaning of words and phrases often change as the move across cultures. Another example is “Kung Fu.” First, that phrase is actually a western concoction that is not used in the east. And this phrase covers everything from Chuan Fa (including religious element) to Wu Su (which is entirely secular).

If you do sun salutations even without uttering the mantras you’re indeed bowing, honouring and worshipping the Sun-god and there is no arguing there. Yes the 15 million people or so in the US who practice yoga are already worshipping a different God.

You cannot even take eastern medicine and say it worked for you and at the same time say that you’re a Catholic because all eastern medicine works on the principle of five element theory and by that definition you have affirmed a pagan cosmogony.

Either Catholicism is wrong or the world-view of Yoga is wrong. Both cannot go together.

 

[Pleroma]

You don’t really want to go down that path, do you? One of the posters earlier noted this issue about the group you are referencing and slavery. Either slavery is correct, or the group you referenced wrongly interpreted religion. If they wrongly interpreted religion on a major matter once, changes are they are not very good at interpreting in the first place and will make such a mistake again.

I use negative theology and figure out what God cannot be based on the latest available empirical evidence and hence there by determine which interpretations have withstood the test of times and which interpretation is most likely the correct one.

“The scriptures are ambiguous and the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition.” (Irenaeus Against Heresies3:2:1). Only those who had received these secret apostolic teachings could correctly interpret scriptures."

The traditions are more important than what modern science says about the nature of reality and for your kind information scientists have no consensus as to what the nature of reality is so science isn’t everything.

 

[Mickey]

I know many people who started practicing yoga with intentions of “good excercise”…and then got sucked into the “spriitual” hinduistic nature of the practice. It was subtle and incremental. The evil one is very crafty.

Dangerous stuff…stay away from it…in any form.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

The traditions are more important than what modern science says about the nature of reality and for your kind information scientists have no consensus as to what the nature of reality is so science isn’t everything.

Nor is there consensus among religions in regards to the nature of reality. You have to think for yourself and get your own show on the road. That’s why we were born. If everyone was meant to follow one template, there would be only one person. Whatever makes this world work has demonstrated it’s efficiency, and making billions of beings when there is only one way to live seems very inefficient. You seem to me to have a very litigious view of God, and I don’t. We’re different, and in this regard, things are probably as they should be.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

You cannot even take eastern medicine and say it worked for you and at the same time say that you’re a Catholic because all eastern medicine works on the principle of five element theory and by that definition you have affirmed a pagan cosmogony.

Eastern medicine wasn’t pulled out of thin air. It’s a form of science; attempting to create a method to explain that which is observed. We actually use some eastern medicines that deal with bruising; they work better than the reputed western equivalents.

I’m only interested in whether they work. If they don’t, I don’t use them.

Either Catholicism is wrong or the world-view of Yoga is wrong. Both cannot go together.

So, indeed, you are confirming that you never put your hands in a prayer, i.e., mudra, position.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

I know many people who started practicing yoga with intentions of “good excersize”…and then got sucked into the “spriitual” hinduistic nature of the practice. It was subtle and incremental. The evil one is very crafty.

Dangerous stuff…stay away from it…in any form.

Well, now you know a someone that was a non-practicing Catholic that is now a practicing Catholic that includes various stretches in his exercise routine that some people call “yoga.”

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

I use negative theology and figure out what God cannot be based on the latest available empirical evidence and hence there by determine which interpretations have withstood the test of times and which interpretation is most likely the correct one.

“The scriptures are ambiguous and the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition.” (Irenaeus Against Heresies3:2:1). Only those who had received these secret apostolic teachings could correctly interpret scriptures."

The traditions are more important than what modern science says about the nature of reality and for your kind information scientists have no consensus as to what the nature of reality is so science isn’t everything.

I assume that you are intending to state that indeed the group that you are referring to correctly interpreted that matter of slavery years ago.