YOGA...ooer!

[christofirst]

Thank you for this response and for the links! But this post suggests: I can go and do whatever with whoever, for example, because at that moment I want to feel nice or other people to feel nice and do not intend to do damage to souls, and hey, might even offer my actions up to God, right? This is what this post sounds like. For me, this does not address the problem, it highlights it. The same attitude is with abortionists and pro-euthanasia campaigners etc…(an extreme example, I know) whose intention is not necessarily to kill but are doing it anyway because of some other intention they do not believe is bad…!

It is not just intention left alone but education so our intentions can be good and fruitful.

As I said before, the added dimension to a Christian’s prayerful life is not just intention but also commands to love appropriately and learn to do so otherwise we can be testing God continually.

If we love God we follow His commandments, and sometimes those commandments contradict our own wills. Is this not so? Is Christianity not supposed to be a challenge?

Thank you for responding to my post.

I have to disagree with your first premise, because stretching and meditating are not intrinsically evil, whereas abortion and euthanasia are. Do you honestly think they are comparable? The fact that Yoga and mediation either originated or achieved a level of effectiveness through non-Christian religions does not make them evil. Consider this official statement from one of the very Church documents you linked to, On Some Aspects of Christian Meditation. After advising prudence when considering these practices of other religious origin (and I’m certainly not arguing against prudence), the Roman Curia goes on to tell us:

"This does not mean that genuine practices of meditation which come from the Christian East and from the great non-Christian religions, which prove attractive to the man of today who is divided and disoriented, cannot constitute a suitable means of helping the person who prays to come before God with an interior peace, even in the midst of external pressures."

The notion that Hinduism and Buddhism have a demonic foundation cannot be reconciled, to my way of thinking, with these words of Saint Pope John Paul II, addressed to the U.S. in 1987:

**"To the Buddhist community, which reflects numerous Asian traditions as well as American, I wish respectfully to acknowledge your way of life, based upon compassion and loving kindness, and upon a yearning for peace, prosperity and harmony for all beings. May all of us give witness to compassion and loving kindness in promoting the true good of humanity.

To the Hindu community: I hold in esteem your concern for inner peace and for the peace of the world, based not on purely mechanistic or materialistic political considerations, but on self-purification, unselfishness, love, and sympathy for all. May the minds of all people be imbued with such love and understanding."**

And living my faith as a Catholic follower of Christ is always a challenge, whether I meditate or do Yoga stretches or not. If meditation and Yoga allows me to take some focus off of myself - my worried mind and my aches and pains - so that I can be of better service to God and others, how can this be wrong or evil?

 

[ptisme]

We use incense at Mass. Incense has been used in the worship of pagan gods for millennia. As has our usual folding of hands in prayer.

A ring indicating marriage has pagan roots as well… It’s all about intent.

 

[friardchips]

And a person who does this in humility and faith, opening themselves to the Reality that underlies all created reality, is not making himsefl/herself receptive to demons.

Depends what way we think we are being ‘open’, though. Sure humility and faith, going with the grace of God, I get it, but there are ways and means of practicing humility and faith and not everything comes under those banners. When we think we have humility it is probably a sign we don’t.

Pride and lack of charity–these make us receptive to the demonic.

Agreed.

I believe in spiritual warfare. But it is not an amoral warfare as you seem to be implying.

It can lead to that quite easily as many things can. some more than others.

Are you talking about the “kundalini” serpent language? That’s the only example I can think of. I think we need to be careful jumping on an image and assuming that there is a direct connection.

I think the connection is there for all to see and the article is one of many who have not only seen but participated. It is quite clear the woman is not lying in the article. Why would anyone who purports certain problems arising from having practiced Yoga have reason to lie? This is not a logical premise.

Before taking a position one way or the other on yoga, I think we need to get our metaphysics straight as Christians. A lot of the anti-yoga language seems to reflect a more dualistic perspective than orthodox Christianity allows for.

This is beyond meta-physics. The realms and dominions are beyond that.

It suggests that testing God is not a position to be relaxed about. It suggests that while we have the power of God to defeat Satan, at the same time, we don’t do what Satan would like and to jump on the bandwagon of the popular I feel this-I feel that, culture. It is a prayerful and respectful humble position the Christian is to take if he/she really wants to rely on God’s intervention. Obviously, this begins in the heart as you said earlier, regarding humility. Sticking one’s bum out to God is hardly respectful!

At the same time. Fr. Griffiths and others who have deeply integrated Hinduism and Christianity go over to the monistic end of the spectrum in ways that make me rather uncomfortable.

