YOGA...ooer!

[friardchips]

I read somewhere a while back,I think it was St Catherine who was confronted with a false apparition of Jesus.When she realized it she prayed about how to discern the difference.Jesus told her that when He is responsible for an apparition the person will experience fear and awe because they are in the presence of their Maker. When the evil one tries to seduce a feeling of wellbeing and bliss will happen but be a false peace.

This is majorly incomplete and therefore false and also negligent.

As far as my prayer life you have no idea about it

You seem to think you can preside over the subject of contemplation and then don’t like it when others assess your situation from your own words!

St Teresa said that contemplation is merely a fixed gaze at Jesus.It is being with the One who loves us. St Teresa is a doctor of the Church and she did not experience any consolations or closeness with God until probably 30 years of vocal prayer and meditation.

It is up to our Creator as to whom, when and where He chooses to give consolation, or allow desolation. Again, negligent, because this is lacking some knowledge and is incomplete.

Friadchips,you can pray while you are sitting at a stop light,or making dinner or even in the shower.Prayer is talking to God and listening to what He says. I have had MANY answers to prayers so I just keep trying to obey the commandments and be a good person. I am not looking for any special consolations or favors because I know God loves me even though I have tons of faults.

You have, yet again, mistaken the context of my post for some other imagined theory, so please, yet again, make sure you fully understand my post, by actually reading it, before responding, otherwise it interrupts the thread. Your posts can be disruptive otherwise and therefore lacking any reason in being posted in the first place.

If you want to make outright statements, then you could always start your own thread, but it seems to me that this is a discussion forum, not a blog about your own absolute judgements on us, saints, and all of Church history.

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I have put my arguments to other posters here - feel free to respond, but if we could try and at least acknowledge and even engage with the context of what each poster is attempting to express when they leave their comments, then maybe this could be considered caring and therefore a fruit of love.

 

[christofirst]

There is no such thing as Christian yoga

Really?

forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=21741&stc=1&d=1431011309

 

[cjforJesus]

This is majorly incomplete and therefore false and also negligent.

You seem to think you can preside over the subject of contemplation and then don’t like it when others assess your situation from your own words!

It is up to our Creator as to whom, when and where He chooses to give consolation, or allow desolation. Again, negligent, because this is lacking some knowledge and is incomplete.

You have, yet again, mistaken the context of my post for some other imagined theory, so please, yet again, make sure you fully understand my post, by actually reading it, before responding, otherwise it interrupts the thread. Your posts can be disruptive otherwise and therefore lacking any reason in being posted in the first place.

If you want to make outright statements, then you could always start your own thread, but it seems to me that this is a discussion forum, not a blog about your own absolute judgements on us, saints, and all of Church history.

---

I have put my arguments to other posters here - feel free to respond, but if we could try and at least acknowledge and even engage with the context of what each poster is attempting to express when they leave their comments, then maybe this could be considered caring and therefore a fruit of love.

Frairdchips,I am NOT talking about contemplation but warning about dabbling in the occult practice of attempting to arouse kundalni. That is what yoga is all about. Haven’t you figured that out yet? I have nothing against people praying or trying to get closer to God.

I am trying to be charitable but you seem to be misunderstanding what I am trying to say.

I asked a carmelite friar about kundalini once and asked if it was the Holy Spirit and he seemed horrified and said “no”. So what is it? No one seems to know even those who claim to have awakened it including Gopi Krishna…

 

[christofirst]

I believe the person who does Christian Yoga is doing Yoga AND praying.

There is a saying that goes: 'You can’t smoke while you pray but you can pray while you smoke’.

Well, I don’t smoke, but I could reword this saying: “I wouldn’t work while I pray but I can pray while I work”.

If I were to have a conversation with you, and it was important, deep, soul level stuff, and you were occupying yourself by doing other things at the same time as talking to me, even though this was supposed to be time set aside for us to speak, then I would consider it insensitive, even though I still heard what your (name removed by moderator)ut was; or, maybe I didn’t respond to your (name removed by moderator)ut because I required your full attention and was hurt by your lack of it.

If you read the link I provided you will see a very important section from the CCC quoted further down the page. I am going to post it either way as it is relevant.

