you believe the pope will answer

[onHisteam]

the following question…

Browsing I saw a poster having the same question I would of the pope…
his question was not answered on the thread

I would ask him to explain, on a basic level, how a person is saved

with the understanding that
saved means our soul is **made clean **and we can reign with God for eternity in heaven

that’s

justification which is that moment in time where God see us just like Jesus Christ, one who has never sinned. (If only we could stay in that state of grace and cleanliness)

to eliminate any misunderstanding, I would ask the pope the question this way…

Is a person saved before or after they experience physical death?
if before, how
if after, how?

looking forward to your replies

God bless

 

[eggsbenedictine]

The same way you believe you are saved, really no different.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Pope has already answered this. The confusion is the self-interpretation of the Scriptures and the lacking clarity resulting from it which is self-evident past the first generation of reformers.

 

[JRKH]

the following question…

Browsing I saw a poster having the same question I would of the pope…
his question was not answered on the thread

with the understanding that
saved means our soul is **made clean **and we can reign with God for eternity in heaven

that’s

justification which is that moment in time where God see us just like Jesus Christ, one who has never sinned. (If only we could stay in that state of grace and cleanliness)

to eliminate any misunderstanding, I would ask the pope the question this way…

Is a person saved before or after they experience physical death?
if before, how
if after, how?

looking forward to your replies

God bless

First of all…I think this is a good question…One that I am sure the pope would be more than willing to address. One thing though…If one is looking for a short answer…they are unlikely to get it. Not if they are truly looking for understanding.
Like “eggs” says above - the answer would be - very much in the same way that you (as a pentecostal) believe.
The Holy Father, depending on how much time he has, would probably provide you with answers that will point you to some very good reading…Scripture, the Catechism, the Constitutions of the Church etc.

Of course I cannot speak for the pope nor am I an apologist…however, I can offer my perspective…for what it’s worth…You ask
Is a person saved before or after they experience physical death?
if before, how
if after, how?
Well - in relation to the event of one’s death…they are saved AT death. After death judgement occurs and the time to repent has passed. Before death, one still has the opportunity to fall from grace and lose their salvation.

This then brings us to the matter of terms as you have defined them…
with the understanding that
saved means our soul is **made clean **and we can reign with God for eternity in heaven

justification which is that moment in time where God see us just like Jesus Christ, one who has never sinned. (If only we could stay in that state of grace and cleanliness)
Both of these things occur at Baptism when we are washed clean of sin and brought into the Church - God’s Family.
Your mentioning of “staying clean” is a good point and one addressed through repentance and reconciliation for when we fall from grace, we have a loving father and a strong advocate in Christ ready and willing to welcome us back. St Paul speaks of perseverance…and has harsh words for those who want to claim to be Christian while continuing in sin…St John likewise in his 1st letter speaks repeatedly about those who claim to know Christ…but do not act properly…
These things play strongly on the matter of “justification”…for at baptism we are indeed fully justified…but if we do not continue in His ways…things covered by Paul and by John…can we remain justified? Put another way - can we lose our justification? It seems that we can.

I think that if you were to get into this matter with the pope - and had adequate time to discuss it with him you might very well leave the audience ready to become Catholic…

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

The Pope has already answered this. The confusion is the self-interpretation of the Scriptures and the lacking clarity resulting from it which is self-evident past the first generation of reformers.

Amen - One of the things that has always disturbed me about the leaders of the reformation was the fact that they each chose to reject the other instead of coming together in council (as the bible teaches) to resolve their differences.
This failure has indeed led to much confusion.

Peace
James

 

[mountee]

Thank you for this interesting question and thanks to the replies I have again learned something new about my faith on this forum.

 

[MaeganFlinchum1]

Thank you for this interesting question and thanks to the replies I have again learned something new about my faith on this forum.

I have too!

