You can't have it both ways.

[Rightlydivide]

Then we are in agreeance.

I also feel Scripture does not save us.
I also feel Scripture alone is not enough to guide us into fully Christian lives.
I do not believe Tradition saves us.

Here’s what I do believe. I do believe that the Apostles had Apostles… and they shared their teaching and wisdom with these men. I believe that these teachers trained more teachers throughout the years and I believe now that you can only find these teachers in the Catholic Church. Men who can trace their teachers right back to the Apostles.

To me that’s so important.

Because ultimately it comes down to: Who can I trust? I cannot interpret Scripture on my own, but who can I trust? How do I know who has the Holy Spirit and who doesn’t?

Apostolic Succession answers that question neatly. Who else can I trust except men who are, essentially, the students of the Apostles themselves?

And that’s what I believe. And that’s why I believe Scripture is not enough. Scripture means nothing if I have no one who can explain it to me.

We know that lots of groups have apostolic succession, or claim to have it. I do not say that to be argumentative but you understand that early church history is often murky and so forth…example the distinction between bishops and presbyters etc
anyway, my question is what do you with the different groups that also claim apostolic succession and yet disagree?

 

[nickybr38]

We know that lots of groups have apostolic succession, or claim to have it. I do not say that to be argumentative but you understand that early church history is often murky and so forth…example the distinction between bishops and presbyters etc
anyway, my question is what do you with the different groups that also claim apostolic succession and yet disagree?

Nothing wrong with being argumentative! Haha.

I think history speaks for itself. I have no doubt the Orthodox Church (for example - I hope I spelled that right yikes!) does have some level of Apostolic Succession, and in fact if I hadn’t decided on the Catholic Church I might have gone there. However, there is only one Successor to St. Peter. I’ll stick with the Church that falls under the direction of the Steward of Christ.

Beyond that my history is a bit shaky still (still studying it) so I won’t get into too detailed a debate about this particular subject.

 

[reteeks21]

We know that lots of groups have apostolic succession, or claim to have it. I do not say that to be argumentative but you understand that early church history is often murky and so forth…example the distinction between bishops and presbyters etc
anyway, my question is what do you with the different groups that also claim apostolic succession and yet disagree?

You raise a very good point. Here’s how I would answer it:
Only one group has claimed succession since the beginning of the Church. All the other groups are literally off-shoots of the Church. Given that, I’m sticking with the original, but I can easily see why there might be confusion.

Also, do any of the Church Fathers disagree on major doctrinal issues that you know of?

 

[Rightlydivide]

You raise a very good point. Here’s how I would answer it:
Only one group has claimed succession since the beginning of the Church. All the other groups are literally off-shoots of the Church. Given that, I’m sticking with the original, but I can easily see why there might be confusion.

Also, do any of the Church Fathers disagree on major doctrinal issues that you know of?

I think this will get away from the thread. I will state, that the groups that claim apostolic succession and trace their bishops to the apostles do not believe they are off shots.

Yes, the church fathers disagree on numerous things but goodness that is even more off topic probably. It is interesting that the things they all agreed on are probably those things we agree on, with some very notable exceptions.

 

[gtrenewed]

Well! That’s a little rude. If your mother were having surgery and your pastor said, “I’ll pray for her” you wouldn’t say, “Thank you so much!” You’d say, “Well, I’m not going to let you take credit for that. I’m going to thank God only.”

It’s a good thing Catholics get that most things aren’t either/or but both/and. We can thank each other for interceding for us, and thank God.

I can thank you for praying but you said “if I got the parking place to thank you.” What if I didn’t - should I blame you for an ineffective prayer? Of course not. Our prayers are dependent upon God’s Will as revealed in His Word.

In my mind, I was not being rude. If you took it this way, I apologize. When we are prompted to pray for others we should not take credit for praying and the result but thank God for the result and for being included in the process as a gift from God.

So it is not an either/or or both/and question. All Christians I know thank each other for praying for each other but the answer is always God’s.