Without naming names, there are certain practices in which the Catholic faith is being severely undermined by a few who are going overboard attempting to integrate two different belief systems. Though their intentions (other poster take note! ) might be well-meaning does have a hint of heresy, I would have thought anyway.

Kundalini, as I understand the Hindu concept, is the spiritual/psychic power that is latent in people. To say that this power is, intrinsically, evil is I think to commit heresy.

Any power that we have is from God as His instruments. We do have certain physical make-up that allows for such communication and all else, but the power is God’s.

Fundamentalist Protestants believe this, because they believe in total depravity

I don’t know any apart from on a certain blogging site, and I wouldn’t say I know them, but I’ll put that too them and see what they say. Maybe they do!

…and see goodness as conforming to external rules. I don’t think this is an orthodox position.

Commandments seem like external rules but they are actually expressions of the motions of the heart.

For example, Jesus said when talking about sin, that it is not what goes in but what comes out, that reflects what is in the heart.

As Aquinas would say, grace perfects nature.

Nice! I like that.

At the same time, Hindus and Western yoga practitioners talk about the potential dangers of kundalini in ways that clearly do correspond to our understanding of the demonic.

Why play with matches in the first place then? As if they know everything, who are these practitioners, do they think they know everything there is to know that they are playing with - are they gurus or of the angelic realm? Please explain, where you think their authority on all matters spiritual, lies?

I

If you try to tap into the divine power latent in creation and make it serve your own selfish ends, then yes, I think you are absolutely opening yourself to the demonic.

Agreed.

The demonic is not an independent force–it’s a perversion of divine power. Satan sought to be equal to God, misusing the great power and beauty he was given by God.

Edwin

Exactly.

 

[friardchips]

A ring indicating marriage has pagan roots as well… It’s all about intent.

I think the circle was in nature before pagan worship.

 

[friardchips]

Neither of us who posted Pope Francis’ quote said any such thing. And if you actually read either post, you know that perfectly well.

Actually, if you are saying Pope Francis said one thing to mean one thing - allowing everything - then that is what the post suggests. Whether or not it is intended (poster please take note, again! ).

 

[christofirst]

It is not just intention left alone but education so our intentions can be good and fruitful.

Now let me focus your comment on intention, and I must agree that for our intention to be genuinely good, it must have a good foundation, so that we can indeed discern what is good or evil.

That said, I have always sought to align my practice of meditation and yoga with the teachings of the Church. I have sought the advise of the aforementioned Fr. Thomas Ryan, CSP, and also Fr. John Main, OSB, and Fr. Thomas Matus, OSB Cam. The fact that you or anyone here disagrees with their teaching does not make them any less faithful clergy of the Catholic Church, any more than my disagreeing with the Irish priest in your original post discredits him.

 

[friardchips]

JMHO but…

1. I try to do yoga at least once a week or I really get stiff and can’t keep up to my son Sometimes I slack and the next thing I know it’s 2 months later and I’m really stiff. So there is no “pull” for me to do yoga but the reverse. I have to force myself to do it because just stretching on my own isn’t nearly as miserable

Yes, but why do ‘Yoga’. Why not other stretches that don’t come under the banner. That is the point I’m trying raise.

1. I don’t think it’s an emotional attachment as much as it’s this: Most people (of all denominations) who peruse this site are striving to be faithful Christians.

No, the evidence, in this thread and others, fully and clearly suggests a very over-emotional attachment to Yoga.

The ones, like myself, who put a yoga video in to stretch once in a while get our dander up when someone suggests it’s the work of the devil. It would be akin to suggesting a fireman check the smoke detectors in his house this weekend

I think it is more akin to being on a Catholic Answers website and being involved in a thread that is asking where the line between what is dangerous to do and what is not, stands, when to do with a very specific subject. One that has not been vividly outlined by the Church as of yet. Call it a duty-of-care.

 

[friardchips]

Now let me focus your comment on intention, and I must agree that for our intention to be genuinely good, it must have a good foundation, so that we can indeed discern what is good or evil.

We are on the same page.

That said, I have always sought to align my practice of meditation and yoga with the teachings of the Church. I have sought the advise of the aforementioned Fr. Thomas Ryan, CSP, and also Fr. John Main, OSB, and Fr. Thomas Matus, OSB Cam. The fact that you or anyone here disagrees with their teaching does not make them any less faithful clergy of the Catholic Church, any more than my disagreeing with the Irish priest in your original post discredits him.

I agree.

Your intentions are not mine to analyse. That’s between you and God alone.

However, you are assuming that because a few priests do this they somehow represent the whole Church. But it does not take away their authority as priests, sure. That would be for God to do and not for us to judge. People don’t respect priests nearly enough.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Hi. Thank you for this response and all responses so far to others.

