You can't have it both ways.

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Jimmy_B said:
No Jon,

Lol… you already know how bias I am, so I’m not even going to try to hide it…😃

However, to answer your question here; I went back a ways and look through the posts here, because I haven’t posted very much on this thread lately and it didn’t seem like there were very many posts by non-Catholics, using, very many Bible references and when I did post Bible verses that support our position, I didn’t get a Protestant response. If I’m wrong, please feel free to point it out.

Thanks. 🙂
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The problem I have found on this thread is that when I have used Scripture, the Word of God, to prove its sufficiency, I never got a response other than RC doctrine or no response at all. I found it was a circular discussion, you are right because you cannot be wrong.
 
JonNC said:
Jimmy,
Is this an unbiased opinion? 😃

Jon
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Jon,

In all fairness to your question here, there have been several posts here by "Sola scriptura, non-Catholic Christians. I went back and browsed through all 700+ posts on this thread (only because I like you :D) and this is what I discovered -

Here are the non-Catholic posters and their number of posts where Bible verses were used to try to justify Sola scriptura -

gtrenewed - 3
Rightlydivide - 4
Dokimas - 5
Bysatine Wolf - 1
Roy 5 - 1
Schaick - 13
Total posts, 27 out of 710 posts… I expected the “Bible alone” people would stick to using the Bible alone, when making their argument. Am, I wrong in believing that? When I went through these verses, few, if any came close to supporting a belief in Sola scriptura and many were just completely off topic. And, for the Catholics here, who don’t believe in Sola scriptura, there were far many more Bible verses used, can anyone explain how that happened?

I posted numerous “Catholic verses” on posts #86-88 and #96 and would like a biblical response from the other side.

My main point here being, shouldn’t people who believe in “Sola scriptura” be able to support that belief by using the Bible alone?

Your thoughts?
 
Would somebody please, simply post a list of the “Protestant verses” that supposedly support a belief in Sola scriptura? Thank you.
 
gtrenewed said:
The problem I have found on this thread is that when I have used Scripture, the Word of God, to prove its sufficiency, I never got a response other than RC doctrine or no response at all. I found it was a circular discussion, you are right because you cannot be wrong.
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you are right because you cannot be wrong

Can I get that in writing… wait a minute, it is in writing… awesome…lol… 😃

Read my last couple of posts and tell me what you think.
 
Jimmy_B said:
Would somebody please, simply post a list of the “Protestant verses” that supposedly support a belief in Sola scriptura? Thank you.
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By Sola Scriptura I mean Scripture is sufficient guidance to follow Jesus into eternal life:

2Tim 3:15-17
Heb 4:12
Rev 1:3
Eph 6:17
Rom 16:26
Acts 8:35
Rom 4:3
Rom 10:11
Gal 3:8
Gal 3:22
1Pet 2:2
1Pet 2:6
Acts 17:2,3
Acts 17:11,12
Rom 15:4
1Cor 15:3,4

How is that for starts?
 
gtrenewed said:
By Sola Scriptura I mean Scripture is sufficient guidance to follow Jesus into eternal life:

2Tim 3:15-17
Heb 4:12
Rev 1:3
Eph 6:17
Rom 16:26
Acts 8:35
Rom 4:3
Rom 10:11
Gal 3:8
Gal 3:22
1Pet 2:2
1Pet 2:6
Acts 17:2,3
Acts 17:11,12
Rom 15:4
1Cor 15:3,4

How is that for starts?
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As a Catholic, I would agree, but with one caveat: doctrine develops over time to deal with a changing world in which the Church Militant is situated.
 
gtrenewed said:
By Sola Scriptura I mean Scripture is sufficient guidance to follow Jesus into eternal life:

2Tim 3:15-17
Heb 4:12
Rev 1:3
Eph 6:17
Rom 16:26
Acts 8:35
Rom 4:3
Rom 10:11
Gal 3:8
Gal 3:22
1Pet 2:2
1Pet 2:6
Acts 17:2,3
Acts 17:11,12
Rom 15:4
1Cor 15:3,4

How is that for starts?
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Thank you brother… I’ll go and look at these verses…🙂
 
Jimmy’s heading off to Starbucks to load up on caffeine. He’s going to be pulling an all-nighter studying this stack of verses! 😛
Jimmy_B said:
Thank you brother… I’ll go and look at these verses…🙂
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I think the intellectual study is absolutely 100% essential. The intellect and emotional/spiritual element compliment each other completely. I have read about the Great Schism at length, though admitedly not in a while. It was an intense tragedy seperating two lungs that breathed the Holy Spirit as one. The current state of affairs is totally unacceptable.
StTommyMore said:
Seriously, it was not a comparative analysis between Orthodoxy and Catholicism that drew me into the Catholic Church. To be honest, I am not all that well educated on the issues behind the Great Schism. Some are led to belief through intellectual study (such as Dr. Scott Hahn), but that was not part of my conversion. So I can honestly say that I accept that"the Church" of the Scriptures is the Catholic Church on faith. I can tell you no more than that.
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Jimmy_B said:
you are right because you cannot be wrong

Can I get that in writing… wait a minute, it is in writing… awesome…lol… 😃

Read my last couple of posts and tell me what you think.
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A circular arguement once again! I never said I was right because I cannot be wrong. It is CCC doctrine which says this.