I accept that you see this differently than I do, and I appreciate the warnings. These warnings actually moved me to research this topic, to try to reconcile the disparity between the various claims.

What I cannot allow to pass are absolute statements like, “Christians are forbidden to practice yoga,” and “There is no such thing as Christian yoga,” because such statements are wrong. When I see them in your thread, I feel compelled to correct them. I hope you understand.

 

[cjforJesus]

Really?

forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=21741&stc=1&d=1431011309

Christo,the title of a book does not mean these people are actually practicing kundalini arousal. It is meditation and exercise. A person can write a book about anything and give it any title they want.

 

[cjforJesus]

I accept that you see this differently than I do, and I appreciate the warnings. These warnings actually moved me to research this topic, to try to reconcile the disparity between the various claims.

What I cannot allow to pass are absolute statements like, “Christians are forbidden to practice yoga,” and “There is no such thing as Christian yoga,” because such statements are wrong. When I see them in your thread, I feel compelled to correct them. I hope you understand.

But there is no such thing as Christian “yoga”.It is exercise! Yoga is an attempt to arouse a firey serpent power that will control the practitioner and dissolve his personality and remake it into what the serpent wants…

Pope Francis said that yoga will NOT bring you closer to God,but a pure loving heart will.

The so called yoga in these books is just stretching! REal yoga is part of a spiritual practice originally meant only for highly advanced adepts. It was a
closely guarded secret reserved for only the elite few.

 

[friardchips]

Edited.

 

[friardchips]

…for only the elite few.

Elite?

 

[friardchips]

Frairdchips,I am NOT talking about contemplation but warning about dabbling in the occult practice of attempting to arouse kundalni. That is what yoga is all about. Haven’t you figured that out yet? I have nothing against people praying or trying to get closer to God.

I am trying to be charitable but you seem to be misunderstanding what I am trying to say.

I asked a carmelite friar about kundalini once and asked if it was the Holy Spirit and he seemed horrified and said “no”. So what is it? No one seems to know even those who claim to have awakened it including Gopi Krishna…

Okay. It seems we have misunderstood one another. Sorry for my part in the confusion.

I am not disagreeing with you, but still, let’s attempt to put our points forward as cases up for debate allowing room for others to breathe.

 

[friardchips]

I accept that you see this differently than I do, and I appreciate the warnings. These warnings actually moved me to research this topic, to try to reconcile the disparity between the various claims.

What I cannot allow to pass are absolute statements like, “Christians are forbidden to practice yoga,” and “There is no such thing as Christian yoga,” because such statements are wrong. When I see them in your thread, I feel compelled to correct them. I hope you understand.

I do. Thank you for your continuing participation on the thread.

 

[christofirst]

Christo,the title of a book does not mean these people are actually practicing kundalini arousal. It is meditation and exercise. A person can write a book about anything and give it any title they want.

Actually, Catholic author Philip St. Romain did have what he describes as a kundalini experience. He wasn’t practicing yoga in order that this should happen - he did not even know what it was at first - but it happened. People disagree with him, I know, but then there’s plenty of mudslinging on the web. My personal thought is that the vast majority of people practicing yoga will never experience what Mr. Romain did, but his experience is available to read for anyone who is interested (I’d post a photo of his book, *Kundalini Energy and Christian Spirituality, *but I think you get my point).

Now the other two authors I mentioned, Fr. Jean-Marie Dechanet, O.S.B., and Fr. Thomas Ryan, C.S.P., are not just two dudes who decided to write books on yoga. Fr. Dechanet, as a Benedictine, had to submit his book on Christian Yoga to his abbot, and the Order’s censors, and eventually to his bishop in order to receive the Imprimatur and the Nihil Obstat, which it did. That’s a lot of Church authorities who got it wrong, if I’m reading you right. And Fr. Thomas Ryan’s book was actually published by his Order, The Missionary Society of St. Paul the Apostle (the Paulists), which implies approval at some higher level of Church authority level as well. Both of these Catholic authors are not just talking about yoga as stretching and exercise (which it is), but that it can also be incorporated into a genuine Christian spirituality (which it can).

You can say whatever you like about yoga, but please don’t make like you speak for the entire Church on this topic.

