you are not welcome here...

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I really do not see how anyone can be ‘pro-abortion’ and Catholic. Its rather like being a vegetarian who eats meat (I know Catholicism isn’t a single issue, but pro-life is a major strand).

Another thread pointed out how one may call oneself Catholic, but that does not mean that you are Catholic in terms of being faithful and devout.

By this I mean that my understanding is that as Catholics we accept the teachings of the Church. I’ve only recently had the ‘aha’ moment of realising that. Prior to that I did pick and choose and disagree with some teachings.

God bless
Karen
 
Fran65 said:
I really do not see how anyone can be ‘pro-abortion’ and Catholic. Its rather like being a vegetarian who eats meat (I know Catholicism isn’t a single issue, but pro-life is a major strand).

Another thread pointed out how one may call oneself Catholic, but that does not mean that you are Catholic in terms of being faithful and devout.

By this I mean that my understanding is that as Catholics we accept the teachings of the Church. I’ve only recently had the ‘aha’ moment of realising that. Prior to that I did pick and choose and disagree with some teachings.

God bless
Karen
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I agree. Those that are pro-abortion and claim to be Catholic are doing just that. Claiming to be.
 
dang71 said:
i don’t disagree, but you must also be honest to yourself and everyone on this thread and recognize that the condescending attitude, at the very LEAST, doesn’t help.

again, i don’t disagree, but if the tone is corrected, then the people cannot claim that as an excuse, and will have to look deeper at the message. having people look deeper at the truth is exactly what we want, so the obstacle of nasty attitudes should be removed.
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Hi Dang, welcome back.🙂

I think that I speak for many of us here and we have a question.

In your initial post you said that the Priest in question had made some changes that apparently distressed some members of the congregation so much that they left the Parish and then complained to the Bishop. From the the post it seemed that the tirade on the Priests part was at least in part in response to their actions.

Could you tell us what the changes were? And what was so bad about them that they made people leave the Parish?

Thanks.
 
Fran65 said:
I really do not see how anyone can be ‘pro-abortion’ and Catholic. Its rather like being a vegetarian who eats meat (I know Catholicism isn’t a single issue, but pro-life is a major strand).

Another thread pointed out how one may call oneself Catholic, but that does not mean that you are Catholic in terms of being faithful and devout.

By this I mean that my understanding is that as Catholics we accept the teachings of the Church. I’ve only recently had the ‘aha’ moment of realising that. Prior to that I did pick and choose and disagree with some teachings.

God bless
Karen
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I just wanted to mention here that questioning or disagreeing in your heart does not make you a bad Catholic. You can’t help how you feel with some things. What you have to do is FOLLOW the teaching of the Church anyway and study and pray that you will come to the full knowledge of why it is so. I would say for most practicing Catholics the abortion issue is a no-brainer but there are certainly other things that many struggle with. We are human after all. :rolleyes:
 
dang71 said:
ok, lets all step back from the emotions and look at the facts in this case:
  1. this has been a conservative parish for many years.
  2. all the previous (N.O.) pastors have taught authentic Catholic morals.
  3. a traditionalist pastor is transferred in.
  4. a group of people from the parish complain to the bishop about the traditionalist pastor.
  5. the traditionalist pastor criticizes them in a homily and concludes with “shame on you!”
  6. the traditionalist pastor claims in a homily that those in a state of sin (in this particular case it was the sin of abortion) are “not welcome at the communion rail”.
my position is this:
  1. he is incorrect. all are welcome, but those who are in a state of sin need to correct that first. saying you are not welcome is just the same as saying you are not wanted, and this is completely wrong.
  2. his attitude is unnecessarily abrasive. his abrasive attitude is causing people to leave the parish (I’m considering it, too).
  3. his attitude and tone during homilies (and elsewhere) is important, as he is a representative of the Church. if his tone and attitude causes long-time members to leave the parish, then he is in grave error.
  4. he is in grave error for not even attempting a reconciliation, but instead criticizing people publicly in a homily.
i am posting in a traditionalist forum because he is a traditionalist priest. i am also posting here because i think his attitude mirrors that of many traditionalists (one example is the responses in this thread), and i wanted to show how this attitude doesn’t help anyone, but causes only division and conflict. “a house divided cannot stand”, and having the “you’re not wanted” attitude only increases the division. the fruits of his labors are people leaving the parish and complaining about him when they have not complained about any other priest that has come before him (even though the previous priests were good, orthodox priests). a good tree bears good fruit, and division and conflict are not good fruit.
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Then just leave the parish. I have already been thru the same thing at my own parish. I am tired of the griping and the disrespecting of priests who try to tell the Truth and save the souls of ungrateful parishioners.
 