As I have said, I take what is given seriously and I search the Scriptures. As I have grown, I have seen areas where my understanding is refined due to a teaching from Scripture.

If I believe I am right it is not because I cannot be wrong but that is my understanding of Scripture. God gives us space to grow. That is why our salvation by faith and not by works is such a comfort.
 
gtrenewed, to which Protestant group do you belong?
gtrenewed said:
A circular arguement once again! I never said I was right because I cannot be wrong. It is CCC doctrine which says this.

As I have said, I take what is given seriously and I search the Scriptures. As I have grown, I have seen areas where my understanding is refined due to a teaching from Scripture.

If I believe I am right it is not because I cannot be wrong but that is my understanding of Scripture. God gives us space to grow. That is why our salvation by faith and not by works is such a comfort.
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2Tim 3:15-17: Yes Scripture is inspired and useful, but nowhere does this passage indicate that only Scripture is useful, nor does it indicate that Scripture is sufficient.

Heb 4:12: If yoyu read on to verse 13, you will see the personal pronoun “he.” The only possible antecedent is “word of God.” Therefore, this passage is not referencing the Scriptures, but the Divine Logos, the Incarnate Word of God.

Rev 1:3: This is saying that blessed is he who hears the Scriptures in the proper context of Liturgy.

Eph 6:17: Again, this does not indicate sole sufficiency, but utility.

Rom 16:26: This refers to the reading of the Scriptures to the assembly, not private study. This is another indication of the centrality of the Liturgy.

Acts 8:35: This is the actions of a preacher teaching, not individual study. Was the Holy Spirit incapable of teaching the Ethiopian on His own, or is this a case that Scripture is not clear, and Spirit filled interpreters are needed?

Rom 4:3: What does this show, other than utility of typology?

Rom 10:11: Again, simply quoting the OT in no way establishes Sola Scriptura

Gal 3:8: See note at Rom 10:11

Gal 3:22 ditto

1Pet 2:2 To claim that this verse speaks to Scripture Alone requires an assumption. There is no reference to Scripture at all here.

1Pet 2:6 This likewise does not speak to Scripture alone

Acts 17:2,3 Scripture alone is sufficient? Not any indication here, only its utility. I feel like a broken record.

Acts 17:11,12 Can one use the scriptures alone to come to belief? Yes. Is this the only way they can come to belief? No.

Rom 15:4 Speaks to the purpose of Scripture, at least the OT (the NT was not written and collected yet), but says nothing of exclusivity.

1Cor 15:3,4 See above.

As you can see, this list is based on misinterpreting Scriptures by taking them out of context. The Scriptures are not a collection of proof-texts, but is a love letter written from God to humanity. After all, it begins with a wedding, ends with a wedding, and has a love poem right in the middle. This misinterpretation happens when Scripture is removed form Liturgy.
 
gtrenewed said:
…
2Tim 3:15-17
Heb 4:12
Rev 1:3
Eph 6:17
Rom 16:26…

How is that for starts?
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For starters… 😃
2Tim 3:15-17
*a**nd that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. *

Look at the previous verse -

2 Timothy 3:14,15
I am writing you about these matters**, although I hope to visit you soon**. But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

And -

2Timothy 1:13
Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
2Timothy 2:2
And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.

Heb 4:12
Indeed, the word of God is living and effective, sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating even between soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and able to discern reflections and thoughts of the heart.

Read the next couple of verses -

Hebrew 12:14
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession.

Rev 1:3
Blessed is the one who reads aloud and blessed are those who listen to this prophetic message and heed what is written in it, for the appointed time is near.

Read the two previous verses -

Revelations 1:1,2
  1. the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
    2 .who gives witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ by reporting what he saw.
Eph 6:17
*And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. *

Read the next few verses -

Ephesians 6:18,19
With all prayer and supplication, pray at every opportunity in the Spirit. To that end, be watchful with all perseverance and supplication for all the holy ones and also for me, that speech may be given me to open my mouth, **to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel **

Rom 16:26
but now manifested through the prophetic writings and, according to the command of the eternal God, made known to all nations to bring about the obedience of faith,

**Read Romans 16:22-26. This one is an interesting one, because it is recording something written by “Tertius”. Apparently referring to a manuscript… another document, outside the Bible… . There is no “Book of Tertius” in the Bible. **

Romans 16:22-26
I, Tertius, the writer of this letter, greet you in the Lord. Gaius, who is host to me and to the whole church, greets you. Erastus, the city treasurer, and our brother Quartus greet you. Now to him who can strengthen you, according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret for long ages but now manifested through the prophetic writings and, according to the command of the eternal God, made known to all nations to bring about the obedience of faith,

To be continued…
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
gtrenewed, to which Protestant group do you belong?
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Good question???

