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friardchips
Guest
Or catch.
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friardchips
Guest
I’m not disagreeing with any of this.ARGHHHHH.The benefits come from stretching! Most all exercise increases flexibility and circulation but it does NOT have as its final goal euphoria and a dissolution of the personality.
Personally I think a lot of the hype behind yoga is driven by motives of profit. Literally millions of dollars on classes, clothes,mats and books. I also think many in the west are deluded into thinking it is some kind of shortcut to spiritual perfection.
According to Patanjali who codified it in Yoga Sutra, yoga was a methodical effort to ATTAIN PERFECTION, through the control of the different elements of human nature, physical and psychical. - See he admits it too,
To clarify something,the bishop said yoga could be an OCCASSION of sin probably if one adopts the spiritual and pantheistic views which would be considered heretical to a Catholic.He is speaking the truth.
Zed pointed out and added that yoga was the repository of something basic in the human soul and psyche. - Now yoga is a “repository”?I thought you guys said it was just stretching muahaha
But I think people do sometimes feel better from having done Yoga. Whether or not I think Yoga is a good thing to do is an entirely different statement to make altogether.
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
Well, not quite.According to Patanjali who codified it in Yoga Sutra, yoga was a methodical effort to ATTAIN PERFECTION, through the control of the different elements of human nature, physical and psychical. - See he admits it too,
1.2 Yoga is the control (nirodhah, regulation, channeling, mastery, integration, coordination, stilling, quieting, setting aside) of the modifications (gross and subtle thought patterns) of the mind field.
(yogash chitta vritti nirodhah)
1.3 Then the Seer abides in Itself, resting in its own True Nature, which is called Self-realization.
(tada drashtuh svarupe avasthanam)
1.4 At other times, when one is not in Self-realization, the Seer appears to take on the form of the modifications of the mind field, taking on the identity of those thought patterns.
(vritti sarupyam itaratra)
swamij.com/yoga-sutras-10104.htm
1.2. Union is restraining the thought-streams natural to the mind.
1.3. Then the seer dwells in his own nature.
sacred-texts.com/hin/yogasutr.htm
So according to Patanjali it is about nirodhah (= control, regulation, channeling, mastery, integration, coordination, understanding, stilling, quieting) the mind.
Then when we no longer identify with all the thoughts in our mind we abide in our **true nature. **
From a Christian perspective there is no problem. It is simply a means of quieting the heart and mind so we can abide in our true nature. So it comes down to anthropology. Do you believe like Calvinists that our true nature is corrupt and sinful? Or like a Catholic that our true nature is God’s image?
355 "God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them."218 Man occupies a unique place in creation: (I) he is “in the image of God”; (II) in his own nature he unites the spiritual and material worlds; (III) he is created “male and female”; (IV) God established him in his friendship.
But of course that true nature also corrupted and redeemed:
405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p6.htm
The main problem remains concupiscence which yoga also sees as a problem:
2.32 Cleanliness and purity of body and mind (shaucha), an attitude of contentment (santosha), ascesis or training of the senses (tapas), self-study and reflection on sacred words (svadhyaya), and an attitude of letting go into one’s source (ishvarapranidhana) are the observances or practices of self-training (niyamas), and are the second rung on the ladder of Yoga.
(shaucha santosha tapah svadhyaya ishvarapranidhana niyamah)
So the only danger is in believing one can do it all by themselves and has no need of redemption. A Catholic knows that not to be true.
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
If one must avoid Hatha Yoga because it is pagan then one also must avoid these other Yoga practices described by Patanjali as the first and second steps of Yoga:
2.30
Non-injury or non-harming (ahimsa),
truthfulness (satya),
abstention from stealing (asteya),
walking in awareness of the highest reality (brahmacharya),
and non-possessiveness or non-grasping with the senses (aparigraha)
are the five yamas, or codes of self-regulation or restraint, and are the first of the eight steps of Yoga.
(ahimsa satya asteya brahmacharya aparigraha yama)
2.32 Cleanliness and purity of body and mind (shaucha),
an attitude of contentment (santosha),
ascesis or training of the senses (tapas),
self-study and reflection on sacred words (svadhyaya),
and an attitude of letting go into one’s source (ishvarapranidhana)
are the observances or practices of self-training (niyamas), and are the second rung on the ladder of Yoga.