 

[friardchips]

Actually, Catholic author Philip St. Romain did have what he describes as a kundalini experience. He wasn’t practicing yoga in order that this should happen - he did not even know what it was at first - but it happened. People disagree with him, I know, but then there’s plenty of mudslinging on the web. My personal thought is that the vast majority of people practicing yoga will never experience what Mr. Romain did, but his experience is available to read for anyone who is interested (I’d post a photo of his book, *Kundalini Energy and Christian Spirituality, *but I think you get my point).

Now the other two authors I mentioned, Fr. Jean-Marie Dechanet, O.S.B., and Fr. Thomas Ryan, C.S.P., are not just two dudes who decided to write books on yoga. Fr. Dechanet, as a Benedictine, had to submit his book on Christian Yoga to his abbot, and the Order’s censors, and eventually to his bishop in order to receive the Imprimatur and the Nihil Obstat, which it did. That’s a lot of Church authorities who got it wrong, if I’m reading you right. And Fr. Thomas Ryan’s book was actually published by his Order, The Missionary Society of St. Paul the Apostle (the Paulists), which implies approval at some higher level of Church authority level as well. Both of these Catholic authors are not just talking about yoga as stretching and exercise (which it is), but that it can also be incorporated into a genuine Christian spirituality (which it can).

You can say whatever you like about yoga, but please don’t make like you speak for the entire Church on this topic.

I just want to pick you up on something here. The Pope does speak for the Church, and he has spoken, so where does that leave these advocates of Yoga, along with your written assertion, of what is and what can be?

There were some Benedictines, or so I believe, who tried to incorporate the Hindu religion into the Catholic Mass, in India. Could you tell us, please, if these are the people you are referring to?

Thanks.

 

[cjforJesus]

Actually, Catholic author Philip St. Romain did have what he describes as a kundalini experience. He wasn’t practicing yoga in order that this should happen - he did not even know what it was at first - but it happened. People disagree with him, I know, but then there’s plenty of mudslinging on the web. My personal thought is that the vast majority of people practicing yoga will never experience what Mr. Romain did, but his experience is available to read for anyone who is interested (I’d post a photo of his book, *Kundalini Energy and Christian Spirituality, *but I think you get my point).

Now the other two authors I mentioned, Fr. Jean-Marie Dechanet, O.S.B., and Fr. Thomas Ryan, C.S.P., are not just two dudes who decided to write books on yoga. Fr. Dechanet, as a Benedictine, had to submit his book on Christian Yoga to his abbot, and the Order’s censors, and eventually to his bishop in order to receive the Imprimatur and the Nihil Obstat, which it did. That’s a lot of Church authorities who got it wrong, if I’m reading you right. And Fr. Thomas Ryan’s book was actually published by his Order, The Missionary Society of St. Paul the Apostle (the Paulists), which implies approval at some higher level of Church authority level as well. Both of these Catholic authors are not just talking about yoga as stretching and exercise (which it is), but that it can also be incorporated into a genuine Christian spirituality (which it can).

You can say whatever you like about yoga, but please don’t make like you speak for the entire Church on this topic.

Pope Francis said that doing yoga is not going to get you closer to God.The only thing necessary is a pure heart. Love God and love your neighbor. But you are correct that stretching and exercising can be incorporated into a CHristian life,but that is not really yoga.

These days there seems to be an unnatural obsession with mystcism and acheiving some advanced altered state of consciousnes. There are numerous books written from so many perspectives and they all seemed obsessed with attaining some hidden occult power. Jesus never hid anything and everything we need for salvation is in our Holy Church.

 

[cjforJesus]

I just want to pick you up on something here. The Pope does speak for the Church, and he has spoken, so where does that leave these advocates of Yoga, along with your written assertion, of what is and what can be?

There were some Benedictines, or so I believe, who tried to incorporate the Hindu religion into the Catholic Mass, in India. Could you tell us, please, if these are the people you are referring to?

Thanks.

I suggest anyone avoid Mr Romains writings as they are VERY occult. He is a very intelligent man and like Gopi Krishna knew exactly what he was doing. One does not awaken kundalini accidentally but it is intentional,unlike contemplation which is a gift.

 

[christofirst]

I just want to pick you up on something here. The Pope does speak for the Church, and he has spoken, so where does that leave these advocates of Yoga, along with your written assertion, of what is and what can be?

