You are my disciples, if you have love for one another

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NoelFitz

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It seems a present that we live in a very polarized Church, where many Catholics seem to be divided.

In the Church there seems strong antipathy between progressives and traditionalists, liberals and conservative, left and right, blue and red, cradle Catholics and converts, Europeans and Americans, etc.

Some time ago as a preliminary to this discussion I sought a list of new lay Catholic groups. The discussion degenerated into an attach where accusations of relativism were made.

At present some Catholics do not go to Mass, believe in contraception etc. while others practise more.

Can we not unite in our common religion and focus on the importance of loving God and neighbor?

Or should we write off those who are a bit wobbly, yet remembering we are all sinners needing God’s mercy.
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal. 3:27-28 NAB)

This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." (Jn. 13:35 NAB)

I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose. (1 Cor. 1:10 NAB)

[PS: I am not sure if my post should be here, as I am unfamiliar with the new layout]
 
I sense polarization as well, but it is not so noticeable while sitting in mass itself. The places it becomes clearer are in any type of discussion format, like small groups at a bible study or here at CAF, or maybe when reading news venues.

At a bible study, someone attacked me for commenting that the Catechism says the other senses of scripture are based in the literal sense. I wanted to write the person off for that. We were both wrong. I think it is very difficult to get past things like this, and we see the results daily while reading here. I’m not sure people these days are skilled at navigating civil discussion. I’m not sure we are invested in truly understanding each other, perhaps because it takes serious work. Love takes work too, at times.
 
NoelFitz said:
Can we not unite in our common religion and focus on the importance of loving God and neighbor?

Or should we write off those who are a bit wobbly, yet remembering we are all sinners needing God’s mercy.
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Matthew 18 (1 At that time the disciples approached Jesus and said, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” …)
15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. 16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
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Pug
thanks for a great reply.
I agree with you. However at Mass numbers are decreasing, the old die off
and the young do not replace them. But the support of the congregation is
appreciated.
 
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I read here "And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as
the heathen and publican".

Perhaps the problem lies here. The Church is rarely infallible. Individual
conscience counts. Remember what the Bible said

Can a mother forget her infant, be without tenderness for the child of her
womb? Even should she forget, I will never forget you. See, upon the palms
of my hands I have engraved you; your walls are ever before me.
  • (Isa. 49:15-16 NAB)*
Is it love that rejects one if you do not do exactly what is
commanded; Would you turn your back on your wife or child if your rebuke is
not accepted?

Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all
things. (1 Cor. 13:7 NAB)

[PS: Is there still a part of CAF for Scripture?]
 
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NoelFitz said:
I read here "And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as
the heathen and publican".

Perhaps the problem lies here. The Church is rarely infallible. Individual
conscience counts. Remember what the Bible said

Can a mother forget her infant, be without tenderness for the child of her
womb? Even should she forget, I will never forget you. See, upon the palms
of my hands I have engraved you; your walls are ever before me.
  • (Isa. 49:15-16 NAB)*
Is it love that rejects one if you do not do exactly what is
commanded; Would you turn your back on your wife or child if your rebuke is
not accepted?

Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all
things. (1 Cor. 13:7 NAB)

[PS: Is there still a part of CAF for Scripture?]
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The one who continues in sin is no longer seen as a true witness. The blot on the fellowship has to be removed. For example, excommunication is actually an act of mercy:

Catechism
2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” 77 “by the very commission of the offense,” 78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. 79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
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Also see Acts 5:1-11
1 BUT a certain man named Ananias, with Saphira his wife, sold a piece of land, 2 And by fraud kept back part of the price of the land, his wife being privy thereunto: and bringing a certain part of it, laid it at the feet of the apostles. 3 But Peter said:
Ananias, why hath Satan tempted thy heart, that thou shouldst lie to the Holy Ghost, and by fraud keep part of the price of the land? 4 Whilst it remained, did it not remain to thee? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? Why hast thou conceived this thing in thy heart? Thou hast not lied to men, but to God.
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5 And Ananias hearing these words, fell down, and gave up the ghost. And there came great fear upon all that heard it. 6 And the young men rising up, removed him, and carrying him out, buried him.

