YOGA...ooer!

[Contarini]

Hi there! At last, an objective angle. True, our bodies are temples, it is a valid point, but aren’t we taught in Christianity to deny our bodies and take care of the Spirit within us?

No. We aren’t.

This is the fascinating thing that comes up in discussions of yoga. Sooner or later we usually get this argument. But this is precisely the heretical perspective that Christians typically identify with those overly influenced by Eastern religions–denial of our bodiliness. The fact is that Yoga, as practiced by Westerners, helps us become more aware of our bodies and helps us worship God with our bodies. This fits with the Christian theology of creation and Incarnation.

Now the fact that an Eastern practice helps us do this may indicate that we are taking it out of its original context, or it may indicate that in fact we have misunderstood the Eastern religions when we accuse them of denying the body. But either way, it’s the pro-yoga position that is in agreement with Christian orthodoxy. The body is good. We are not called to deny the body, but the flesh–the sinful desires that draw us away from the love of God and of neighbor. Yoga helps us gain control of our bodies and thus helps us in the denial of the flesh.

And yes, I’m arguing for yoga as spirituality. The one point where you and I agree is that it makes little sense to defend yoga purely as physical exercise. What makes yoga distinctive from other forms of physical exercise is precisely that it integrates exercise with spirituality. And that is something many of us in the West desperately need.

Edwin

 

[ptisme]

No. We aren’t.

This is the fascinating thing that comes up in discussions of yoga. Sooner or later we usually get this argument. But this is precisely the heretical perspective that Christians typically identify with those overly influenced by Eastern religions–denial of our bodiliness. The fact is that Yoga, as practiced by Westerners, helps us become more aware of our bodies and helps us worship God with our bodies. This fits with the Christian theology of creation and Incarnation.

Now the fact that an Eastern practice helps us do this may indicate that we are taking it out of its original context, or it may indicate that in fact we have misunderstood the Eastern religions when we accuse them of denying the body. But either way, it’s the pro-yoga position that is in agreement with Christian orthodoxy. The body is good. We are not called to deny the body, but the flesh–the sinful desires that draw us away from the love of God and of neighbor. Yoga helps us gain control of our bodies and thus helps us in the denial of the flesh.

And yes, I’m arguing for yoga as spirituality. The one point where you and I agree is that it makes little sense to defend yoga purely as physical exercise. What makes yoga distinctive from other forms of physical exercise is precisely that it integrates exercise with spirituality. And that is something many of us in the West desperately need.

Edwin

The highlighted I couldn’t disagree with more. Yoga provides a three dimensional stretch that puts the body in positions that conventional stretches do not. Plus the fact that the stretching is functional and sustained further adds to its effectiveness.

 

[Contarini]

The highlighted I couldn’t disagree with more. Yoga provides a three dimensional stretch that puts the body in positions that conventional stretches do not. Plus the fact that the stretching is functional and sustained further adds to its effectiveness.

Right, but it would be quite possible to “repackage” the physical element, as some conservatives demand.

Another point often ignored is that yoga as we know it was developed about a century ago by Indians drawing on their own traditions and on British traditions of physical exercise. I agree that the resulting synthesis is great, but my point is that the spiritual element is a key part of what makes yoga yoga. Just as Krishnamacharya and his students took elements of British physical culture and used them to revive hatha yoga, so Westerners could take the physical elements of yoga and repackage them if that’s what they wanted to do. I thought that’s what Pilates does, but perhaps I’m poorly informed on that point.

I’ll grant that perhaps I stated it too strongly. It was a personal statement–my own interest in yoga is fueled to a great extent by the spiritual dimension, or rather the integration of the two.

Edwin

 

[friardchips]

No. We aren’t.

This is the fascinating thing that comes up in discussions of yoga. Sooner or later we usually get this argument. But this is precisely the heretical perspective that Christians typically identify with those overly influenced by Eastern religions–denial of our bodiliness. The fact is that Yoga, as practiced by Westerners, helps us become more aware of our bodies and helps us worship God with our bodies. This fits with the Christian theology of creation and Incarnation.

We do that by not sinning and doing things which offend God.

Now the fact that an Eastern practice helps us do this may indicate that we are taking it out of its original context, or it may indicate that in fact we have misunderstood the Eastern religions when we accuse them of denying the body. But either way, it’s the pro-yoga position that is in agreement with Christian orthodoxy. The body is good. We are not called to deny the body, but the flesh–the sinful desires that draw us away from the love of God and of neighbor. Yoga helps us gain control of our bodies and thus helps us in the denial of the flesh.

