you are not welcome here...

[GladCatholic]

I’m just curious. Do you believe that life begins at conception and that abortion is never justified? Do you believe it is okay for a Catholic to vote for a pro-abortion politician? Are there any circumstances you believe someone should be denied communion?

Okie dokie…I typed a whole response and then saw your response, lol.

[edited]

Glad

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I’ll join the chorus, your pastor is 100% correct.

Anyone who supports abortion is in a state of serious sin and should not receive Communion.

He didn’t say they weren’t welcome in Church, just not at the Communion rail.

Also, unless they change their position on abortion, simple confession will do no good. A sin can not be absolved if you intend to continue committing it.

Only sins can be confessed as sins - it is not clear that everything called “supporting abortion” is sinful in nature, let alone a sin. It depends what that phrase refers to.​

God Bless

What is meant by “supporting abortion” ?​

Thinking - for example - that a woman has a right to choose whether to conceive or bear may be wrong in one way or another: but it is far removed from active participation in abortion. To make a phrase such as “supporting abortion” refer to both things is very dangerous; they are not morally equivalent, & nothing should be done to suggest that they are. “Support” can be used of any attitude from non-rejection of a thing, to advocacy of it by terrorism - & an issue of this importance calls for the greatest possible clarity in the use of language. People are scrupulous enough already without there being a need to add further imaginary sins.

BTW, “serious sin” does not mean the same as “mortal sin”. Some venial sins are much more serious than other venial sins, but that does not make them mortal. “Serious” may overlap with “mortal” - again, that is not the same as saying that the two classifications are identical.

Besides, people should not assume too readily that they are in a state of mortal sin - even if they are so on paper, that does not mean they are in reality.

 

[estesbob]

Okie dokie…I typed a whole response and then saw your response, lol.

[edited]

Glad

Go ahead and PM it to me. I’ve got it coming!

 

[estesbob]

Only sins can be confessed as sins - it is not clear that everything called “supporting abortion” is sinful in nature, let alone a sin. It depends what that phrase refers to.​

What is meant by “supporting abortion” ?​

Thinking - for example - that a woman has a right to choose whether to conceive or bear may be wrong in one way or another: but it is far removed from active participation in abortion. To make a phrase such as “supporting abortion” refer to both things is very dangerous; they are not morally equivalent, & nothing should be done to suggest that they are. “Support” can be used of any attitude from non-rejection of a thing, to advocacy of it by terrorism - & an issue of this importance calls for the greatest possible clarity in the use of language. People are scrupulous enough already without there being a need to add further imaginary sins.

BTW, “serious sin” does not mean the same as “mortal sin”. Some venial sins are much more serious than other venial sins, but that does not make them mortal. “Serious” may overlap with “mortal” - again, that is not the same as saying that the two classifications are identical.

Besides, people should not assume too readily that they are in a state of mortal sin - even if they are so on paper, that does not mean they are in reality.

The problem is that politicians who publicly support abortion are publicly rejecting the teachings of the church. Whether it reaches the threshold of a mortal sin for them on an individual level is irrelevant. Allowing them to receive communion causes public scandal and weakens the churches teachings on abortion.

I believe the proper course is private dialogue with their bishop and barring an agreement on their part with the church a mutual agreement that they will not present themselves for Communion. It is always been my belief that the priest should not be faced with the decision as to whether or not to give them communion. They should respect the faith enough to notpresent themselves for it

 

[SFD]

SFD:

SFD:

I think it is a duty of the priest to refuse communion to someone who is a public sinner. Catholics have a right to the Sacrament but with every right there is a corresponding duty. That duty is to be absolved of any mortal sins before approaching the rail. Since a priest cannot read hearts but can only know the externals he must refuse a public sinner to avoid a sacrilege and to avoid scandal.

The knowing denial of even a theologically certain teaching of the Church is a mortal sin.

SFD

Either this is correct or it is not. I know that it is correct. Now, it seems that there are many out there in CAF-land that really don’t care what the proper action is for a priest facing an unrepentant public sinner.

As I stated, you folks seem to care more about what YOU think the priest should do and care nothing for what the DUTY of the priest is in this situation.

SFD

 

[Nordar]

Because I am reading deficient and messed up the attribtution THATS WHY!!!