 

[Ad_Orientem]

onHisteam,

You may be interested in the following:

Grace and Justification (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

Decree on Justification (Council of Trent)

 

[StevenFrancis]

Is a person saved before or after they experience physical death?
if before, how
if after, how?

Well, I’m certainly not the pope. But I’ll give it a whirl.

Is a person saved before or after they experience physical death?

• Before

if before, how

• Baptism (for cleansing of original sin); Eucharist (for ongoing communion with Jesus Christ, and conversion of heart); Reconciliation, (for cleansing of sins from baptism to death); Anointing of the Sick (for spiritual, and sometimes even physical healing - or the sacramental grace offered at the moment of death); Vocation (for right living as a Christian - being on the correct path for your individual relationship with God); These are manners by which God bestows grace upon the Christian who has sought Him through Jesus Christ, and has ordered their lives to Christian living by the grace of God. Recognizing when they have fallen short, (which ideally is less and less all the time), and asking for forgiveness, penance and a clean heart from God through the sacraments.

if after, how? - After, there is no longer time. We will be outside of time, and the decisions we have made while within time will have become eternal. So it is too late for amendment. It is important to die in a state of grace, and friendship with God through Jesus Christ. So N/A to this one.

Let’s take a little walk through scripture:
We have original sin -
Gen 2:15 - 17
Gen 3:8 - 19
Isa 43:27
Rom 5:12 - 19
1 Cor 15:21 - 22
Ephes 2:1-4

Cleansed by one baptism, which is necessary, and washes away original sin:
Isa 55:10 - 11
Mat 28:18-20; 19:13-15
John 3:3-5, and 22
Mark 16:15-16
Luke 18:15-17
Acts 2:37-41; 16:15; 16:27-33; 22:16;
Rom 6:2-4
1 Cor 6:11; 1:16; 15:21-22
Col 2:11-14
Titus 3:3-7
Heb 10:21-22
1 Pet 3:18-21

Then we have the sacrament of Reconciliation, where we seek sacramental grace when we fall during our lifetimes by examining our conscience, confessing our sins in true sorrow, and doing penance in repentance, and thereby turning away from sin.

Mat 9:1-8; 18:18-19; 10:40
Mark 2:5-12
Luk 10:16; 24:45-49
John 20:22-23
2 Cor 5:18-20
Acts 19:18-20
1John 1:6-10
James 5:14-16

We are also given grace through Jesus Christ by communion with Him through the Holy Eucharist, as He left for us to do. The strength and grace provided by the Eucharist, gives us the strength to live Christian lives on a day to day basis, so that we find ourselves in need of reconciliation less often. I can give personal witness to this fact. God converts, or “changes” us. He does me, anyway, on an ongoing bases through this most high sacrament. To the point and degree that those who do not discern the real presence and avail themselves of this sacrament have “no life within you”. (That is both terestial and eternal).
Ex 12:1-13; 12:21-28
John 1:28 - 30
1 Cor 11:17 and following
1 John 5:16
Mat 26:1-2 and 26-28
Mark 14:22-25
Luk22:14-20
John 6:22-69
1 Cor 5:7; 10:16; 11:23-29

With the aid of the sacraments, which Jesus instituted as a means of grace during our lifetimes, we are “saved”. If we seek and follow Jesus, and we have heard Him call our name (conversion). Salvation is by the grace of God, as are all good things.
Eph 2:8-9
Rom 2:4-13; 5:2; 8:25; 11:22-23
Mat 7:21-23; 19:16-17; 24:13; 25:34-36;
Luke 6:27-36; and 46-49
1 Cor 9:27
Gal 5:1-6
Eph 2:8-10
Philipp 2:12-13
Heb 10:24 -29
James 1:22-25; 2:14-26
2 Pet 2:20-21
1 John 3:7 and 5:3

We receive grace from God. It can be infused, (poured into the soul, or filled by)
Acts 2:17-18
Acts 4:31; 6:8; 10:45; 11:24
Rom 5:5
Eph 5:18
Titus 3:5-7