And as another poster said, if we are offering up our day then maybe simple exercise is all okay but as with my example of splitting the exercises from the meditation and how hard it is to do, and also the spiritualdirection.com website that is written fairly objectively, where is the answer? There is a logic I think to all the questions that raise whether exercise alone is still a bridge to the spirituality.

If people want to do exercise and there is no spiritual-pull then why not do other exercises that is not Yoga?

And why do people get so emotionally attached to this subject (much earlier in this thread and others) if there is no spiritual or emotional pull? Sometimes my questions, as in other previous threads, simply get ignored in the middle of dialogue with someone and an entirely different point immediately raised instead as if trying to reroute around the point being made). I have asked a few questions here but no one seems to want to give a proper reasoned response to my questions apart from stating the same declaration: “exercise is okay”. I respect their opinion but it would be nice if my questions weren’t just ignored after I’ve taken the time to think and write about them - but let’s save being offended, and I ask: why are people so emotionally attached to this if no spiritual pull on the human condition?

Thanks so far.

I think its a matter of convenience for many people. One can go to most local gyms and do a “yoga class”, it’s usually not really “yoga” but stretching. I doubt many people run into their Hindu gurus while doing their exercises at all. However, many instructors and those who are into the higher level stuff do end up taking on the Hindu spirituality. The same can be said of karate or martial arts - one need not be Buddhist but there are many Buddhist elements in many forms of martial arts from China, Japan, Korea, etc.

 

[friardchips]

The ones, like myself, who put a yoga video in to stretch once in a while get our dander up when someone suggests it’s the work of the devil.

Nevertheless, if those such as yourself say you do this and all is good as it helps you then I trust your opinions! Who am I? Just some OP on some thread somewhere on a computer somewhere in amongst a very big planet! If you say so, then I believe you. My question though could be better worded, maybe: “Would you advocate Yoga to other Christians, is it okay to do so?” I don’t think it is. But if you feel in God’s hands then I believe you. I suppose I’m looking at the bigger picture, rather than the individual case.

 

[friardchips]

I think its a matter of convenience for many people. One can go to most local gyms and do a “yoga class”, it’s usually not really “yoga” but stretching. I doubt many people run into their Hindu gurus while doing their exercises at all. However, many instructors and those who are into the higher level stuff do end up taking on the Hindu spirituality. The same can be said of karate or martial arts - one need not be Buddhist but there are many Buddhist elements in many forms of martial arts from China, Japan, Korea, etc.

Okay. Thanks. I used to attend gyms. This makes more sense to me. The higher up one goes the more dodgy ground it gets.

Maybe yoga practitioners are very quick to snatch up any position as being Yoga , when the position isn’t a lot of the time? Maybe “We need to take the power back…” (not into that music but it suited the film!)…

 

[friardchips]

As the OP I am running the risk of this being seen as a personal attack on people and want to quickly add that I don’t doubt, from one person to another, anyone’s good intentions, or whether they might be benefitting from Yoga, and if people struggle with physical issues particularly and are using Yoga to help them then my heart goes out to them, and hope it benefits.

My concerns are on a more general basis to do with the topic as a whole, as opposed to making absolute assessments from individual cases, although stories or personal accounts from either side do help to get an overall idea - which is why I started the thread.!Coming admittedly from a somewhat biased perspective and at present standing by it, still, all arguments are welcome, and no offence is and was intended in any way whatsoever.

 

[friardchips]

We use incense at Mass. Incense has been used in the worship of pagan gods for millennia. As has our usual folding of hands in prayer.

Pagan worship is more understandable and logical-thinking than aspects of some eastern religions. It stands to reason that if there is a big old sun and pretty stars looking down at us which have been for all time, that at some point people were going to think they were somehow the very life-sources of their existence. The same as the elements - it is natural for people to at some point have believed that these were possibly gods or something or the emotions of higher beings.being communicated to us.

P Benedict said that all other religions that existed before were tasters of the one that is. They just don’t contain the WHOLE truth. I always believed that. They were reaching for something but didn’t quite get it exact. Look at the Egyptians. They worshipped three gods. Not bad really. Pretty close. So if we take one thing from something else, we are not taking it from that thing but putting that thing in its rightful place. Repositioning. Maybe some could argue this about Yoga. Attributing it to God instead. But I think Rome needs to make that binding if so and possible, as has humorously been suggested already in a cartoon, call it something else. The Snake we could have, but this could be a stamping-down-with-the-heel movement, instead of what it is - putting the position in its rightful place!

