You can't have it both ways.

[Dokimas]

I know because of Sacred Tradition.

And you know it too because of Sacred Tradition.

Which is why it’s so puzzling that non-Catholics disparage ST.

How do you know you can trust ST?

I never read ST so it didn’t tell me Titus was inspired.

 

[PRmerger]

Salvation: The Grace of God that grants us repentence - faith in Jesus as the Son of God and the cross and resurrection of Jesus here on earth in completing the Will of the Father - all being the gift of God and not by our own works.
Eph 2:8-9; Rom 10:9-13; among many other places.

All Scripture, the Word of God, is necessary for we live by every Word that proceeds from the Mouth of God.

Exactly!

And having a marriage blessed by God? Is that necessary for salvation? Or can you be saved if you are not married by a minister? And how do you know?

 

[PRmerger]

How do you know you can trust ST?

It’s from the same source as Sacred Scripture–Jesus himself.

I never read ST so it didn’t tell me Titus was inspired.

It most surely did!

You cannot know that Titus is inspired without ST telling you so.

 

[joe370]

Sorry I missed that question. It’s an easy one too.

No one. No one is infallible except God.

Not even me. LOL…I know of no one in the CC that claims to be infallible. However, every church leadership that claims to teach truth as opposed to error, regarding faith and morals, is claiming to teach infallibly.

Your answer is:** No one** in this divisive world of Christianity, was entrusted with the God given authority, via the guidance of the holy spirit, to interpret scripture infallibly?

There is absolutely no way to know, with certainty, the truths found in the infallible bible, that have more than one supposed infallible interpretation, eg the Eucharist?

So basically, it is your belief that God left us with a collection of inspired, infallible books with know means to infallibly interpret them via the perpetual guidance of the HS?

 

[guanophore]

Have you ever heard of fellowship?

The purpose of CAF is not fellowship, but yes, I see a strong need for fellowship.

You see no benefit in discussing each others applications?

We see no “applications” the way you use the word at all. From our point of view, your “applications” constitute a different gospel from the one that was passed on to us from our Apostles.

 

[guanophore]

The Trinity concept is in the Holy Bible as I have already pointed out.

You see it there because you have accepted the doctrine through Sacred Tradition. Those who do not receive it, see something else.

**The Holy Bible absolutely shows through many verses the 2 natures of Jesus - hypostatic union:**

Yes, but it shows through to you because you have already accepted the doctrine as it comes through the Sacred Tradition. Those who do not accept the Sacred Tradition cannot see it “showing through”.

The Nicene Creed - Bible based:
prayerfoundation.org/nicene_creed_scripture_basis.htm

No, the Nicene Creed is not “bible based”, any more than the Church, or the table of contents to the bible are. The Nicene Creed was written at least 50 years before the canon of scripture was closed. It is also a product of Sacred Tradition.

Sola Scriptura is not a doctrine but a practice. It is FOUND in Scripture by way of Jesus’ example. Have you never noticed that Jesus always referenced Scripture? To explain who HE was, settle disputes.

Of course Jesus referenced Scripture. He was role modeling, and teaching. However, “all authority” is not in Scriputre, but in His Person. He gave this authority to His Apostles, who also then used scripture to arbitrate and guide the Church.

**John 12**

48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

This is a reference to the spoken word, not the written word. It clearly states “the word that I have SPOKEN”. Not all of this Word was committed to writing.

What you are sayng is that God is too weak or disinterested to preserve His Word in the Church, where He placed it.

 

[guanophore]

For the Catholic I would say it is important to show you that some of the Catholic Doctrines are truly Scriture based. In fact I think, might be wrong here but all the doctrines about Jesus are Scripture based.

No, schaick. NONE of the Catholic doctrines are “scripture based”. The church founded by Christ is not a “bible based church”. The Catholic doctrines were delivered whole and entire by Christ to the Church before a word of the NT was ever written. On the contrary, the Scriptures REFLECT the Teachings of Jesus that were committed once for all to the saints

A Catholic would know this better then me but it is some of the things about the Catholic heirachy, Pope and Mary that are Tradition and not Scripture based.

We see all these doctrines reflected in the scripture, just as you see the Trinity and the hypostatic union there. We see them because we received the faith, and when we read the Scripture, we read it through the lens of those who wrote it. You read it a little differently because you are wearing the lenses handed down by the Reformers.