It comes to us by our faith in Christ, and obedience to Him
Mat 5:20; 7:21-23; 18:5-9
Rom 2:13

But…Grace can be lost through serious sin
Rom 11:21 -22
Heb 10:26-31
2 Pet 2:20-22

Even to the point of breaking our relationship with God, (our choice, not His), and choosing to do evil works, leading to eternal death/hell, (even this can be repaired, while we still live on earth in physical life, so long as we don’t die in this state. See reconciliation and eucharist above)
Philipp 2:12-16; 3:7-16
Mat 19:16-21; 25:31-46
Rom 2:1-13; 3:19-31; 11:17-23
Rom 13:2
1 Cor 3:10-15; 6:9-11; 9:24-27; 10:6-13; 13:1-3 & 13; 15:1-2
2 Cor 5:9-10
Gal 5:13-21; 6:6-10; Eph 2:8-10
1 Tim 5:3-8
Heb 10:19-31
James 2:14-26
2 Pet 1:1-11
1 John 5:10; 2:1-11; 3:7-17; 5:1-5
Rev 2:23; 22:12-15

So, salvation belongs to Jews and Christian, by the grace of God, and is ours, once bestowed, so long as we keep the commandments, pick up our cross daily, follow Jesus, and turn to Him with honest sorrow when we stumble and fall, do our penance, and turn away from sin, and the near occasion of sin. He instituted sacraments to assist on our road to eternal life with Him, and if we are in communion or friendship with Him, He offers us eternal reward. We DO have free will, however. We can deny the gift of His grace. We can choose to do bad, and even deaden and numb ourselves to the point where no longer feel remorseful, or sorrowful when we sin. We can become cold and dead inside. Filled with hatred and darkness. Calling good evil, and evil good. If we die in such a state, we have chosen an eternity away from Him. We have proved through our living, that are preferences lie with the fallen angels and with Satan, and having made that choice, God sadly allows us our free will, and lets us do just that. To spend eternity without God. A person in such a state doesn’t WANT eternal life with God. They are making a choice of preferring evil. We choose hell. Even hell is a grace of God for those who would be tortured by eternal life in the light of God.

Scripture citations from “Where is that in the Bible” by Patrick Madrid

May the Lord be with you always,

Steven

 

[onHisteam]

Thank you all for your response. From your answers, if I were to ask the pope
“Is a person saved before or after they experience physical death?”,
I better prepare myself for a long conversation.

First of all…I think this is a good question … If one is looking for a short answer…they are unlikely to get it. Not if they are truly looking for understanding.
The Holy Father, will point you to some very good reading
…Scripture, the Catechism, the Constitutions of the Church etc.

probably right James

All of you posted good responses based on what you believe to be true
to save space I extracted the main points we completely agree on

Thank you for this interesting question … I have again learned something new

I have too!

I have learned something too

The confusion is the self-interpretation of the Scriptures and the lacking clarity resulting from it which is self-evident past the first generation of reformers.

So true Gary, I agree there is confusion among Christians

One of the things that has always disturbed me about the leaders of the reformation was the fact that they each chose to reject the other instead of coming together in council (as the bible teaches) to resolve their differences. This failure has indeed led to much confusion. Peace James

If we all can come together and agree. I share your passion and heart James that we see the day when the world knows the absolute truth

the simplest answer was by eggsbenedictine,

The same way you believe you are saved,
really no different.

I hope you are right eggsbenedictine

let’s get to the heart of the matter

the answer would be - very much in the same way that you (as a pentecostal) believe. however, I can offer my perspective…for what it’s worth…

a lot, appreciate your answer

After death judgement occurs and the time to repent has passed.

Amen

Before death, one still has the opportunity to fall from grace and lose their salvation.