 

[ptisme]

Yes, but why do ‘Yoga’. Why not other stretches that don’t come under the banner. That is the point I’m trying raise.

No, the evidence, in this thread and others, fully and clearly suggests a very over-emotional attachment to Yoga.

I think it is more akin to being on a Catholic Answers website and being involved in a thread that is asking where the line between what is dangerous to do and what is not, stands, when to do with a very specific subject. One that has not been vividly outlined by the Church as of yet. Call it a duty-of-care.

It doesn’t HAVE to be Yoga. I do the tapes for stretching and they guy is talking and joking through it. I don’t do the Yoga where you meditate and all that. I’m telling you I haven’t done yoga since October. This is the first I’ve thought about it other than thinking how tight my Achilles are getting. I don’t have to do it but when I get tight I do it without guilt because there is no spiritual or emotional attachment to it for me. And I’m not emotional about the issue. If you don’t feel right about it that’s your call and it doesn’t upset me…

 

[rinnie]

Yes. He said “Do not seek SPIRITUAL answers in yoga class.”

Didn’t say one word about doing the exercises, thank you.

But what you don’t understand there is an underlying source to those innocent stretches. Music, chants, etc. Just saying!

 

[friardchips]

It doesn’t HAVE to be Yoga. I do the tapes for stretching and they guy is talking and joking through it. I don’t do the Yoga where you meditate and all that. I’m telling you I haven’t done yoga since October. This is the first I’ve thought about it other than thinking how tight my Achilles are getting. I don’t have to do it but when I get tight I do it without guilt because there is no spiritual or emotional attachment to it for me. And I’m not emotional about the issue.

So there are alternatives then.

If you don’t feel right about it that’s your call and it doesn’t upset me…

How many curse words did you say under your breath to yourself in-between posts with me on this topic

 

[ptisme]

Nevertheless, if those such as yourself say you do this and all is good as it helps you then I trust your opinions! Who am I? Just some OP on some thread somewhere on a computer somewhere in amongst a very big planet! If you say so, then I believe you. My question though could be better worded, maybe: “Would you advocate Yoga to other Christians, is it okay to do so?” I don’t think it is. But if you feel in God’s hands then I believe you. I suppose I’m looking at the bigger picture, rather than the individual case.

I would advocate it only because I don’t get into the meditation… I’m a physical therapist. I told a patient one time that he was tight in every single muscle he shouldn’t be. I mean the guy was like molasses in January tight if you know what I mean. He said he tries to stretch but he can’t get any where with it. When I suggested Yoga (Longer more sustained stretching) he said that’s un-Christian and he wouldn’t think of doing it. That is the first I heard of this being un-Christian as I was unaware of the whole meditation thing… Does that make sense?

 

[friardchips]

But what you don’t understand there is an underlying source to those innocent stretches. Music, chants, etc. Just saying!

A symbolic pattern recognised and reverberating through to the nether-regions.

 

[ptisme]

As the OP I am running the risk of this being seen as a personal attack on people and want to quickly add that I don’t doubt, from one person to another, anyone’s good intentions, or whether they might be benefitting from Yoga, and if people struggle with physical issues particularly and are using Yoga to help them then my heart goes out to them, and hope it benefits.

My concerns are on a more general basis to do with the topic as a whole, as opposed to making absolute assessments from individual cases, although stories or personal accounts from either side do help to get an overall idea - which is why I started the thread.!Coming admittedly from a somewhat biased perspective and at present standing by it, still, all arguments are welcome, and no offence is and was intended in any way whatsoever.

No offense taken. In fact, I think you should start another thread on Dungeons and Dragons

 

[ptisme]

Pagan worship is more understandable and logical-thinking than aspects of some eastern religions. It stands to reason that if there is a big old sun and pretty stars looking down at us which have been for all time, that at some point people were going to think they were somehow the very life-sources of their existence. The same as the elements - it is natural for people to at some point have believed that these were possibly gods or something or the emotions of higher beings.being communicated to us.

P Benedict said that all other religions that existed before were tasters of the one that is. They just don’t contain the WHOLE truth. I always believed that. They were reaching for something but didn’t quite get it exact. Look at the Egyptians. They worshipped three gods. Not bad really. Pretty close. So if we take one thing from something else, we are not taking it from that thing but putting that thing in its rightful place. Repositioning. Maybe some could argue this about Yoga. Attributing it to God instead. But I think Rome needs to make that binding if so and possible, as has humorously been suggested already in a cartoon, call it something else. The Snake we could have, but this could be a stamping-down-with-the-heel movement, instead of what it is - putting the position in its rightful place!

What is “the snake”?