There were some Benedictines, or so I believe, who tried to incorporate the Hindu religion into the Catholic Mass, in India. Could you tell us, please, if these are the people you are referring to?

Thanks.

You are likely thinking of Bede Griffiths and Henri Le Saux, but no, these are not the priests I’m referring to. The bishop who approved Fr. Dechanet’s book was Bishop Emiel-Jozef De Smedt of Belgium, who reigned from 1952-1984, and was a Council Father.

The Popes have indeed spoken, though not all that much, about yoga, and nowhere do they outright condemn the practice for Catholics. They acknowledge it, and they offer warnings, as a prudent shepherd should do, but nowhere is it actually condemned.

Let’s take this further. Fr. Dechanet wrote in the 1950’s, before the Second Vatican Council, and his books on yoga were widely published in many different languages. Did the Pope, or any bishop, or the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith ever censure his book or silence this priest? No. He remained a priest in good standing until his death in 1993, and his books remain available. Fr. Ryan is alive and well today, and his ministry is well known. He has been actively advocating yoga as an option for Catholics through the papacies of St. JPII, Benedict, and now Francis. If the popes are as adamant against yoga as some here wrongly claim, why hasn’t this rogue priest been reprimanded and silenced. Apparently, he is not a rogue priest, but indeed, a priest in good standing, whose message is available for any who might be interested.

 

[friardchips]

You are likely thinking of Bede Griffiths and Henri Le Saux, but no, these are not the priests I’m referring to. The bishop who approved Fr. Dechanet’s book was Bishop Emiel-Jozef De Smedt of Belgium, who reigned from 1952-1984, and was a Council Father.

The Popes have indeed spoken, though not all that much, about yoga, and nowhere do they outright condemn the practice for Catholics. They acknowledge it, and they offer warnings, as a prudent shepherd should do, but nowhere is it actually condemned.

Let’s take this further. Fr. Dechanet wrote in the 1950’s, before the Second Vatican Council, and his books on yoga were widely published in many different languages. Did the Pope, or any bishop, or the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith ever censure his book or silence this priest? No. He remained a priest in good standing until his death in 1993, and his books remain available. Fr. Ryan is alive and well today, and his ministry is well known. He has been actively advocating yoga as an option for Catholics through the papacies of St. JPII, Benedict, and now Francis. If the popes are as adamant against yoga as some here wrongly claim, why hasn’t this rogue priest been reprimanded and silenced. Apparently, he is not a rogue priest, but indeed, a priest in good standing, whose message is available for any who might be interested.

Thanks for this. I see your point as clearly explained. But you are, maybe not intentionally, skimming over the word ‘warning’ here as if this word is to be taken lightly. As far as I knew, the Church is not in the business of condemning, sometimes excommunicating, but not condemning religious for having ideas. But ‘warning’ is a serious word and not to be taken lightly as pronouncements would have been made after thorough research. Research is different to practice. The problem with your advocates of Yoga is that they seemingly practiced Yoga, but if one binds oneself, via a practice, then one is not in a sufficient place to make sound assessment, rather, the practitioner becomes biased in their opinion, or better still, bound, to their manifesting objective.

 

[TMC]

cjforJesus;12956198**:

Pope Francis said that doing yoga is not going to get you closer to God.

The only thing necessary is a pure heart. Love God and love your neighbor. But you are correct that stretching and exercising can be incorporated into a CHristian life,but that is not really yoga.

These days there seems to be an unnatural obsession with mystcism and acheiving some advanced altered state of consciousnes. There are numerous books written from so many perspectives and they all seemed obsessed with attaining some hidden occult power. Jesus never hid anything and everything we need for salvation is in our Holy Church.

In the same sermon, in fact the same sentence, the Pope also said that the Catechism will not get you closer to God. His point was that only by allowing the Holy Spirit to soften your heart can you get closer to God. He did not condemn Yoga, or the Catechism.

 

[christofirst]

Thanks for this. I see your point as clearly explained. But you are, maybe not intentionally, skimming over the word ‘warning’ here as if this word is to be taken lightly. As far as I knew, the Church is not in the business of condemning, sometimes excommunicating, but not condemning religious for having ideas. But ‘warning’ is a serious word and not to be taken lightly as pronouncements would have been made after thorough research. Research is different to practice. The problem with your advocates of Yoga is that they seemingly practiced Yoga, but if one binds oneself, via a practice, then one is not in a sufficient place to make sound assessment, rather, the practitioner becomes biased in their opinion, or better still, bound, to their manifesting objective.