7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what had happened, came in. 8 And Peter said to her:
Tell me, woman, whether you sold the land for so much? And she said: Yea, for so much. 9 And Peter said unto her: Why have you agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Behold the feet of them who have buried thy husband are at the door, and they shall carry thee out.
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10 Immediately she fell down before his feet, and gave up the ghost. And the young men coming in, found her dead: and carried her out, and buried her by her husband. 11 And there came great fear upon the whole church, and upon all that heard these things.
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There is an Apolgetics Category.
 
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NoelFitz said:
Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all

things. (1 Cor. 13:7 NAB)

[PS: Is there still a part of CAF for Scripture?]
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Amen. Yes, I will try to link it up


We ought not abandon someone. God loves the person, so as His adopted sons and daughters we ought to love the person. So we act as love would require to the person. I mean actual Love, not fake modern love.
 
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“while there is among you envying and contention, are you not carnal and walk according to man?” (1 Cor 3:3) Hereto angelic doctor comments: “Here it should be noted that he was right in joining envying with contention, because envying, i.e., jealousy, is the food of contention, for a jealous person is grieved at another’s good, which the latter tries to improve and from this arises strife. Hence James says: ‘where envying and contention exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice’ (Jas 3:16). On the other hand, charity through which a person loves another’s good is the source of peace.” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Com 1 Cor, c. 3, l. 1, 126)

To Noel Fitz: St. John says : "The ancient to the lady Elect, and her children, whom I love in the truth, and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth, For the sake of the truth which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever. Grace be with you, mercy, and peace from God the Father, and from Christ Jesus the Son of the Father; in truth and charity. (2 Jn v.1-3) The apostolic faith seeks unity in the truth. Yes, conscience is an individual reality. But particularly, the individual by the correct order to find peace must be specific with himself and confess it to others. “Although actions are of individuals, yet their first principle of action is nature, which tends to one thing” (STh I-II, q. 1, a. 7, rep. 1) The truth tends to heaven by taking on the divine nature: “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” (Jn 14:6) “you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.” (2 Pet 1:4) How do we fly, in a sense it takes into account what S. John said: “Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that continueth in the doctrine, the same hath both the Father and the Son.” (2 Jn 9)

To Pug: Regarding what you said about the bible study, I would like to present the Angelic Doctor: “For there are some who are impatient from ignorance, as long as they do not know how to use adversities for virtue.” (Com on Job, C. 4, L. 1, ch. 4 v. 6)

Regarding with Vico: “The earth is given only to wise men because they are lords of earthly goods in that they use them only for their own good. However, foolish men use them to their own harm, as Wisdom says, ‘creatures were made as a snare to the feet of the foolish’ (Wis 14:11). To show the dignity of these men he says, and the stranger will not tread their ground, because those who are strangers to wisdom cannot be numbered among the fellowship of the wise, or because the wise are not at the mercy of strangers. For the stranger is said to tread on those who are conquered and are made subject to the power of a foreigner.” (ibid., C. 15, L. 2, 15:27)
 
Vico

Thanks, I always appreciate your replies, as they show solid, traditional
Catholicism and challenge me.

You wrote:* The one who continues in sin is no longer seen as a true
witness*

Thus none of us is a true witness (Christian ??).

I am reminded of:

But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his
eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a
sinner.’ I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for
everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles
himself will be exalted." (Lk. 18:13-14 NAB)

One might also consider:

all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. (Rom. 3:23 NAB)
  • If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves, and the truth is
    not in us. If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will
    forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing. If we say, “We have
    not sinned,” we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 Jn. 1:8-10
    NAB)*
 
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Vico

I am not considering abortion. Some Catholics seem to reject the Church’s teaching on contraception.
You quote Peter, but his record is not great. He denied the Lord and Paul considered him a hypocrite.
 