Amen

Your mentioning of “staying clean” is a good point

James, I agree with everything you said here…

can we lose our justification? It seems that we can.

for when we fall from grace, we have a loving father and a strong advocate in Christ ready and willing to welcome us back.

addressed through repentance and reconciliation

absolutely

• Before
  God bestows grace upon the Christian who has sought Him through Jesus Christ,
  and has ordered their lives to Christian living by the grace of God. Recognizing when they have fallen short, (which ideally is less and less all the time), and asking for forgiveness, penance and a **clean heart **from God

thereby returning to a state of grace, yes??

After (death), there is no longer time. the decisions we have made while within time will have become eternal.
So it is too late for amendment. It is important to die in a state of grace**, and friendship with God through Jesus Christ.

Right on, Amen

And if we do not die in the state of grace? I believe we will be damned, yes?

onHisteam, You may be interested in the following:

thank you. I especially like this one…

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy.** Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the *gift ***of eternal life

a gift of eternal life? a gift to me is something you reject or accept
I accept the fact that Jesus died for my sins and when I fall short as Steven said, I trust God He will forgive me when I ask for forgiveness, restablishing my soul to a state of grace at that moment in time. However, at some point in the future I might fall from grace and then would need to confess again. Am I right?

 

[benjohnson]

Amen - One of the things that has always disturbed me about the leaders of the reformation was the fact that they each chose to reject the other instead of coming together in council (as the bible teaches) to resolve their differences.
This failure has indeed led to much confusion.

Peace
James

From the Lutheran standpoint, any meaningful council is pretty much impossible with those that deny the real presence. Historically, we’ve been content to engage such churches, in a position of remonstration. My own church fled to America rather than give up our doctrine - it was that or be put to death.

Tellingly, Luther did say: “Before I would drink mere wine with the Enthusiasts, I would rather have pure blood with the Pope”

 

[JRKH]

From the Lutheran standpoint, any meaningful council is pretty much impossible with those that deny the real presence. Historically, we’ve been content to engage such churches, in a position of remonstration. My own church fled to America rather than give up our doctrine - it was that or be put to death.

Tellingly, Luther did say: “Before I would drink mere wine with the Enthusiasts, I would rather have pure blood with the Pope”

Interestingly - I would think that the Judaizers could have said something similar to and about the Gentile converts in Acts…That having any meaningful council is pretty much impossible with those who deny circumcision and the Law.
Yet these groups - as opposed and entrenched as they were (as evidenced by Paul not being able to resolve the matter himself at Antioch) were willing to come together in council and place the matter before the elders of the Church…

I do not deny the difficulty - even impossibility - of such a council among the original reformers…but that impossibility (IMHO) actually stems from two things. First - the fundamental rejection of ekklesial authority (which is what the split from Rome amounted to) in favor of “Sola Scriptura” and second is the rejection of the Biblical model of “testing the spirits” in council.
This second aspect has always struck me as the worse of the two…for it speaks more clearly of pride…and it truly undercuts their own assertion of the primacy of Scripture as source and guide

If they had followed their own assertions re: Sola Scriptura, they would have come together in some sort of council (or councils) and worked out their differences in order to fulfill the prayer of Christ and the exhortations of the Apostles for unity.
Then - instead of having many conflicting “Bible Churches” there would have been only a couple…and perhaps by now the schism between Rome and the Reformers would have been healed.

OF course the above ignores the various political aspects involved with that period in history…but I’m already too far off topic…So I should really shut up now…

I don’t mean the above as an attack on you Ben…it’s just how I have come to see this matter over time.

Peace
James

 

[ffg]

I see this question as one that has already been answered for us.

Though we don’t do it well, if we did what Jesus said to do, isn’t that our answer?

1 Believe in Him. Where there is doubt or question in who this man claimed to be, see miracles performed to squish doubt.