Okay…we don’t need control. You talk about self-control. Exactly what is the issue. Relying on God is a bit like falling back and letting someone catch you. We let God be in control. That is key. Self-control, hmm. You just hit it on the head.

And yes, I’m arguing for yoga as spirituality. The one point where you and I agree is that it makes little sense to defend yoga purely as physical exercise. What makes yoga distinctive from other forms of physical exercise is precisely that it integrates exercise with spirituality. And that is something many of us in the West desperately need.

Edwin

Well, I agree with you, that in the West, maybe (I can’t speak for others and I think there are very spiritual people who pray a lot in the U.K at least) could do with embracing our spirituality a bit more via meditation etc…but this is where our opinion ends, at least where your last paragraph is concerned and the reason is because, although I can see a need for people to embrace prayer and meditation helps to do this, there are already recognised and deeply, deeply spiritual forms of meditation in Christianity that can be embraced and the only reason people choose other things instead is because sitting down with God in silence and being still - “Be Still and know that I am God” - is harder to do, for some, harder to concentrate or focus. Without persistance one can become distracted.

 

[friardchips]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I think from a Christian perspective yoga stretches are a way of honoring God through prayer of the body. You make it sound like masterbation (feel-good culture) when on the contrary, it is about alignment, strength, balance and focus.

I am not criticising your intentions. Certainly everything can be offered up to God.

When you say ‘masturbation’, in actual fact, although it conjures up something a bit more literal, Yoga, or massaging self, could be seen as a kind of spiritual masturbation (although indirectly). Jesus wasn’t reported to have gone off and done lots of stretches in the desert, He might have done the odd morning hands out stretch; rather, He did somewhat the opposite, He fought the devil, as did St. Michael and the Angels at the beginning, with prayer and theology, and in Jesus’ case, fasting also. He denied, yes, the body, and temporal needs, for the sake of the Spirit.

 

[friardchips]

'Trust In Providence - Matthew 6:25-33:

“That is why I am telling you not to worry about your life and what you are to eat, not about your body and how you are to clothe it. Surely life means more than food, and the body more than clothing! Look at the birds in the sky. They do not sow or reap or gather into barns; yet your Heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they are? Can any of you, for all his worrying, add one single cubit to his span of life? And why worry about clothing? Think of the flowers growing in the fields; they never have to work or spin; yet I assure you that not even Solomon in all his regalia was robed like one of these. Now if that is how God clothes the grass in the field which is there today and thrown into the furnace tomorrow, will He not much more look after you, you men of little faith? So do not worry; do not say, “What are we to eat? What are we to drink? How are we to be clothed?” It is the pagans who sets their hearts on all these things. Your Heavenly Father knows you need them all. Set your hearts on His Kingdom first, and His righteousness, and all these other things will be given you as well.”’

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I am not criticising your intentions. Certainly everything can be offered up to God.

When you say ‘masturbation’, in actual fact, although it conjures up something a bit more literal, Yoga, or massaging self, could be seen as a kind of spiritual masturbation (although indirectly). Jesus wasn’t reported to have gone off and done lots of stretches in the desert, He might have done the odd morning hands out stretch; rather, He did somewhat the opposite, He fought the devil, as did St. Michael and the Angels at the beginning, with prayer and theology, and in Jesus’ case, fasting also. He denied, yes, the body, and temporal needs, for the sake of the Spirit.

Yes, pray, fasting, and almsgiving have an important place in healthy spirituality. But it is not wrong to ease pain, correct posture, breath more deeply and relieve stress. As I have said, yoga stretches are more a body discipline with natural benefits. To compare it to masterbation is a total distortion. Would you also say going to a chiropractor is like going to a prostitute?

 

[ptisme]

Right, but it would be quite possible to “repackage” the physical element, as some conservatives demand.

Another point often ignored is that yoga as we know it was developed about a century ago by Indians drawing on their own traditions and on British traditions of physical exercise. I agree that the resulting synthesis is great, but my point is that the spiritual element is a key part of what makes yoga yoga. Just as Krishnamacharya and his students took elements of British physical culture and used them to revive hatha yoga, so Westerners could take the physical elements of yoga and repackage them if that’s what they wanted to do. I thought that’s what Pilates does, but perhaps I’m poorly informed on that point.