I hope I am not ignoring or taking too lightly any warnings from the Church, and again, I appreciate whenever they are brought up in a spirit of brotherly concern, but not when their meaning gets twisted and misconstrued into a condemnation, which they are not. When necessary, the Church warns and even condemns against error. For example, some of the writings of the Jesuit Father Anthony de Mello were issued a warning by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, then under the direction of Joseph Ratzinger. But the books I mentioned on Christian yoga received no such scrutiny or warning. Could it be that yoga as described by Dechanet and Ryan is in fact acceptable for Catholics? Could the Vatican warnings against yoga relate more to the Hindu and Buddhist notions which accompany yoga as it is practiced in the east, but which are not a part of yoga as endorsed by Frs. Dechanet and Ryan? In their writings, they take great care to ensure that yoga does not become some mishmash of religious ideas, but that it conforms to and complements our Catholic faith.

 

[cjforJesus]

In the same sermon, in fact the same sentence, the Pope also said that the Catechism will not get you closer to God. His point was that only by allowing the Holy Spirit to soften your heart can you get closer to God. He did not condemn Yoga, or the Catechism.

Yes,I already posted that earlier about the catechism too.I think the Holy Father was saying that seeking God through yoga or the study of any literature is futile. Knowing God comes from the heart. KNowing He is always there,the indwelling Trinity who came to dwell with us at our baptisms.

 

[friardchips]

I hope I am not ignoring or taking too lightly any warnings from the Church, and again, I appreciate whenever they are brought up in a spirit of brotherly concern, but not when their meaning gets twisted and misconstrued into a condemnation, which they are not. When necessary, the Church warns and even condemns against error. For example, some of the writings of the Jesuit Father Anthony de Mello were issued a warning by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, then under the direction of Joseph Ratzinger. But the books I mentioned on Christian yoga received no such scrutiny or warning. Could it be that yoga as described by Dechanet and Ryan is in fact acceptable for Catholics? Could the Vatican warnings against yoga relate more to the Hindu and Buddhist notions which accompany yoga as it is practiced in the east, but which are not a part of yoga as endorsed by Frs. Dechanet and Ryan? In their writings, they take great care to ensure that yoga does not become some mishmash of religious ideas, but that it conforms to and complements our Catholic faith.

Taking your whole post into account, I would say “no”. Not because I want to win an argument as this thread is not about ‘winning’. It is about what is true as far as we know. So, in that vain, because we care about what is true, we continue in recognition of the fact that warnings are to be taken seriously when announced by our spiritual fathers. So your question up for debate is for me quite clear. Pope Francis included the word “Catechism” in his warning / advice which clearly suggests he was speaking to Catholics. This makes sense. He did not go into detail, which suggests that ANY combination of Yoga, any at all, with or without Christian prayer, is not advisable because the objective of prayer is to be with/commune with.

My other question stands, about Yoga AND prayer: if one is doing Yoga for use in prayer, the message is clear - the two do not compliment; if one is doing Yoga as exercise and one decides to pray while doing it then this is more understandable, however, this would suggest a person doing Yoga as exercise is not being honest with his or herself, because if you were doing exercise for the sake of exercise only, then you could be doing a number of other exercises instead, yet the truth is, that the Christian who is practicing Yoga has sought it out specifically, therefore, bringing into your life the history of this practice.

So if one is bringing Hindu spirituality into their Christian prayer this would be a contradictory process because Christian prayer is Christian prayer and Hindu spirituality is Hindu…

So if one were to do Yoga as exercise as a Christian then it is disingenuous because the practitioner has obviously looked up Yoga before doing it and knows from where its roots derive, and we know that the roots, when Yoga is recognised as YOGA, entail all this philosophy etc… from the Eastern non-Christian religions.

So if one were to do Christian Yoga, I think this is a meaningless title, or a progressive one, because I think that this would mean you were doing Yoga AND praying. And as I said before, as the saying goes, but reworded: “I might pray while I work but avoid working while I pray”.