dang71 said:
sorry that i have not been as quick to respond, but maybe some could look on this as a way to grow in the virtue of PATIENCE 🙂

let me just say, this thread is not about abortion. it is about an attitude displayed by a priest that, IMHO, only drives people further away from the church, rather than bring them back into communion.

should pro-abortion “Catholic” politicians be given communion?
no, they should not.

should anyone in a state of mortal sin receive communion?
no.

is saying “not welcome at this communion rail” the same as saying “not welcome in this church”?
no, but for those who are pro-abortion, they will interpret it as the same.

is the “not welcome” comment appropriate for a priest?
i think not. why not invite them to confession? why not invite them to a private meeting with the priest? why couldn’t he say “if you are pro-abortion, please see me before receiving communion”?

is the “not welcome” comment correct?
no it is not. not welcome means not wanted. Jesus wants EVERYONE to come to Him, and as i have stated in this thread several times, those in a state of sin are still WANTED, but they must first correct their situation.

the whole point of this thread, which very few have actually figured out, is that we win over more sinners by acting out of love and compassion, but still holding on to (and actually living) our true Catholic values. abortion is wrong, yes, but no sinner is won over by some angry Christian telling them they are “not welcome”. we want people to convert/revert, not be driven further away. as someone else in this thread asked, when has anyone ever been converted/reverted by a Christian taking the strong-arm “your not welcome” attitude? Jesus said love your neighbor as yourself, and i ask you, is it loving your neighbor to tell them they are not wanted, and acting in a way that drives them away from the church?
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Dang, I’m still curious as to what changes the priest made when he came in that drove people away? Might help to understand what the climate was when all this came up.
 
In the case of the woman caught in adultery, Our Lord did not cast stones, but lovingly invited her to repentance.
 
RyanML said:
In the case of the woman caught in adultery, Our Lord did not cast stones, but lovingly invited her to repentance.
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Yes but in the case here from everything we can tell, the Priest said those who support abortion were not welcome at the Communion Rail. He did not say from what we have seen, that they were not welcome in the Church. And quite clearly they are **NOT WELCOME **at the Communion Rail, nor should they be. Clearly and succintly stating Church Doctrine I don’t feel is being rude or condescending.

As the OP has not as yet decided to let us know what changes were instituted by the Priest that led to this situation, that is really all we can go on. As to what ever else transpired that led up to this we can only speculate at this point.
 
Paul_Folbrecht said:
LOL.

Go right ahead and ‘rest your case’ of blatantly ignoring Church teaching.
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WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?? Not just with Paul, but with all of us! This thread is ugly and divisive! We believe the same, but we’ve reduced the entire subject to petty fighting, making Protestants look more unified than we do, these last few posts. What has gotten into us? Shouldn’t we be patient and understanding with each other?
 
dang71 said:
and this bible quote you listed only reiterates my point, if you speak to the sinner and through your actions they are driven further away, will you not be held accountable for that?
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You will not be held accountable if you drive the sinner away when admonish him. That is the point of the bible quote.
 
RyanML said:
In the case of the woman caught in adultery, Our Lord did not cast stones, but lovingly invited her to repentance.
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The woman was not proclaiming that what she was doing is OK. Big difference.
 
Dear Dang - You asked about the reading from Ezekiel I posted and thought perhaps the manner in which the message should be delivered. I’m quite sure your pastor had many lectures in seminary about speeches prior to giving his first homily. Why on earth you see it as your job to judge the priest’s ability to speak publically no matter the message tells me you are more interested in the delivery than the message.

When I came into the Church, my first Pastor was a yeller! If you provoked him he would respond very loudly. I will never forget my first experience with the Lenten Parish Penance service. It got very loud and the man spoke out against many, many evils including porn. He didn’t sugar coat anything. Everyone’s ears were ringing. The room was electric! It was awesome. I have never heard anyone else do as he did since, but have heard of others who have delivered similar messages in passionate and zeal-fired ways! Where I live at now I hardly ever hear much evil spoken against. Everything is nicey nice, everyone stays happy and no one gets all fired up about much of anything except perhaps the stale doughnuts at the coffee socials after Mass.

My first Pastor wasn’t liked and being a new Catholic I took a mental note of those who thought his attitude etc. wasn’t appropriate. I heard him bashed on more than one occasion. I loved him for his priesthood and admired his guts and zeal. I wish he were still my Pastor. I also took mental notes on the “politics” and opinions about Church laws of those who I found bashing him. I imagine wherever he is he’s speaking very loudly against today’s evils.

Since you seem perceptive about tone and attiutde of a person’s speech I will tell you exactly what I think is behind your tone and attitude here at the boards. I kinda think you prefer having your ears tickled and suspect that some of the changes this new guy has made aren’t exactly to your liking. I think you came here to bash him and expected to get support for you bashing. You have been asked to give some details about your parish situation, and that hasn’t happened. I can only surmise you are on the side of those who would like to, (probably expect to) get rid of the new guy and get someone they like back! I wonder how they would respond if my old Pastor would show up and further shake the dust out of the corners of the house!