For mere Christians- pure joy of the experience, again fellowship, never stop learning- there are those different applications of Scripture - not just Church celebrations but different ways of applying Scripture in our lives and those fuller meanings that can come from Bible verses.

Yes, but one would expect that you would seek these things from other “bible christians”, rather than CAF, since we reject the premise by which you interpret.

The need for a “list” of Books was seen up after the death of the eyewitnesses and their students to guard against false teachings.

Yes. This “list” along with all the creeds and decisions of the infallible councils, were all to guard against heresy. Heresy was defined as those beliefs and practices that depart from the Apostolic Teaching which was preserved in Sacred Tradition.

The church simply recognized which books were already known as Scripture. The truth made it’s own way by widespread usage of the early Church Fathers.

There were over 400 written works at the time, all claiming to be Scripture. Yes, God led the Church to choose those which reflect the faith that was passed down from the Apostles. This is why there are no contradictions between Catholic Teaching and the Scripture. Both come from the same Source.

 

[gtrenewed]

Did you see the little winky icon after my comment?

Cute, that makes everything ok. Look you can’t have it both ways - answered prayer, is it from God or man? I should thank God for the answer and I should thank you for offering up a prayer on my behalf.

While, you probably just meant this as a cute add on to your posts; perhaps you are bucking for the patron saint of parking spots

Take my comment for what it is worth - food for thought. God Bless.

 

[PRmerger]

Cute, that makes everything ok. Look you can’t have it both ways - answered prayer, is it from God or man? I should thank God for the answer and I should thank you for offering up a prayer on my behalf.

Always give the glory to God. Always. That’s the Catholic way!
(see the winky again, gtre?)

 

[gtrenewed]

Exactly!

And having a marriage blessed by God? Is that necessary for salvation? Or can you be saved if you are not married by a minister? And how do you know?

Marriage is an ancient ceremony. It isn’t a question of salvation for the Christain. We can celebrate it many different ways as long as it is by faith since Scripture tells us that what is not done by faith is sin. For secular reasons there needs to be a paper trail.

“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh” Eph 5:31. How they are joined depends largely on your family history; however, it is by consummation and it is not a matter of salvation. If a man and a woman stand before God alone, in faith, as Christians, then it is blessed by God.

 

[gtrenewed]

Always give the glory to God. Always. That’s the Catholic way!
(see the winky again, gtre?)

Great, we agree, so I can assume you are going to change your wording to reflect that!

 

[gtrenewed]

“For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law will be justified”. Romans 2:13

The context of this passage is that there is no one that can be saved by the works of the law because no one can be a doer 100% of the time. We are saved by faith in Jesus who was perfect in the law. Christians are covered by Jesus and His works, not by our own works.

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” Titus 1:16

Are you suggesting that any professing Christian that is non-RC is abominable? This goes beyond the CCC. This Scripture speaks of those who are pure and those who are not pure. The pure are those who are saved by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus. The unpure, those not in Jesus, can talk about God but unless they profess faith in Jesus all their works for goodness are meaningless.

“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation” 2 Peter 1:20

Again, you take this verse out of context. The context is about the prophesies of the Messiah and how Jesus fulfilled those prophecies and how we can be certain that the apostles did not cleverly invent these prophecies but they were divinely inspired.

And this is also true of the new testament.

 

[gtrenewed]

*A while ago now, you posted, in your earlier post here (#367), the post that I was responding to, that, *“The trust that God included **all ****necessary direction in scripture”

*So, all we need to do is get a Bible (I already have several) and read it and everything else will be taken care of…right? That sounds easy to me. If that’s not what you meant here, then please explain yourself? *

That is quite a leap, almost as big as saying because someone is RC they have the fullness. Jesus said the Jews heard the Word of God but because they did not mix it with faith it was of no avail to them. If you think the journey is easy, you missed the Spirit in Scripture; however, since salvation is based on the works of Jesus and not my own, I don’t have that burden to carry.

What do you me by* “The journey is difficult enough without worrying about my salvation.”* You do know that we Catholics are “comforted by the hope of Salvation”…right?