 

[gtrenewed]

So, if it’s that easy, in your opinion, “what is necessary for salvation and for the Christian life”?

I would ask you what you mean by “it’s that easy”?

Salvation? “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” Eph 2:8-9

Christian life? The ages since Christ have brought many suggestions and we will not elucidate them all here. Suffice it to say that is dependent on God’s plan for each individuals’ life. Our works, following savation, define us as Christians on a journey.

The journey is difficult enough without worrying about my salvation. That is secured in Jesus by faith. James refers to works, not for obtaining salvation, but as one visible sign that the Spirit lives in us. If you read this in context, James is rebuking those that claim Jesus but favor the rich over the poor. Those that have Jesus by faith will have mercy as one characteristic of the life in the Spirit.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Have you ever heard of fellowship?

You see no benefit in discussing each others applications?

Does Catholic Answers qualify? We discuss Christianity and the Bible here, don’t we? Isn’t Catholic Answers Forums a type of “fellowship”, where fellow Christains are “discussing each other’s applications”? Or… are Catholics “disqualified”, simply because they aren’t Protestant? I want to join… … The “fellowship”…not Protestantism…:extrahappy:

 

[gtrenewed]

Please tell us what’s “necessary for salvation”, and what verses tell you this. Book, chapter and verse, please.

And, after you provide us with this list, please tell us why the other verses in Scripture are, therefore, not necessary.

Salvation: The Grace of God that grants us repentence - faith in Jesus as the Son of God and the cross and resurrection of Jesus here on earth in completing the Will of the Father - all being the gift of God and not by our own works.
Eph 2:8-9; Rom 10:9-13; among many other places.

All Scripture, the Word of God, is necessary for we live by every Word that proceeds from the Mouth of God.

 

[JackVk]

Salvation: The Grace of God that grants us repentence - faith in Jesus as the Son of God and the cross and resurrection of Jesus here on earth in completing the Will of the Father - all being the gift of God and not by our own works.
Eph 2:8-9; Rom 10:9-13; among many other places.

All Scripture, the Word of God, is necessary for we live by every Word that proceeds from the Mouth of God.

“For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law will be justified”. Romans 2:13

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” Titus 1:16

“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation” 2 Peter 1:20

 

[Jimmy_B]

I would ask you what you mean by “it’s that easy”?

Salvation? “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” Eph 2:8-9

Christian life? The ages since Christ have brought many suggestions and we will not elucidate them all here. Suffice it to say that is dependent on God’s plan for each individuals’ life. Our works, following savation, define us as Christians on a journey.

The journey is difficult enough without worrying about my salvation. That is secured in Jesus by faith. James refers to works, not for obtaining salvation, but as one visible sign that the Spirit lives in us. If you read this in context, James is rebuking those that claim Jesus but favor the rich over the poor. Those that have Jesus by faith will have mercy as one characteristic of the life in the Spirit.

I would ask you what you mean by “it’s that easy”?

*A while ago now, you posted, in your earlier post here (#367), the post that I was responding to, that, *“The trust that God included **all ****necessary direction in scripture”

*So, all we need to do is get a Bible (I already have several) and read it and everything else will be taken care of…right? That sounds easy to me. If that’s not what you meant here, then please explain yourself? *

Salvation? “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” Eph 2:8-9

*Christian life? The ages since Christ have brought many suggestions and we will not elucidate them all here. Suffice it to say that is dependent on God’s plan for each individuals’ life. Our works, following salvation, define us as Christians on a journey. *

*The journey is difficult enough without worrying about my salvation. *

What do you me by* “The journey is difficult enough without worrying about my salvation.” *You do know that we Catholics are “comforted by the hope of Salvation”…right?

That is secured in Jesus by faith. James refers to works, not for obtaining salvation, but as one visible sign that the Spirit lives in us. If you read this in context, James is rebuking those that claim Jesus but favor the rich over the poor. Those that have Jesus by faith will have mercy as one characteristic of the life in the Spirit

Ah… the Catholic Epistle of St. James…I like the book James, many verses from James’ are used to support Catholic arguments. Did you know that Martin Luther referred to the book of James as the “Book of Straw” and that he wanted to exclude it from the Bible?