Oh OK!:

 

[Nino]

It is so refreshing to read about a priest with values…imagine telling a person who endorses the murder of developing babies that he/she is not a nice person and should only hang around with folks of his own kind! I remember seeing an old flick…Stage coach…starring the ever popular John Wayne…in an opening scene…a group of local women.with a holier then thou attitude were escorting a prostitute out of town to this stage coach,of course as was always the case the women were homely and pomperous while the prostitute was cute,humble and quickly received our love and sympathy…well in due time ony smirking John the duke,Wayne would sit with this fallen flower. When Hitler arrived in Rome Pope PiusX11 left the city for he did not have to be forced to welcome this monster…the Vatican ,was nuetral as a nation,but in values detested sin…gee how out.of date…why not invite the folks who endorse abortion to your homes and have tea with them…show them how tolerant you are and how you hate the pastor for his stand on goodness.At Nurenburg Albert Spear worned his way out of the hangmans noose,even tho he was responsible for the killing of millions of innocent people…he served years in prison,looked great when released and wrote a book,made money and lived into his 80s…see,those who do evil seem to manage quite well in this world.

 

[OnlyAmbrose]

Only sins can be confessed as sins - it is not clear that everything called “supporting abortion” is sinful in nature, let alone a sin. It depends what that phrase refers to.​

I beg to differ. Try these two sins:

1. Heresy
2. Scandal

BTW, “serious sin” does not mean the same as “mortal sin”. Some venial sins are much more serious than other venial sins, but that does not make them mortal. “Serious” may overlap with “mortal” - again, that is not the same as saying that the two classifications are identical.

Besides, people should not assume too readily that they are in a state of mortal sin - even if they are so on paper, that does not mean they are in reality.

Heresy is certainly a “grave sin” and therefore constitutes are mortal sin when it is willfully committed in full knowledge of its wrongdoing. Given how clear the Church teaching on abortion is, and given that most politicians are smart people (with a few exceptions, I’ll admit ), it’s perfectly reasonable to assert that they are in a state of mortal sin.

 

[KingAlfred]

I find it important to avoid discussions concerning abortion. It’s way too emotionally charged as an issue. Many lose control of themselves over it and literally go crazy. To me, it’s ‘off limits’. Truthfully, I make it a point to never listen to Father Pavone on EWTN, since fighting abortion is the only thing he cares about. If you’ve heard him once, you’re ‘good’ for the rest of your life. No disrespect intended, but the abortion issue is almost a religion unto itself.

 

[Harmony1988]

1 Corinthians 13:1:

If I speak with the languages of men and of angels, but don’t have love, I have become sounding brass or clanging cymbal.

This man lacks love.

Many of these types believe their supposed zeal covers their behavior, but they are blinded by spiritual pride. It is an interesting dynamic. Someone should do a study on it.

I’ve noticed many of the same people have all kinds of food phobias, and immunization conspiracy theories, and other similar complexes. Anyone who doesn’t completely agree with every thought is an enemy of the True Faith. It must be some form of scrupulosity, maybe even paranoia.

A rather rash judgement, I hope you were actually there to witness what he has said, if not, seriously reconsider your statements/

 

[Harmony1988]

If you guys are having so much trouble over this priest’s attitude, I suggest you closely look at St. Pius X.

Game over.

 

[nbjayme]

If you’ve heard him once, you’re ‘good’ for the rest of your life. No disrespect intended, but the abortion issue is almost a religion unto itself.

Either one wants to be in the Catholic religion or be his own religion.

Either we believe the Church has a duty for our soul or build a church where our own opinion is king.

Logic states that if God is true and did establish a religion then don’t go knocking to his turf if you want your own way.

 

[nbjayme]

let me see…

Jesus rebuked the Pharasees and Scribes during his time using the words:
Vipers… Fool… Generation of Vipers…

There is a saying: “Use a Carrot or a Stick”.

For hardened sinners a carrot is not enough.

We need to look at the real intention and motivation and see past the attitude. Even Padre Pio once rebuked an immodest person in the Church.

[DRC] Matthew 3:7 (John the Baptist)
And seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them: Ye brood of vipers, who hath shewed you to flee from the wrath to come?

— John the Baptist rejected them from baptism.

[DRC] Matthew 12:34
O generation of vipers, how can you speak good things, whereas you are evil? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

[DRC] Luke 3:7 (St. John the Baptist)
He said therefore to the multitudes that went forth to be baptized by him: Ye offspring of vipers, who hath shewed you to flee from the wrath to come?