(shaucha santosha tapah svadhyaya ishvarapranidhana niyamah)
2.38 When walking in the awareness of the highest reality (brahmacharya) is firmly established, then a great strength, capacity, or vitality (virya) is acquired.
(brahmacharya pratisthayam virya labhah)
2.30 Self-restraint in actions includes abstention
from violence,
from falsehoods,
from stealing,
from sexual engagements, and
from acceptance of gifts.
2.32 The fixed observances are
cleanliness,
contentment,
austerity,
study and
persevering devotion to God.
2.38 When one is confirmed in celibacy, spiritual vigor is gained.
2.30
Non-injury or non-harming (ahimsa),
truthfulness (satya),
abstention from stealing (asteya),
walking in awareness of the highest reality (brahmacharya),
and non-possessiveness or non-grasping with the senses (aparigraha)
are the five yamas, or codes of self-regulation or restraint, and are the first of the eight steps of Yoga.
(ahimsa satya asteya brahmacharya aparigraha yama)
2.32 Cleanliness and purity of body and mind (shaucha),
an attitude of contentment (santosha),
ascesis or training of the senses (tapas),
self-study and reflection on sacred words (svadhyaya),
and an attitude of letting go into one’s source (ishvarapranidhana)
are the observances or practices of self-training (niyamas), and are the second rung on the ladder of Yoga.
(shaucha santosha tapah svadhyaya ishvarapranidhana niyamah)
2.38 When walking in the awareness of the highest reality (brahmacharya) is firmly established, then a great strength, capacity, or vitality (virya) is acquired.
(brahmacharya pratisthayam virya labhah)
2.30 Self-restraint in actions includes abstention
from violence,
from falsehoods,
from stealing,
from sexual engagements, and
from acceptance of gifts.
2.32 The fixed observances are
cleanliness,
contentment,
austerity,
study and
persevering devotion to God.
2.38 When one is confirmed in celibacy, spiritual vigor is gained.
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cjforJesus
Guest
It is not being avoided because of being pagan but because of the spiritual dangers of falling into the philosophy of yoga which is pantheistic and polytheistic. The purpose of attaining this so called spiritual perfection and kundalini power is to avoid being reincarnated.
Most all religions stress everything you stated but they do not do so to avoid being reincarnated but because they love God.
So are you saying you practice the spiritual aspects of yoga and are trying to stop your cycle of reincarnation?
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cjforJesus
Guest
This belief in karma and its impact on future rebirths is at the heart of basic ethical sensibilities in Hinduism and in all the other religions that affirm it. People should do good actions and avoid bad actions so as to not accumulate bad karma to themselves.
This has nothing to do with compassion or loving God or neighbor but just a futile way of trying to avoid being reincarnated as something inferior.
Christians do good works not because they fear hell but because they love God and in their fellow man see a reflection of God.We are all made in the image and likeness of God,yet have a fallen nature.
The waters of baptism cleanse us of original sin and join us to the body of Christ.
There is nothing in Hinduism comparable to baptism or faith because it is about self.You become your own god.There is no room for a personal Savior because you are supposedly your own savior.
This has nothing to do with compassion or loving God or neighbor but just a futile way of trying to avoid being reincarnated as something inferior.
Christians do good works not because they fear hell but because they love God and in their fellow man see a reflection of God.We are all made in the image and likeness of God,yet have a fallen nature.
The waters of baptism cleanse us of original sin and join us to the body of Christ.
There is nothing in Hinduism comparable to baptism or faith because it is about self.You become your own god.There is no room for a personal Savior because you are supposedly your own savior.
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Contarini
Guest
But “bad karma” is a way of saying “bad actions do something bad to you,” which is a perfectly sound observation regardless of reincarnation. I don’t think that the belief in reincarnation (in the sense of being reborn in another body in this world, though that’s not the only form of reincarnation) is as central as you are claiming. I’ve met a devout Hindu who said that reincarnation wasn’t particularly important to her spirituality at all.