The thread question here involves the Protestant belief in Sola scriptura and now you are bringing up an entirely different issue, which goes Justification, Salvation and whether or we are judged, or “Saved” by Faith Alone or by Grace, Faith plus Works.

Where did you derive your definition of scripture here. Is this something that you did all by yourself, using personal interpretation, or is it possible that your belief here, may have been influenced by someone else, if you were influence by someone else, then obviously we need more than the Bible?

You mentioned “fellowship” in another post. Why be involved in the act of “fellowship” if it’s not necessary for Salvation?

Wouldn’t the acts of becoming Married, Baptized, asking for forgiveness, praying, reciting the “Born-Again” Sinner’s Prayer and so on… be acts of “Good Works”?

Aren’t “Good Works”, doing those things that are pleasing to God. The story of John the Baptist, baptizing Jesus comes to mind.

Are you somehow, implying that it isn’t necessary to those things, which are pleasing to God, for Salvation?

Are you implying that we don’t have to go through, for example, a marriage ceremony, to live like husband and wife, or that we don’t have to be Baptized to obtain Salvation?

Aren’t those examples of Christian, physical acts of “Good Works”, necessary for Salvation?

Your thoughts?

Thank you for your post.

 

[Dokimas]

Ok. But they are man-made traditions done in the context of a religious ritual by a minister invoking the name of God.

And because of these traditions, are you saying God gets misrepresented or worse?

 

[Dokimas]

You don’t believe that a church, regardless of denomination, is an organization?

The church Jesus founded is an organism of living stones, IMO.

 

[Dokimas]

Basically what you are saying is that God is too weak or disinterested to preserve His Word in the Church where He deposted it.

Or, perhaps you are saying that the shortcoming of man are stronger than the ability of God to preserve His Word?

God’s Word is most definately preserved. Now that we’ve got that straight, it’s most likely NOT preserved the way you think it is nor the way I think.

 

[Jimmy_B]

The church Jesus founded is an organism of living stones, IMO.

Hello Dokimas,

“…an organism of living stones”

I don’t know if I’ve never heard this phrase before. What does it mean?

Thanks.

 

[Dokimas]

Schaick or Dokimas…

Since the bible is a collection of books, like any other book, it needs an authoritative interpreter, and ultimately, interpreting scripture comes down to a question of authority and who has it, which means that anyone and everyone who does so is putting him/herself in a position of authority. It is no secret that the greatest obstacle to Christian unity is also the question of authority, regarding the interpretation of scripture.

Who, in this divisive world of Christianity, was entrusted with the God given authority, via the guidance of the holy spirit, to interpret scripture infallibly? **I know it was NOT entrusted to me **or you or anyone else here at this thread. Of course we can interpret scripture, but ultimately, we were not entrusted with the divine mission via the guidance of the holy spirit, in perpetuity, to interpret scripture infallibly. Somebody was, otherwise some of the the doctrinal truths found within the pages of scripture cannot be known to all. For example, again, someone is 100% wrong about their interpretation of the Eucharist and someone is 100% right about their interpretation of the Eucharist, and the bible is of no help at all in settling this dispute, so help me find that person or people, in a position of authority, who can settle this dispute once and for all, and let’s assume for the time being that it is not the CC for the simple fact that every time I address this subject people **( not you guys) **- come back with some sort of dismissive remark about the CC which not only fails to address the question but changes the subject altogether.

Thanks guys…

I speak for me … The Bible isn’t like anyother book. It was inspired by the Holy Spirit and it is the Holy Spirit alone that is able to righty interpret God’s Word.

The authority belongs to Jesus and those He calls into His service. The authority lies within His church which is far bigger than the CC.

IMO, as God looks down at us as we partake of communion (eucharist) His sees our hearts and sees past whether we think it’s literally the Body and Blood of Jesus or a symbol of remembrance. He knows who are truly His children by adoption, part of the Bride of Christ.