2 Trust that what he says has purpose and meaning straight up. If He said “make me your personnal savior, but way of verbally pronouncing it to your congregation, then live free in knowing you said this once.” I’d be the first in line. But I don’t see where he said to do this, or that this is necessary. I do see sacraments being instituted, where we do something similar, but in action, say through baptism. (where God acts in response to our action and delivers grace)

3 Try our best to do that which was taught and follow those put in charge of keeping the information the same today as it was when first delivered. Maybe Jesus started a place to protect and keep this information. A place promised to exist until the world ends, or discounting for future space travel by the clever creations of God, ‘until the end of time’.

 

[benjohnson]

Interestingly - I would think that the Judaizers could have said something similar to and about the Gentile converts in Acts…

Indeed thank God for their proclamation of the Gospel indeed!

Hopefully we picky Lutherans have no problem with proclaiming the word ourselves, but we won’t get into a situation where the underlying assumption is that we would be compromising in some measure. Sadly, we sort have been proven correct in that Lutheran bodies that have entered such situations have mostly come away diminished in their proclamation of the Gospel - so the idea that the the Reformers and Rome would be reconciled by now if we were more ecumenical is a tempting prospect, but probably not likely.

I have to admit that we can be an odd lot

And… perhaps we should trust the Holy Spirit to build us up in Christ whenever we encounter other churches, but sadly, it doesn’t seem to have happened in these modern times.

 

[EIF5A]

If He said “make me your personnal savior, but way of verbally pronouncing it to your congregation, then live free in knowing you said this once.”

This is a common misconception, and frankly, I think it does a disservice to anything beneficial to continue this.

No Protestant believes an incantation saves you.

Just as Catholics get annoyed when Protestants think they worship Mary, Protestants get annoyed when words meant to reflect genuine contrition and change is reduced to a trite phrase.

You do not judge the hearts of people. You have no idea what is going on in their hearts. You have no idea if the Holy Spirit is or is not present within a person.

 

[ffg]

This is a common misconception, and frankly, I think it does a disservice to anything beneficial to continue this.

No Protestant believes an incantation saves you.

Just as Catholics get annoyed when Protestants think they worship Mary, Protestants get annoyed when words meant to reflect genuine contrition and change is reduced to a trite phrase.

You do not judge the hearts of people. You have no idea what is going on in their hearts. You have no idea if the Holy Spirit is or is not present within a person.

Ok, does drink soda every day all day work for you? I don’t see that anywhere either.

Parsing a message is something some people are very good at, rather than looking at the whole context.

The point isn’t in what one group does or does not do, it’s in what Jesus said to do.

If he said it, it’s something to try and do, if he said not to do it, it’s something to try and not do.

The question was about learning what the pope thinks about salvation. My point was that we already have the answer from Jesus!

 

[onHisteam]

If they had followed their own assertions re: Sola Scriptura,
they **would have come together **in some sort of council (or councils) and worked out their differences in order to fulfill the prayer of Christ and the exhortations of the Apostles for unity.
Then - instead of having many conflicting “Bible Churches” there would have been only a couple…and perhaps by now the schism between Rome and the Reformers would have been healed.

That would be nice wouldn’t it?

but I’m already too far off topic…So I should really shut up now… Peace James

I am so glad you did not shut up Paul because you are addressing the heart of the issue as to why their is no unity among the Christian churches.

Since I did not get and answer to my questions below…

Posted by StevenFrancis

and asking for forgiveness, penance and a clean heart from God

thereby returning to a state of grace, yes??

Posted by StevenFrancis

After (death), there is no longer time. the decisions we have made while within time will have become eternal.
So it is too late for amendment. It is important to die in a state of grace, and friendship with God through Jesus Christ.

Right on, Amen
And if we do not die in the state of grace? I believe we will be damned, yes?

Posted by Ad Orientem

onHisteam, You may be interested in the following:

thank you. I especially like this one…

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life

a gift of eternal life? a gift to me is something you reject or accept
I accept the fact that Jesus died for my sins and when I fall short as Steven said, I trust God He will forgive me when I ask for forgiveness, restablishing my soul to a state of grace at that moment in time. However, at some point in the future I might fall from grace and then would need to confess again
Am I right?