[DRC] Luke 11:40
Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without, make also that which is within?

 

[CradleCath]

If I speak with the languages of men and of angels, but don’t have love, I have become sounding brass or clanging cymbal.

This man lacks love.

Many of these types believe their supposed zeal covers their behavior, but they are blinded by spiritual pride. It is an interesting dynamic. Someone should do a study on it.
I
've noticed many of the same people have all kinds of food phobias, and immunization conspiracy theories, and other similar complexes. Anyone who doesn’t completely agree with every thought is an enemy of the True Faith. It must be some form of scrupulosity, maybe even paranoia.

Scrupulosity?? Paranoia?? FOOD PHOBIAS??? Good Lord, it sounds to me like this good priest has just “had it”. And the congregation sounds to me like a child who runs to Mama whenever things don’t go their way.

Did any of the congregation talk to HIM, before they went to see his bishop?? That’s the way adults do things you know. If one doesn’t like something that their boss tells them to do…they first go to said boss to discuss it. If the parishioners didn’t follow that path, I agree with him, “Shame on them”.

The fact that any Catholic can even think that condemning the wholesale murder of the unborn is “scrupulosity”…well, perhaps they should look at these stats.

•
guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

At least half of American women will experience an unintended pregnancy by age 45[4], and, at current rates,** about one-third will have had an abortion.[5,6] **

WHO HAS ABORTIONS?
• Fifty percent of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25: Women aged 20–24 obtain 33% of all abortions, and teenagers obtain 17%.[7]

• Thirty-seven percent of abortions occur to black women, 34% to non-Hispanic white women, 22% to Hispanic women and 8% to women of other races.**

• Forty-three percent of women obtaining abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and 27% as Catholic****.[3]

• Women who have never married obtain two-thirds of all abortions.[3]

• About 60% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children.[7]

• The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women). This is partly because the rate of unintended pregnancies among poor women (below 100% of poverty) is nearly four times that of women above 200% of poverty* (112 vs. 29 per 1,000 women[3,1]

• The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals;
three-fourths say they cannot afford a child;
three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents;
**and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.**8]

** Twenty-two percent of all pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion.[2]**

And what about those women who are having their second or third abortion. Should the priest “welcome” them to the Communion Rail?

lifeissues.net/writers/air/air_vol2no3_1989.html#rar

In 1987 the Alan Guttmacher Institute took a survey of 9480 women at approximately 100 abortion clinics throughout the U.S. and found that 42.9% of the women said they were having repeat abortions. 26.9% were having a second abortion; 10.7% were having a third abortion; and 5.3% were having a fourth abortion or more. (Henshaw 1987, 1988)

Based upon these figures and also extrapolating the fourth abortion or more category to more precise figures based upon state health department reports of repeat abortions, it is estimated that there were about 643,500 repeat abortions in the U.S. in 1987 out of a total of 1.5 million abortions. Of these 403,500 women had a second abortion; 160,500 had a third abortion; 53,250 had a fourth abortion; 17,500 had a fifth abortion; 4400 had a sixth abortion and 4400 had a seventh or higher abortion.
**
The highest known number of reported abortions by one woman is 29. The woman**

Since so many on this thread are giving their opinion about a priest they’ve never met, I’ll venture a guess about the congregation. I’ll wager that this is an affluent, white parish & the priest hit a nerve. There is no other explanation that makes sense. Why else would the people have handled this so poorly.
adults not discussing thier feelings with the priest…before they “tattled” to the Bishop.

PS. I’d love to know where you got your info re Traditionalist & “food phobias”. If you could supply a link…

 

[Nordar]

I find it important to avoid discussions concerning abortion. It’s way too emotionally charged as an issue. Many lose control of themselves over it and literally go crazy. To me, it’s ‘off limits’. Truthfully, I make it a point to never listen to Father Pavone on EWTN, since fighting abortion is the only thing he cares about. If you’ve heard him once, you’re ‘good’ for the rest of your life. No disrespect intended, but the abortion issue is almost a religion unto itself.