Let me ask you a question, please. What if it is proven that Mary had biological children from her own womb after Jesus? Will you totally give up on the CC because it was wrong on one issue? I sure hope not. I hope you’d realize there is NO perfect church, just Christian churches with people whose hearts are after Jesus.

 

[Dokimas]

They are most certainly traditions that have their origins among Christians. There is nothing inherintly wrong with human traditions. Protestants practice plenty of human traditions, along with Sola Scriptura. Most of them, such as the ones listed above this post, do not nullify the commandment of God, like SS does.

Please read my whole statement. Are they traditions that, if NOT followed, disobey God?

BTW, the giving of rings may have gone back as far as ancient Rome or earlier so would not be ‘Christian’.

 

[Dokimas]

Luke was the first to use the adjective “kath holos” to describe the Church throughout the world. The term was in regular use by AD 107, as it was used formally by Ignatius.

I’m not too good at grammar as I regularly display here on CAF, but I thought an adjective was different than a proper noun.

 

[Dokimas]

I came here initially to witness to Muslims. I have been doing this on various forums for over 8 years. I was actually able to help one that was sitting on the fence to jump over to become a Christian.

When I started I went to Muslim forums, but got sort of freaked out by their love of the taliban, hate of everything west, hate of Paul, some would curse Jesus, etc. I decided to go to Christian based sites.

Great.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I speak for me … The Bible isn’t like anyother book. It was inspired by the Holy Spirit and it is the Holy Spirit alone that is able to righty interpret God’s Word.

The authority belongs to Jesus and those He calls into His service. The authority lies within His church which is far bigger than the CC.

IMO, as God looks down at us as we partake of communion (eucharist) His sees our hearts and sees past whether we think it’s literally the Body and Blood of Jesus or a symbol of remembrance. He knows who are truly His children by adoption, part of the Bride of Christ.

Let me ask you a question, please. What if it is proven that Mary had biological children from her own womb after Jesus? Will you totally give up on the CC because it was wrong on one issue? I sure hope not. I hope you’d realize there is NO perfect church, just Christian churches with people whose hearts are after Jesus.

Hello Dokimas,

Your comments are in blue.

I speak for me … The Bible isn’t like any other book. It was inspired by the Holy Spirit and it is the Holy Spirit alone that is able to righty interpret God’s Word.

I agree

The authority belongs to Jesus and those He calls into His service. The authority lies within His church

I agree… His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

which is far bigger than the CC.

There may be truth in this, in that all properly baptized Christians, are our brothers and sisters in Christ.

IMO, as God looks down at us as we partake of communion (eucharist) His sees our hearts

I agree

and sees past whether we think it’s literally the Body and Blood of Jesus or a symbol of remembrance.

I don’t know about that… a denial of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, is a rejection of a Christian truth, is it not?
.
He knows who are truly His children by adoption, part of the Bride of Christ.

I agree

*Let me ask you a question, please. What if it is proven that Mary had biological children from her own womb after Jesus? *

Do you have any evidence of this?

*Will you totally give up on the CC because it was wrong on one issue? *

I’m sure they are not wrong on this issue. The Perpetual Virginity of the Mary, the blessed mother of God, is a Catholic belief and therefore a Christian truth.

I sure hope not. I hope you’d realize there is NO perfect church, just Christian churches with people whose hearts are after Jesus

Jesus said*-**“And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”* (Matthew 16:18) and I believe Him.

Your thoughts?

 

[Dokimas]

Wow.

1. The Holy Trinity concept is NOT clear in Scripture. Not even a little bit. That’s why Jehovah Witnesses reject it almost completely despite having the Bible (and then later their own translation of the Bible).

God being a multi-faceted Being is quite clear from the Bible.

The JW’s version is quite different in important places like…

From the NKJV — Acts 20:

28 “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”

From the NWT — Acts 20:

28 “Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed YOU overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son].”

The NKJV makes it clear that Jesus and God are one and the same.

Then there’s John 1:1

NKJV — “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

NWT — “In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”