I’ll grant that perhaps I stated it too strongly. It was a personal statement–my own interest in yoga is fueled to a great extent by the spiritual dimension, or rather the integration of the two.

Edwin

Let’s take the Yoga position called “downward dog”. It works great for stretching hamstrings, Low back and Lats at the same time. Would I be closer to Christ if I gave this exercise out to my patients and renamed it “the triangle”? Or would the illuminati people be on me then?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Right, but it would be quite possible to “repackage” the physical element, as some conservatives demand.

Another point often ignored is that yoga as we know it was developed about a century ago by Indians drawing on their own traditions and on British traditions of physical exercise. I agree that the resulting synthesis is great, but my point is that the spiritual element is a key part of what makes yoga yoga. Just as Krishnamacharya and his students took elements of British physical culture and used them to revive hatha yoga, so Westerners could take the physical elements of yoga and repackage them if that’s what they wanted to do. I thought that’s what Pilates does, but perhaps I’m poorly informed on that point.

I’ll grant that perhaps I stated it too strongly. It was a personal statement–my own interest in yoga is fueled to a great extent by the spiritual dimension, or rather the integration of the two.

Edwin

Somehwere I read a very good article about the history of yoga as we have coem to know it and that articletouched upon the British influence. Do you know where I can find it?

 

[ptisme]

'Trust In Providence - Matthew 6:25-33:

“That is why I am telling you not to worry about your life and what you are to eat, not about your body and how you are to clothe it. Surely life means more than food, and the body more than clothing! Look at the birds in the sky. They do not sow or reap or gather into barns; yet your Heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they are? Can any of you, for all his worrying, add one single cubit to his span of life? And why worry about clothing? Think of the flowers growing in the fields; they never have to work or spin; yet I assure you that not even Solomon in all his regalia was robed like one of these. Now if that is how God clothes the grass in the field which is there today and thrown into the furnace tomorrow, will He not much more look after you, you men of little faith? So do not worry; do not say, “What are we to eat? What are we to drink? How are we to be clothed?” It is the pagans who sets their hearts on all these things. Your Heavenly Father knows you need them all. Set your hearts on His Kingdom first, and His righteousness, and all these other things will be given you as well.”’

I think this quote has more to do with dedicating your life to Christ then it does about the type of exercise you do.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

"That is why I am telling you not to worry about your life and what you are to eat, not about your body and how you are to clothe it. Surely life means more than food, and the body more than clothing! "

Do you read this to mean that Jesus is giving us permission to eat as much transfat as we want, jung food and soda? I see it as a warning not to be preoccupied with satisfying our hunger.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I am not criticising your intentions. Certainly everything can be offered up to God.

When you say ‘masturbation’, in actual fact, although it conjures up something a bit more literal, Yoga, or massaging self, could be seen as a kind of spiritual masturbation (although indirectly). Jesus wasn’t reported to have gone off and done lots of stretches in the desert, He might have done the odd morning hands out stretch; rather, He did somewhat the opposite, He fought the devil, as did St. Michael and the Angels at the beginning, with prayer and theology, and in Jesus’ case, fasting also. He denied, yes, the body, and temporal needs, for the sake of the Spirit.

Western Christianity hasn’t really been overly physical, the frozen chosen, isn’t that the term used?

Eastern Christianity is physical, to the point that prostrations through prayer would probably satisfy most of what ‘yoga as stretching’ does without the Hindu spirituality aspect.

the problem is, many in the West find Hinduism and/or pseudo-Hindu/Eastern practices mystical and exotic. And at the same time are unaware, indifferent, or unwelcoming of Eastern Christianity, because they think they already know all there is to know about all Christianity from their own experiences (“I went to Sunday School/CCD as a kid you know”).

youtube.com/watch?v=7XqVPK6bjt0
youtube.com/watch?v=ABBMQxb77J0

 

[friardchips]

I think this quote has more to do with dedicating your life to Christ then it does about the type of exercise you do.

It is what it is. A line from Heat (I like films! ).

Both are combined anyway, surely? If we seek to steer away from the things that suggest indulgence the more we can be open to being led on a path of righteousness. Less is more.

The posts have improved by a million-fold (I think anyway - appreciating the arguments for).

 

[friardchips]

Do you read this to mean that Jesus is giving us permission to eat as much transfat as we want, jung food and soda? I see it as a warning not to be preoccupied with satisfying our hunger.