There is a difference between dictionary hope and biblical hope. Dictionary hope expresses a desire without the surety that hope will be fulfilled. Biblical hope expresses our desire of salvation and the surety that it is fulfilled in Jesus and the grace of God made the way to include me.

The RC’s that I have known show no comfort in salvation for much depended on how good they have been and that God would not condemn them because they are a basically good person. They missed that Jesus has done the works necessary for salvation and we are born again into Jesus and His works, not our own.

Knowing that I am saved motivates me to good works and to grow and mature in the Spirit. If my goodness dictates my salvation then I am lost.

Ah… the Catholic Epistle of St. James…I like the book James, many verses from James’ are used to support Catholic arguments. Did you know that Martin Luther referred to the book of James as the “Book of Straw” and that he wanted to exclude it from the Bible?

I have seen many verses out of context on this forum by RC’s.
Don’t know about your reference to Martin Luther, I’ll have to research it.

Where did you derive your definition of scripture here. Is this something that you did all by yourself, using personal interpretation, or is it possible that your belief here, may have been influenced by someone else, if you were influence by someone else, then obviously we need more than the Bible?

That is all we need but typically there was a preacher, as Scripture says, who presented Scripture to us.

You mentioned “fellowship” in another post. Why be involved in the act of “fellowship” if it’s not necessary for Salvation?

Scripture exhorts us to have fellowship.

Wouldn’t the acts of becoming Married, Baptized, asking for forgiveness, praying, reciting the “Born-Again” Sinner’s Prayer and so on… be acts of “Good Works”?

You got a mixed bag here which is typical of RC’s misunderstandings. The sinners prayer is not a work but a profession. The others are acts of obedience to the Word.

Aren’t “Good Works”, doing those things that are pleasing to God.
Are you somehow, implying that it isn’t necessary to those things, which are pleasing to God, for Salvation?

This highlights your misunderstanding of salvation. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Salvation through grace, by faith, not by works. We please God when we believe the Gospel. It is faith in Jesus alone. Not Jesus + something else. This begins our discleship journey but without this foundation in the kingdom the journey cannot begin and any works are useless. Salvation is the foundation.

Are you implying that we don’t have to go through, for example, a marriage ceremony, to live like husband and wife, or that we don’t have to be Baptized to obtain Salvation?

A ceremony can be a man, a woman before God alone but typically it is shared with family, friends, and fellow Christians.
Again, salvation is faith in Jesus alone, not Jesus + something. Now once the foundation of salvation in Jesus is laid, we will follow Scripture out of obedience, like a believers baptism. Should I die before accomplishing certain acts my salvation is assured and I am with Jesus.

 

[joe370]

Hey Gtrenewed, how ya doin…

Is it your belief that Jesus left the world with His established church and that His church (which ever church that is) - has been preserved, by the Holy Spirit from teaching error, regarding faith and morals only? Or, are you a sola scriptura advocate, believing that the Christians only authority, and source of error free truth, doctrinally speaking, is the holy bible via individual interpretation? In other words, all anyone has to do, regardless of denomination, (if they want access to the infallible truths of God) - is open their bible and start reading and interpreting as the holy spirit moves them? As a former non-Catholic this was a hard pill to swallow; I tried to embrace the ideological view, but I just couldn’t get passed the obvious flaws.

 

[PRmerger]

Great, we agree, so I can assume you are going to change your wording to reflect that!

Let’s make a deal:

I’ll change my signature to reflect what *you *think it should say and you add a signature with what I think it should say.

I’ll even give you some choices!

-gtrenewed:* I know the Catholic Church is the Church Christ founded…I’m just here on the CAFs to explore that concept.*
[SIGN]
-The Catholic Church: One, Holy, Apostolic and True![/SIGN]

-gtrenewed: Following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition comes from the Holy Spirit who dwells in her)

-gtrenewed: The Bible–thanks, Catholic Church for using Sacred Tradition to compile it!

I’m up for the change if you are!

 

[Rightlydivide]

all anyone has to do, regardless of denomination, (if they want access to the infallible truths of God) - is open their bible and start reading and interpreting as the holy spirit moves them? As a former non-Catholic this was a hard pill to swallow; I tried to embrace the ideological view, but I just couldn’t get passed the obvious flaws.

I can imagine it was a hard pill to swallow primarily because the Bible does not teach that, does it?

