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nbtb1348
Guest
So you agree that the NT definintion of a saint is any person who is a believer; in Christ, born again. Is that correct?
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RobHom
Guest
That sentence/statement makes no sense whatsoever…
Why don’t you address the question I put to you prior…or is it “too” tricky to answer?
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RobHom
Guest
No, that would be your definition. The NT did not define the word “Saint” or “Saints”. Apparently you missed the lesson that pointed out that the word has a 13th Century AD etymology that was anglo-french? The word “Saint” does not appear in the NT, not with the definition that you ascribe to it.
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RobHom
Guest
brkn1… Have you been able to come up with a better answer to this than you failed to do in that other weird thread where your only response to my question below was some goofy answer involving a space ship and idiocy?
3d…A man is born and raised a Christian, accepts Christ as his Savior…lives a good Christian life for many years, lets say 50 years, then one day…something tragic happens in his life, something that is inexplicable, and he goes nuts and walks into a Burger King full of moms and dads and kids on a Sunday afternoon with an AK-47 and kills 40 or 50 innocent people. He is captured and examined by no less than five Psychatrists and certified fully sane…just angry. Understands right and wrong, is mentally competent, and has proven it.
So, according to “your theology”:
He’s still “saved”, he is “guaranteed” salvation??
]Unless of course what all the blather and bluster about the “elect vs the non-elect” is really little more than a religious ponzi scheme with a built in cop out to account for failures by declaring someone as having “never been saved” anyway?
Come on now…I think we’re still waiting to here your “biblical justification” for this guys keeping his salvation as one of the “elect” or how you RATIONALIZE
that he never was one of the “elect”!!
Please fill us in on this…
3d…A man is born and raised a Christian, accepts Christ as his Savior…lives a good Christian life for many years, lets say 50 years, then one day…something tragic happens in his life, something that is inexplicable, and he goes nuts and walks into a Burger King full of moms and dads and kids on a Sunday afternoon with an AK-47 and kills 40 or 50 innocent people. He is captured and examined by no less than five Psychatrists and certified fully sane…just angry. Understands right and wrong, is mentally competent, and has proven it.
So, according to “your theology”:
He’s still “saved”, he is “guaranteed” salvation??
]Unless of course what all the blather and bluster about the “elect vs the non-elect” is really little more than a religious ponzi scheme with a built in cop out to account for failures by declaring someone as having “never been saved” anyway?
Come on now…I think we’re still waiting to here your “biblical justification” for this guys keeping his salvation as one of the “elect” or how you RATIONALIZE
that he never was one of the “elect”!!
Please fill us in on this…
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RobHom
Guest
**Still waiting brkn1 for that simple answer. I hope the test is not too difficult for you.
I’ll give you a hint… A Catholic can answer the question in a “heartbeat”.**
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brkn1
Guest
A Catholic would go to purgatory?
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jmcrae
Guest
How can He welcome someone who is not coming home?
Jesus loses sheep all the time. That is why He is always out looking for them.
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brkn1
Guest
I thought Jesus said that He would leave His 99 sheep behind to go fetch the one lost one?How can He welcome someone who is not coming home?
Jesus loses sheep all the time. That is why He is always out looking for them.
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jmcrae
Guest
Yes - but Jesus would not have to do this, if it were not possible for the sheep to get lost in the first place, which is the idea behind “once saved always saved.”
If “once saved always saved” were true, then Jesus would just let the lost ones go, because they were never really sheep, in the first place.
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brkn1
Guest
Once a person is saved, that person becomes one of Jesus’ sheep. As a Good Shepherd, Jesus never loses any of his sheep.
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jmcrae
Guest
No. A Catholic who committed mass murder, while in his right mind, would have committed a mortal sin.
If he dies before confessing it in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, he will go to Hell. Even though, prior to committing the murders, he was a good Christian and was on his way to Heaven.
He changed his own final destiny, by his own free and deliberate actions. Those who are in the state of grace at the time of their death go to Heaven. Those who are not, go to Hell. Even if, at some time previously during their lifetime, they had been in the state of grace.
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jmcrae
Guest
Then why tell the parable? And why tell the parable of the Prodigal Son, or the parable of the lost coin? If it is really not possible for any of us to be lost?
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brkn1
Guest
All are lost before being saved and they remain so, unless God saves them. Once saved, they become God’s possession and will not ever be lost as those parables point out.Then why tell the parable? And why tell the parable of the Prodigal Son, or the parable of the lost coin? If it is really not possible for any of us to be lost?
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jmcrae
Guest
Yes, but they don’t become “sheep” or “child” or “coin” until after their baptism into Christ. They aren’t members of Christ, until then.
So, again - why have parables that show that those who are already in the flock, in the family, in the household - can be lost and then found again?
Why not instead have parables about adding a new sheep to the flock, or adopting a new child, or earning a new coin?
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brkn1
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Being a child of God does not mean that some will not be disobedient children. They will stray or get temporarily lost as real children or sheep do. Those parables are about such temporarily “lost” children .Yes, but they don’t become “sheep” or “child” or “coin” until after their baptism into Christ. They aren’t members of Christ, until then.
So, again - why have parables that show that those who are already in the flock, in the family, in the household - can be lost and then found again?
Why not instead have parables about adding a new sheep to the flock, or adopting a new child, or earning a new coin?
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jmcrae
Guest
Exactly!
And when we are disobedient (temporarily), we are away from God. God has to come and find us, or else wait for us to return, before He can reunite us with Himself.
How God finds us is by awakening the desire for the Sacrament of Reconciliation in our hearts, and how we return is by making use of that Sacrament.
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brkn1
Guest
Where we differ is how we see a “backslider” from the Body of Christ. You believe that such a person loses all salvation and goes back to being at risk of going to hell again, unless he is re-saved.Exactly!
And when we are disobedient (temporarily), we are away from God. God has to come and find us, or else wait for us to return, before He can reunite us with Himself.
How God finds us is by awakening the desire for the Sacrament of Reconciliation in our hearts, and how we return is by making use of that Sacrament.
(1Peter 1:23) explains that those born again are of “incorruptible seed”, which means that they can not be lost at the end. God will preserve them. (1 Peter 1:5) “Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”
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jmcrae
Guest
The Scriptures also warn that any Christian (“saved” person) who sins is at risk of going to Hell.
Actually “incorruptible” just means that it is a spiritual seed; not the seed of man and woman that makes a baby.
He is referring here to “those who obey” - but those who disobey have a different fate in store for them, by implication.
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brkn1
Guest
Are you sure that those Scripture are referring to a born again person?
Yes, but it is an incorruptible spiritual live that is born into the saved person. There was no such spiritual ability before the new birth. The lost are spiritually dead and can not be called children of God. That new spiritual life is sealed by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
But it says “Kept by the power of God”. There is no “those who obey” in that verse. It is God Who does the preserving.
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jmcrae
Guest
Yes, since those who have not yet been evangelized would have had no way of encountering these teachings. Neither Jesus nor St. Paul ever said things merely to be rhetorical - they were speaking to real believers who really were sinning, or could potentially have chosen to sin. Remember what Jesus says to those who cry out “Lord, Lord” (have faith and believe in Him) but do not do the things that He has commanded them to do - “good works,” as they are called.
We don’t “get saved” by our good works, but we remain saved by them - and not to do them, or else to commit sin, is to “work our way into Hell,” in a manner of speaking.
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