It has to do with not worrying. Trusting in God. But also setting our minds on Jesus and the Kingdom that is in Him because His kingdom is about the poor and needy and the suffering. Our appetite for cravings and things to feel nice can be distractions from the Kingdom. In order to understand the people one is to serve, one is to be poor and humble in Spirit, so as to serve the poor and the humble. This is why Jesus said it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for the ‘rich’ to get into Heaven - those who seek to scratch every itch.

 

[friardchips]

I think this quote has more to do with dedicating your life to Christ then it does about the type of exercise you do.

…and, the type of ‘exercise’ we do is surely down to discernment?

 

[friardchips]

Western Christianity hasn’t really been overly physical, the frozen chosen, isn’t that the term used?

Eastern Christianity is physical, to the point that prostrations through prayer would probably satisfy most of what ‘yoga as stretching’ does without the Hindu spirituality aspect.

the problem is, many in the West find Hinduism and/or pseudo-Hindu/Eastern practices mystical and exotic. And at the same time are unaware, indifferent, or unwelcoming of Eastern Christianity, because they think they already know all there is to know about all Christianity from their own experiences (“I went to Sunday School/CCD as a kid you know”).

youtube.com/watch?v=7XqVPK6bjt0
youtube.com/watch?v=ABBMQxb77J0

Interesting to get another perspective on this. But I would have to say though, that prostration is about fervour. Anyone who really desperately needs God will do this from time to time. Saints are reported to have done this. It can be lamentation or just outright: “I am not worthy, Lord”, type prayer. But if the Eastern Churches do this as the norm, as opposed to the West where we might do that in private, then that is wonderful!

Loads of things to watch here form youtube, provided by yourself and other posters, so interesting viewing to come.

You made a point about Sunday School etc…but these people have my respect. The ones who stuck it out going to Mass all their lives even if they didn’t have religious experiences in the ways a convert might have had. The ones that never saw as such but blindly trusted. We live in a Western culture where the very culture itself, at least in the U.K, is quite reserved in terms of the Church but this is in a sense an important contrast to the extremely liberal world we live in. But being buttoned up uncomfortably doesn’t help matters, or faith, but I think the Church is growing from the changes which were made around the time of the Second Vatican Council, and more people are opening up to a richer faith life. I think we, as a Church - East and West - are being drawn by the Holy Spirit and the prayers of Our Lady towards real depth of faith - and this is necessary because of the extent of the massive obstacles. She is becoming a poor Church, so to speak. A church where the laity enriched are people who suffer and who would prostrate themselves on the floor. I think it is in poorer countries in the East, S. America and in Africa where faith really thrives.

 

[friardchips]

Somehwere I read a very good article about the history of yoga as we have coem to know it and that articletouched upon the British influence. Do you know where I can find it?

I’d like to see it too.

 

[friardchips]

Do you deny your body when you genuflect or kneel? When you go to the doctor? When you get proper exercise and diet? Taking proper care of the Spirit within us involves proper care and discipline of the body because we are incarnated beings. Yoga stretches are one of many ways to do that.

Galatians 2:20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

Kneeling can be a lesser form of prostration in the sense that it can be uncomfortable. It is a kind of respectful bowing in humble submission.

 

[friardchips]

Yes, pray, fasting, and almsgiving have an important place in healthy spirituality. But it is not wrong to ease pain, correct posture, breath more deeply and relieve stress. As I have said, yoga stretches are more a body discipline with natural benefits. To compare it to masterbation is a total distortion. Would you also say going to a chiropractor is like going to a prostitute?

This comes back to the old question though: if one were to relieve pain then why choose Yoga? A poster earlier said they have issues but don’t have to do Yoga as there are other practices not linked with Hindu Spirituality.

Do you think then, that there is no danger, under any circumstance, especially for Christians, if one does Yoga, even if one doesn’t avoid the spiritualism attached to it?

Contarini, in a post earlier: “I agree that the resulting synthesis is great, but my point is that the spiritual element is a key part of what makes yoga yoga.”

• this is the argument on the links I provided which suggest it is hard for the two to be separated.

 

[friardchips]

Let’s take the Yoga position called “downward dog”. It works great for stretching hamstrings, Low back and Lats at the same time. Would I be closer to Christ if I gave this exercise out to my patients and renamed it “the triangle”? Or would the illuminati people be on me then?

I think there are two things here. First, to break any link to the devil with a blessing for the exercises which are attributed to thousands of years of worship to so-called self-empowering gods. Second, would you hand out hand cream to a woman if it was named something blasphemous against your faith?