I am beginning to wonder if at all you can give me a definitive answer.
Let me ask a question in another way.

As far as you are concerned, if you are on your death bed, taking your last breaths, and a priest just ministered your last rights, is it a true statement to say there is no way to know for sure that after you die and wake up on the other side of eternity, you will come face to face with Almight God forever??

You will die always hoping and not an assurance of salvation…?? is that true??

 

[EIF5A]

Ok, does drink soda every day all day work for you? I don’t see that anywhere either.

Parsing a message is something some people are very good at, rather than looking at the whole context.

The point isn’t in what one group does or does not do, it’s in what Jesus said to do.

If he said it, it’s something to try and do, if he said not to do it, it’s something to try and not do.

The question was about learning what the pope thinks about salvation. My point was that we already have the answer from Jesus!

It was a perpetuation of a misconception. Protestants do not believe the words of “the sinner’s prayer” saves you. It is a turning away from sin, not salvation.

(I wasn’t responding to the pope – just a particular aggravating reduction contained in a sentiment I read far too often among Catholics.)

 

[rinnie]

the following question…

Browsing I saw a poster having the same question I would of the pope…
his question was not answered on the thread

with the understanding that
saved means our soul is **made clean **and we can reign with God for eternity in heaven

that’s

justification which is that moment in time where God see us just like Jesus Christ, one who has never sinned. (If only we could stay in that state of grace and cleanliness)

to eliminate any misunderstanding, I would ask the pope the question this way…

Is a person saved before or after they experience physical death?
if before, how
if after, how?

looking forward to your replies

God bless

Well to begin with a Person is saved at the moment of Baptism. A person who dies in a state of grace must be in a state of grace at their death or they cannot be saved afterwards.

A person is out of a state of grace after baptism when they had actual mortal sin. They are out of mortal sin when they repent confess that sin and love Christ more then the sin.

That is why Christ gave a Priest the power of the Holy Spirit to forgive mortal sin and cleanse is in his name.

If a person refuses to repent and forgo the sin and choose the Sin over God they die in mortal sin and will not see heaven.

 

[rinnie]

That would be nice wouldn’t it?
I am so glad you did not shut up Paul because you are addressing the heart of the issue as to why their is no unity among the Christian churches.

Since I did not get and answer to my questions below…

Posted by StevenFrancis

thereby returning to a state of grace, yes??

Posted by StevenFrancis

Right on, Amen
And if we do not die in the state of grace? I believe we will be damned, yes?

Posted by Ad Orientem

There is no way of answering that question. It is not until you meet Christ on the last day of Judgement to know if you are free from sin or not.

Even St Paul said he would never judge himself for he knows not the mind of Christ or what judgement lays upon him. He said himself he can only pray that he is made righteous in the eyes of God.

So to make a long story short no one can judge themself or others on God will make the call on his terms. And as we all know his thinking is not like ours. So we must wait for him to reveal to us our fate.

But as long as you love and do your best to serve God and others you can be sure he is a merciful God and rely on that mercy. Thats the only hope you have. Truly the only hope we all have.

thank you. I especially like this one…

a gift of eternal life? a gift to me is something you reject or accept
I accept the fact that Jesus died for my sins and when I fall short as Steven said, I trust God He will forgive me when I ask for forgiveness, restablishing my soul to a state of grace at that moment in time. However, at some point in the future I might fall from grace and then would need to confess again
Am I right?

I am beginning to wonder if at all you can give me a definitive answer.
Let me ask a question in another way.

As far as you are concerned, if you are on your death bed, taking your last breaths, and a priest just ministered your last rights, is it a true statement to say there is no way to know for sure that after you die and wake up on the other side of eternity, you will come face to face with Almight God forever??

You will die always hoping and not an assurance of salvation…?? is that true??