Pug
I really admire your approach. I think your values are similar to my (better ??) ones.
I am pleased you are forgetful, welcome to the club.
 
First Corinthians has been on my mind of late. Maybe it would be wise for us all to read through that and understand that this is an old problem for the Church and an old problem for Christians.
 
Hymin
I do not see how a discussion of envy and contention is relevant.

St John seems to imply there is goodness in us. As far as I know the Church teaches that all of us have are both good and evil - the famous Catholic both/and.

I am recommended to reply to all in one post, but I consider a blanket reply does not acknowledge the importance of each individual’s contributions.
 
Your contribution did much to edify me.

To your point, understanding discovers the hidden things. I urge you to keep seeking light. And the blanket is yours to wrap yourself with and amongst the faithful! it is not mine
 
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NoelFitz said:
continues in sin …
Thus none of us is a true witness (Christian ??). …
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It was Zaccheus, the Tax Collector, that was repentant, and Jesus choose to dine with.

Not all continue in sin but repent of it, even though all have sinned. Those in the state of sanctifying grace are true. Note in the Catechism item below the phrase: “the community of the People of God from which sin had alienated or even excluded”.

Catechism
1443 During his public life Jesus not only forgave sins, but also made plain the effect of this forgiveness: he reintegrated forgiven sinners into the community of the People of God from which sin had alienated or even excluded them. A remarkable sign of this is the fact that Jesus receives sinners at his table, a gesture that expresses in an astonishing way both God’s forgiveness and the return to the bosom of the People of God. 44
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pnewton’s suggestion is excellent, and calls to mind a difficult verse germane to our topic:

…you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. 1 Cor 5:5

This is in the context of a man who was living with his father’s wife. I think “to Satan” here may mean some type of being in the world, but I’m not sure. The verse ends with hope.
 
hymin said:
To Pug: Regarding what you said about the bible study, I would like to present the Angelic Doctor: “For there are some who are impatient from ignorance, as long as they do not know how to use adversities for virtue.” (Com on Job, C. 4, L. 1, ch. 4 v. 6)
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I like Aquinas. Yes, it is good to remember that, At the time, all discipline seems a cause not for joy but for pain, yet later it brings the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who are trained by it. Heb 12:11 We must strive for peace with everyone.
 
Pug, we need discipline. Everyone struggles with bad tendencies which do not order to right reason. But yet, we can be assured that Jesus is walking side by side with us - from his incarnation to the final judgment. And he gives his gentle partnership to the most irrational of us.
 
The Church in her nature purposes “if you cooperate toward the good, you receive the reward of that good” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Com on Mt Ch. 1, L. 2, 34) The good is the object of desire. “Considering what God is, namely, goodness itself, he cannot be hated, for good is always loved in itself.” (ibid. Ch. 6, L. 5, 621) If a soul strives to cooperate fully with grace - he will try to despise money and himself in right measure in accord with the presented state of life. Ultimately, the striving for an only full desire of goodness itself - will make that persistance good. God crowns his gifts. Ultimately, the soul either corporates with His predesentation or not. True doctrine is required so that true good is obtained. Many who chase vanity thought many things were good - ultimately, they reject goodness itself. As it says in Psalms: 'Let them that make them (that complete the pursuit of the made preception of the substitute of God) become like unto them: and all such as trust in them." (Ps 115:8) Those who trust in idols are not desiring the good. But what mortal can truly see what one desires? Hence, we should not put a stumbling block.

“there is another reason, to point out that there is hardly ever a large congregation without someone evil; and so he set it down this way to show that good men are sometimes not without evil men. ‘As the lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters’ (Song 2:2). And Augustine: ‘my house is not better than the Lord’s house.’” (ibid., Com on Mt, Ch. 10, L. 1, 812)
 
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NoelFitz said:
Vico

I am not considering abortion. Some Catholics seem to reject the Church’s teaching on contraception.
You quote Peter, but his record is not great. He denied the Lord and Paul considered him a hypocrite.
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1462 Forgiveness of sins brings reconciliation with God, but also with the Church. …

1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, …
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