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Thomas_White
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I guess I am even more amazed there is the need to defend the Supreme Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church on the CS forum.
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You can’t understand Pope Francis without Juan Perón — and Evita
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Bubba_Switzler
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I’m not suggesting Pope Francis is a Bad Pope of the medieval variety. To my knowledge he is not holding orgies or selling indulgences. I would, though, challenge the notion that a pope can do no wrong. We know otherwise from history.I guess I am even more amazed there is the need to defend the Supreme Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church on the CS forum.
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Aletheian
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It is just as absurd to pretend that Peronism is a well-defined ideology when it fact it has many variations; for instance, whereas Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner is patently a left-wing populist, Carlos Menem was a right-wing capitalist to the core. Moreover Pope Francis is chiefly aligned with the core tenets of Juan Peron’s original philosophy, namely concern for the poor, workers’ rights, and free healthcare, not with the populism and corruption that has plagued Argentina; indeed, he was one of the fiercest critics of the Kirchners back when he was the Archbishop of Buenos Aires.But a growing body of research is revealing to the world the close alignment of Pope Francis with this ideology called “Peronism” and it is increasingly absurd to pretend otherwise.
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edwest2
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The global Depression was felt from Europe to the US and South America. Note that it was not politics, per se, that triggered this but those in control of the money supply. I saw a newspaper photo and a caption explaining that a shipment of gold bars had just arrived in England from the US. The reason? Those in possession of the gold could sell it for more money there - during the Great Depression.Except that Argentina’s decline began in the 1930s, way before Peronism appeared.
From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Argentina
Argentina possesses definite comparative advantages in agriculture, as the country is endowed with a vast amount of highly fertile land.[2] Between 1860 and 1930, exploitation of the rich land of the pampas strongly pushed economic growth.[3] During the first three decades of the 20th century, Argentina outgrew Canada and Australia in population, total income, and per capita income.[3] By 1913, Argentina was the world’s 10th wealthiest nation per capita.[4]
Beginning in the 1930s, however, the Argentine economy deteriorated notably.[3] The single most important factor in this decline has been political instability since 1930, when a military junta took power, ending seven decades of civilian constitutional government.[5] In macroeconomic terms, Argentina was one of the most stable and conservative countries until the Great Depression, after which it turned into one of the most unstable.[6] Successive governments from the 1930s to the 1970s pursued a strategy of import substitution to achieve industrial self-sufficiency, but the government’s encouragement of industrial growth diverted investment from agricultural production, which fell dramatically.[7]
There are few good histories about Argentina in English. There are no histories about Argentina’s military during World War II and its trade with Germany during the War. And little about the immigration of many German technical specialists and scientists after the war. Argentina had a strong military and wanted to modernize but was under pressure by certain elements in the United States who, apparently, did not want to see a new power base develop there.
Ed
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Bubba_Switzler
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Fair enough, but these articles suggest that Pope Francis has gone well beyond mere “concern for the poor” and I think you gloss to lightly over the question of how concerned someone like Juan Peron really was for the poor.It is just as absurd to pretend that Peronism is a well-defined ideology when it fact it has many variations; for instance, whereas Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner is patently a left-wing populist, Carlos Menem was a right-wing capitalist to the core. Moreover Pope Francis is chiefly aligned with the core tenets of Juan Peron’s original philosophy, namely concern for the poor, workers’ rights, and free healthcare, not with the populism and corruption that has plagued Argentina; indeed, he was one of the fiercest critics of the Kirchners back when he was the Archbishop of Buenos Aires.
As I noted previously, while Peronism was designed to appeal to Catholics, Juan Peron was principally inspired by Benito Mussolini and his fascist vision of society. Peron was not merely a populist nor is corruption the worst problem in places like Argentina. No amount of “good government” can make Peronism work.
Calling Carlos Menem a capitalist is dubious at best. Perhaps relative to what otherwise is found in Argentina but certainly not by Anglo-American standards.
As for Pope Francis’ criticism of the Kirchners, this is not the “get out of jail free” card that so many assume. It is a typically misleading line of argument. Factions of movements are often vehemently, sometimes violently, at odds: Bolsheviks vs. Mensheviks, Sunni vs. Shiite, National Socialism vs. Communism. Pope Francis might correctly be placed within the milieu of Peronism and, yet, disagree vehemently with others in that same milieu on one or more issues.
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Thomas_White
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Sorry, but this argument proves nothing: Factions of movements are often vehemently, sometimes violently, at odds, and Peronism is such a movement. Pope Francis might correctly be placed in the milieu of Peronism. Therefore, he is placed in Peronism, a movement that is often vehemently, sometimes violently, at odds.As for Pope Francis’ criticism of the Kirchners, this is not the “get out of jail free” card that so many assume. It is a typically misleading line of argument. Factions of movements are often vehemently, sometimes violently, at odds: Bolsheviks vs. Mensheviks, Sunni vs. Shiite, National Socialism vs. Communism. Pope Francis might correctly be placed within the milieu of Peronism and, yet, disagree vehemently with others in that same milieu on one or more issues.
Not by that argument is he so placed.
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Bubba_Switzler
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Not by that argument have the articles cited in this thread so placed him.Sorry, but this argument proves nothing: Factions of movements are often vehemently, sometimes violently, at odds, and Peronism is such a movement. Pope Francis might correctly be placed in the milieu of Peronism. Therefore, he is placed in Peronism, a movement that is often vehemently, sometimes violently, at odds.
Not by that argument is he so placed.
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Bubba_Switzler
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money.cnn.com/2015/09/21/news/economy/pope-francis-capitalism/In the chapter on economics, Francis argued that while it can be good for development, capitalism lacks morals and promotes selfish behavior.
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