I don’t fit many places because according to Scripture:
I believe in the real presence bread and wine but not transubstantiation;
I believe in salvation by faith alone but also that baptism is necessary to walk as a disciple of Jesus and that a type of regeneration happens in baptism;
I believe in the gifts of the Spirit and their manifestations including tongues but not caught up in any of the craziness found in some churches… anymore :o;

However there are believers out here to fellowship with who have had similar experiences.

How’s that?
 
You sound like an evangelical Anglican…just from what you said. Go read the 39 Articles. Sounds like what you’re saying.
gtrenewed said:
Good question???

I don’t fit many places because according to Scripture:
I believe in the real presence bread and wine but not transubstantiation;
I believe in salvation by faith alone but also that baptism is necessary to walk as a disciple of Jesus and that a type of regeneration happens in baptism;
I believe in the gifts of the Spirit and their manifestations including tongues but not caught up in any of the craziness found in some churches… anymore :o;

However there are believers out here to fellowship with who have had similar experiences.

How’s that?
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gtrenewed said:
Good question???

I don’t fit many places because according to Scripture:
I believe in the real presence bread and wine but not transubstantiation;
I believe in salvation by faith alone but also that baptism is necessary to walk as a disciple of Jesus and that a type of regeneration happens in baptism;
I believe in the gifts of the Spirit and their manifestations including tongues but not caught up in any of the craziness found in some churches… anymore :o;

However there are believers out here to fellowship with who have had similar experiences.

How’s that?
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In other words, you rely upon your own interpretation, instead of the infallible guide of the Church.
 
StTommyMore said:
2Tim 3:15-17: Yes Scripture is inspired and useful, but nowhere does this passage indicate that only Scripture is useful, nor does it indicate that Scripture is sufficient.
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Verse 15 says exactly that! “wisdom that leads to salvation…”
Heb 4:12: If yoyu read on to verse 13, you will see the personal pronoun “he.” The only possible antecedent is “word of God.” Therefore, this passage is not referencing the Scriptures, but the Divine Logos, the Incarnate Word of God.
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Scripture is the Word of God and Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, you cannot separate the two!
Rev 1:3: This is saying that blessed is he who hears the Scriptures in the proper context of Liturgy.
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You are adding words to this Scripture!
Eph 6:17: Again, this does not indicate sole sufficiency, but utility.
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Exactly, using Scripture for spiritual warfare, not man’s tradition.
Rom 16:26: This refers to the reading of the Scriptures to the assembly, not private study. This is another indication of the centrality of the Liturgy.
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No, this says that by scripture one is lead to faith
Acts 8:35: This is the actions of a preacher teaching, not individual study. Was the Holy Spirit incapable of teaching the Ethiopian on His own, or is this a case that Scripture is not clear, and Spirit filled interpreters are needed?
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Of course, a preacher preaching Scripture. I never denied Scripture about preachers, teachers, etc. My point here is that he heard Scripture, came to faith, was immediately baptized. Is that how your church does it?
Rom 4:3: What does this show, other than utility of typology?
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My premise was that scripture is sufficient to follow Jesus into eternal life. This says that Scripture contains examples of exactly that, Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.
Rom 10:11: Again, simply quoting the OT in no way establishes Sola Scriptura
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This scripture says that whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed and belief can be found in Scripture as seen above, sufficient to find and follow Jesus.
1Pet 2:2 To claim that this verse speaks to Scripture Alone requires an assumption. There is no reference to Scripture at all here.
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Again Scripture is the Word of God!
1Pet 2:6 This likewise does not speak to Scripture alone
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With Scripture alone, one can come to faith, whether from preaching or reading mixed with faith.
Acts 17:2,3 Scripture alone is sufficient? Not any indication here, only its utility. I feel like a broken record.
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Yeah, a really uninspired broken record
Acts 17:11,12 Can one use the scriptures alone to come to belief? Yes. Is this the only way they can come to belief? No.
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Finally you agree with me that one can come to faith using the scriptures and I never said it was the only way except that by preaching or reading it must agree with scripture for God said He watches over His Word to make it come to pass!
As you can see, this list is based on misinterpreting Scriptures by taking them out of context. The Scriptures are not a collection of proof-texts, but is a love letter written from God to humanity. After all, it begins with a wedding, ends with a wedding, and has a love poem right in the middle. This misinterpretation happens when Scripture is removed form Liturgy.
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You just agree with and now you are disagreeing? I gave this list at the request of Jimmy. I agree it is a love letter but the context is the sufficiency of scripture to lead us into love. By the way, everyone in scripture came to faith outside your liturgy for it was not developed as of yet.
 
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