I find it important to not avoid what the Church teaches about abortion. It is way too evil, way too many babies are murdered, ones who commit abortion have most certainly lost control of Gods teaching and have literally gone crazy.
To me it is anything but off limits, it is my duty as a Catholic to let others know Abortion is wrong, we are called by God to fight for those innocents.
Father Pavone cares about a lot more than abortion, however abortion is his cause and Bless him for it.
No disrespect intented, the abortion issue is a very grave ill in this world and in this Country: A religion by itself nope don’t believe so, Evil yes!

 

[fix]

I find it important to avoid discussions concerning abortion. It’s way too emotionally charged as an issue. Many lose control of themselves over it and literally go crazy. To me, it’s ‘off limits’. Truthfully, I make it a point to never listen to Father Pavone on EWTN, since fighting abortion is the only thing he cares about. If you’ve heard him once, you’re ‘good’ for the rest of your life. No disrespect intended, but the abortion issue is almost a religion unto itself.

It’s emotionally charged because innocent children are being killed. Kinda important, no?

 

[Lee_M]

I find it important to avoid discussions concerning abortion. It’s way too emotionally charged as an issue. Many lose control of themselves over it and literally go crazy. To me, it’s ‘off limits’. Truthfully, I make it a point to never listen to Father Pavone on EWTN, since fighting abortion is the only thing he cares about. If you’ve heard him once, you’re ‘good’ for the rest of your life. No disrespect intended, but the abortion issue is almost a religion unto itself.

What time does the cafeteria open?

 

[Joe_5859]

it is soooo sad that after 8 pages of replies, there are very few people here who care enough for the prodigal sons of this world to try and reach out to them with care and love. it is amazing how many Catholic Christians have the “we don’t want your kind around here” attitude. Christ doesn’t have this attitude when we go to Him in confession! why then should we, who are supposed to be imitators of Christ, have any different attitude than Christ accepting us in the confessional? Christ came to heal the sick, and those who received the most anger from Christ were the self-righteous, while the sinners and sick received the most COMPASSION.

read Matthew 5:44-48 and Mark 7:5-13

I think one of the reasons that you haven’t found much sympathy from people is because all we have to go on is your account of what the priest said. And what the priest said seems fully in accordance with Church teaching, something many of us would love to hear more of from our priests. With so few priests even talking about abortion, people here get excited to hear of such a priest out there who is not afraid to speak about it.

You said that the priest said that people who support abortion are not welcome at the Communion rail (i.e. they shouldn’t receive Communion). If the priest had said that such people weren’t welcome at all, then you may have found more sympathizers.

You state that the priest has a “bad attitude”. You could very well be right. But, not having heard the priest ourselves, try not to fault people too much for not jumping on that bandwagon. When the quotes from the priest which you provided seem harmonious with Church teaching, I think some of us have a hard time imagining that it’s an attitude problem on the priest’s part.

Most of us could probably cite examples of people who have responded to the truth by blaming the messenger. Just think of all the people who accuse Christians of “hate speech” simply for speaking the truth about homosexuality. Thus, it’s not too much of a stretch for many of us to imagine that the problem lies not with the messenger (the priest) but the recipients of the message (the parishioners).

I’m not trying to pass judgment on you or your fellow parishioners in this regard. You could very well be right that the priest is unduly harsh and alienating, even if he speaks the truth (just as their certainly are some people who speak the truth about homosexuality in a very hateful way). I only offer this as an explanation of why you have received the responses you have. Most of us are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a priest who is speaking the truth on an issue that so frequently is avoided entirely.

So, try not to take it too personally.

 

[pnewton]

Truthfully, I make it a point to never listen to Father Pavone on EWTN, since fighting abortion is the only thing he cares about.

I would like to point out that this is untrue, even if it appears that way. Just because Fr. Pavone is called to the ministry of protecting the innocent unborn does not mean that is all he is. Read not just 1 Corinthians 13, but the previous chapter. Fr. Pavone and other focus on the fight against abortion as a primary vocation.

I, too, wish abortions wasn’t always such an issue. Perhaps some day we will halt this great evil and there will cease to be the need to constantly fight against it.

 

[fix]

That priest could benefit from a Dale Carnegie course…

Dale Canegie? Is that the Gospel standard now?

The incident happend in a Catholic Church with folks who have been going there for years. What is striking is that the response is one of hand wringing and walking away and blaming the priest instead of looking inwardly and thinking wow how can I amend my life to follow the Church more closely.

Seems to be an age old issue, not one confined to this poor priest’s temperment.