Christians believe in karma too–as we sow, so shall we reap.
You could argue just as well that the Christian belief in heaven or hell means that Christian ethics have nothing to do with compassion or loving God or neighbor but are just about “fire insurance.”
Furthermore, in both Christianity and Hinduism the relationship between ethics and salvation is complicated and varies from one variant of the tradition to another. In Christianity, we have the concepts of original sin, grace, and forgiveness. These mess with ethics particularly strongly in evangelical Protestantism, but they complicate things across the board. Some Hindus have accused Christianity of being unethical because of our belief in forgiveness, but Hinduism also messes with ethics. Ethics in Hinduism pertains to dharma, which operates in the world of “maya.” Moksha–liberation from maya–in a sense transcends ethics. (That’s why you get the minority tradition of “left-handed tantrism,” which engages in taboo acts in order to transcend all dichotomies and escape maya.) It isn’t something you earn by doing good deeds. Good deeds will get you a better rebirth–but not ultimate union with God, unless they are done with a mind fixed on God as described in the Bhagavad-Gita.
And, of course, the above vastly oversimplifies the diversity of Hinduism.
I respect and share that perspective, but many Christians don’t. I often hear people say things like “if there were no heaven or hell, there would be no point living morally” or even, in Catholic circles, “if justification by faith were true, then why not just go out and sin all you like?”
Untrue. In devotional Hinduism, there are conversion accounts in which wicked sinners were cleansed and transformed in a moment through repentance and faith in an avatar of Vishnu.
Certainly effort is important. But the goal of effort is to transcend what we experience as the “self.”
Edwin
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
No. Reincarnation is unknowable and is not part of Catholic faith. I practice the spiritual aspects of yoga (and by the way I mean more the yamas and niyames…truth, nonviolence etc. than the asanas) because they are consistent with Catholic fairh. I would hope we all practice them.
But what I hear you saying now is that “Yoga” is defined by motives and philosophy, not postures and disciplines. I have been trying to make that point these many pages. My fault though in sloppy word use. Perhaps I should say I sometimes use the disciplines OF Yoga without using the philosophy and motives.
But I have read others here saying that the positions in themselves, regardless of motivation and philosophy, open us to demonic forces. I believe that is superstitioun.
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
Very clear post, Edwin. and this transcendence of self’ I see as being very much like the dying to self Jesus talked about.
And it is not all about doing it oneself, at least according to Patanjali. “Isvarapranidana” calling for the help of Isvara, walking with Isvara. Isvara being not quite the same as Christian God but I would say similar in many ways. What do you think?
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cjforJesus
Guest
You missed my point on baptism,Jesus said you must be born of water and the Spirit. This occurs at baptism and is very necessary in Christianity. We die to ourselves and rise as new children in Christ. Baptism is not a symbol but a reality, proven when Jesus submitted to John baptising Him though technically he did not need to repent of anything,
In the instant of Baptism all three members of the Holy Trinity were present. Jesus,the HOly Spirit as a dove.and God the Father by His voice. This is very significant and there is no parallel in any other faith.
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
Can any sinner have a true conversion without the Holy Trinity regardless of the particular faith. In other words isn’t God present, and in fact the provider of grace, at every true conversion?
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cjforJesus
Guest
That is a valid point.
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friardchips
Guest
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
How about turning from vice and selfishness to virtue and charity for the love of God?Hi. If so, what is “true conversion”?
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friardchips
Guest
Do you think then that all conversions are all “true conversions”, that all conversions are to the same depth of conversion, and all contain the same relevance and meaning?
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
There are many kinds of conversion: To Catholicism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. Certainly as Catholics we see with our bias and believe we have the best. But there is intellectual conversion and there is conversion of the heart. “True conversion” must involve the heart and love that leads to a change in life. Of course “True conversion” is just a term for this disussion.
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friardchips
Guest
As Catholic we are shown and offered the chance to walk The Way, The Truth and The Life.
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
Yes. That is what we believe.
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friardchips
Guest
So, with this understanding then, you also realise that the Bible is absolutely specific, and not at all ambiguous, about what constitutes, or rather, who IS, The Way, The Truth and The Life.
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
Of course.
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