 

[schaick]

I am absolutely not trying to talk him out of believing in the Trinity. I am trying to point out that Scripture is NOT clear on the Trinity. The Bible supports the concept, it does not clearly spell it out.

Shiack - Spoken words which became Scripture some time after he passed away. Spoken words which were shared only orally until such a time as someone sat down and wrote what he’d said. Spoken words which are not ALL WRITTEN DOWN. The Gospels state that not all Jesus taught is in Scripture. So we must assume some of it was passed down orally and through Tradition alone.

We will have to agree to disagree the Trinity concept as in the Bible is very clear to many Christians. That is why the majority of Christians are trinitarian and not Jehovah Witnesses who really have to twist scrpiture to deny the Triune GOD.

*“The Gospels state that not all Jesus taught is in Scripture.” *

Yes and HE sent the Holy Spirit so that HIS teachings could be recorded:

John 16
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

John 16
13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come

John 14
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

So you are saying that important facts dealing with our salvation was left out of GOD’s Word?

Why would GOD wait a few hundreds of years and say oh by the way you must also believe this or that to be saved?

Do you realize that the oral tradition from the eyewitnesses passed down through maybe one generation, if that. Paul died around 67AD and scholars believe the Gospels were written and separately circulating around to the various Churches the way Pauls letters were.

Matthew 60’s
Mark late 50’s, early 60’s
Luke 60
John late 80’s, early 90’s

 

[schaick]

**Originally Posted by joe370 **
all anyone has to do, regardless of denomination, (if they want access to the infallible truths of God) - is open their bible and start reading and interpreting as the holy spirit moves them? As a former non-Catholic this was a hard pill to swallow; I tried to embrace the ideological view, but I just couldn’t get passed the obvious flaws.

I can imagine it was a hard pill to swallow primarily because the Bible does not teach that, does it?

As far as you know is there a denomination that teaches this?

 

[schaick]

No, schaick. NONE of the Catholic doctrines are “scripture based”. The church founded by Christ is not a “bible based church”. The Catholic doctrines were delivered whole and entire by Christ to the Church before a word of the NT was ever written. On the contrary, the Scriptures REFLECT the Teachings of Jesus that were committed once for all to the saints

NONE based on GOD’s WORD, ok thank you for stating that

We see all these doctrines reflected in the scripture, just as you see the Trinity and the hypostatic union there. We see them because we received the faith, and when we read the Scripture, we read it through the lens of those who wrote it. You read it a little differently because you are wearing the lenses handed down by the Reformers.

No not reformers but Christian a member of Jesus’ universal Church.

Yes, but one would expect that you would seek these things from other “bible christians”, rather than CAF, since we reject the premise by which you interpret.

Yes. This “list” along with all the creeds and decisions of the infallible councils, were all to guard against heresy. Heresy was defined as those beliefs and practices that depart from the Apostolic Teaching which was preserved in Sacred Tradition.

How is it you think I interprete the Bible? Don’t you remember in Junior High how wew were to interprete novels, poems? This isn’t rocket science.

who wrote/spoke the passage
whom is the verse speaking to
definition of words used
immediate context
broader context in the chapter and book
historical and cultural background
conclusions agree or disagree with related areas of Scripture

Yes I understand that there were Gnostic group even before or at the same time Jesus’ Church was built which would actually point for the need to get the true Gospels written and identified as early as possible.

So are you/Catholics saying you believe the doctrines were made first and then Scipture was written around those creeds and doctrines?

There were over 400 written works at the time, all claiming to be Scripture. Yes, God led the Church to choose those which reflect the faith that was passed down from the Apostles. This is why there are no contradictions between Catholic Teaching and the Scripture. Both come from the same Source.

What time are you speaking of here?

60 AD, 300 AD, 400 AD?

 

[nickybr38]

Why would GOD wait a few hundreds of years and say oh by the way you must also believe this or that to be saved?

Do you realize that the oral tradition from the eyewitnesses passed down through maybe one generation, if that. Paul died around 67AD and scholars believe the Gospels were written and separately circulating around to the various Churches the way Pauls letters were.

Do you realize most people in that time period couldn’t read anyway and that God was sharing His Gospel THROUGH His Apostles and THEIR Apostles ORALLY?