Peace,

Gail
 
palmas85 said:
Hi Dang, welcome back.🙂
Could you tell us what the changes were? And what was so bad about them that they made people leave the Parish?
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You are certainly speaking for me, when you remind Dang of this question. What “changes” did this priest make??

And another question…did those who went to the Bishop about this, go to the priest & try to work it out with him, first?? Thanks in Advance.
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GailMac said:
Dear Dang - You asked about the reading from Ezekiel I posted and thought perhaps the manner in which the message should be delivered. I’m quite sure your pastor had many lectures in seminary about speeches prior to giving his first homily. Why on earth you see it as your job to judge the priest’s ability to speak publically no matter the message tells me you are more interested in the delivery than the message.
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Not necessarily - Homiletics is an optional course, and not available in every Seminary.

I like a good rousing fire and brimstone sermon, too, but it’s possible to deliver such sermons without alienating people, and in such a way as to encourage them to convert. The Calvary Road, if you can find a copy, is a set of exactly the sort of sermons I like - full of fire and brimstone, of the sort that inspires people to conversion, rather than alienating and condemning people.
 
Jacob_Fenton said:
WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?? Not just with Paul, but with all of us! This thread is ugly and divisive! We believe the same, but we’ve reduced the entire subject to petty fighting, making Protestants look more unified than we do, these last few posts. What has gotten into us? Shouldn’t we be patient and understanding with each other?
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Hi Jacob,

You may have a point - allowing the heat of debate to descend to the point of uncharitability is not a good thing.

But, how does one react to someone who is willing to publicly argue that Church teaching should simply be ignored? Who makes completely silly and offensive comments that those who actually pay attention to, believe, and live by the Church’s teachings on the sanctity of life are somehow backwards, or confused? Or that this is merely ‘politics’? These are the things that the King said. Please read his original post.

The Pope has made it clear that those who obstinately declare they are in favor of legal abortion cannot receive Holy Communion. It is a clear teaching - and one that is completely in harmony with Tradition going back all the way to the Didache.

I have, admittedly, little patience for Catholics who publicly flout Church teaching - I’m talking about posters here.
 
The way I see it is that we’ve been way too lax, way too long in the area of abortion. Our country went from a culture of life to one that actually debates whether or not a woman’s right to choose extends to the born alive aborted child–and babies are dying unheld and uncomforted in buckets all over this country.

Barbaric is too mild a description. If this were being done to puppies, PETA would be all over it.

If not us, then who?

The OP has repeated the priest needed to have counseled in private. I maintain, how does the OP know he didn’t? Are we to take the word of persons so damaged by life that they see a child as chattel to be disposed in unspeakable ways, or the priest. If the OP knows these folks personally, what has he done? Maybe he’s the key to having them brought back into communion with the Church.

The priest, by the way, is in an untenable position. If he’s counseled in confession, and they abortionists continue unfettered, what’s he supposed to do? Maybe he’s counseled them repeatedly, yet they continue their anti-life activities and present themselves for Eucharist.

It’s either tell them in no uncertain terms to stay away from the Communion rail or risk an incident at the Communion rail.

I’m not into drama in motion, so I’m good with the former.
 
maggiemay2u said:
The way I see it is that we’ve been way too lax, way too long in the area of abortion. Our country went from a culture of life to one that actually debates whether or not a woman’s right to choose extends to the born alive aborted child–and babies are dying unheld and uncomforted in buckets all over this country.

Barbaric is too mild a description. If this were being done to puppies, PETA would be all over it.

If not us, then who?
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👍 👍 :clapping: :clapping: :blessyou:
 
maggiemay2u said:
The way I see it is that we’ve been way too lax, way too long in the area of abortion. Our country went from a culture of life to one that actually debates whether or not a woman’s right to choose extends to the born alive aborted child–and babies are dying unheld and uncomforted in buckets all over this country.

Barbaric is too mild a description. If this were being done to puppies, PETA would be all over it.

If not us, then who?

The OP has repeated the priest needed to have counseled in private. I maintain, how does the OP know he didn’t? Are we to take the word of persons so damaged by life that they see a child as chattel to be disposed in unspeakable ways, or the priest. If the OP knows these folks personally, what has he done? Maybe he’s the key to having them brought back into communion with the Church.

The priest, by the way, is in an untenable position. If he’s counseled in confession, and they abortionists continue unfettered, what’s he supposed to do? Maybe he’s counseled them repeatedly, yet they continue their anti-life activities and present themselves for Eucharist.

It’s either tell them in no uncertain terms to stay away from the Communion rail or risk an incident at the Communion rail.

I’m not into drama in motion, so I’m good with the former.
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👍 Bulls-eye.
 
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