You don't need to believe in Christ to be saved?

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Melchior:
If they are so clear then why are well meaning catholics in dsagreement on certain things such as this. I think with all due respect that you are being more dogmatic than the magesterium. Another example is this: Predestination is dogma. However, one particular view of predestination is not dogma. A catholic is free to be an Augustinian/Thomist or a Molinist. But often you will here catholic saying things that leave the impression that Molinism is the clear teaching of the Church. Respectfully, I think you are approaching this similarly. If this issue were so clear then why do various councils try to clarify it every few centuries ala VII?
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Hmmm. No animosity here, huh? :hmmm:
You began with an inquiry because you thought a priest was giving an opinion, and now you have progressed to an all out assault on the magisterium and individual Catholics on this thread. Now you have seamlessly tiptoed into a discussion on predestination and it’s relation to Augustinian/Thomist and/or Molinist thought process. I will let others address your less than charitable concerns. I am not so learned yet as to represent all magisterial teachings. Good day sir.
 
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Melchior:
He did not say anything about death bed conversion regarding his Rabbi friend - that is what I was refering too when I said he did not say what you think he was saying. He specifically said he could be saved by being a good Jew and dying a good Jew. I listened very carefully and DVRed it, rewinding to make sure I heard right.
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This issue has been discussed on many threads. For some people is still difficult to understand the following dogmatic statement:

****Council of Florence (1438-1445) (****From the Bull “Cantate Domino”, February 4, 1441) It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

If a priest says that a “good” Jew is saved by being a “good” Jew, I prefer that “bad” priest doing anything else outside the Church but not poisoning Church’s teachings. Is it so difficult to understand that a “good” Jew is an enemy of Christ?
 
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1ke:
Mel, How ironic that it now comes out through one of your posts that you were a Catholic who left the church.

So, I’d say your situation-- having been a member of the True Church and rejecting Her-- is more precarious than a Jew’s-- who never had the fullness of Truth in the first place.

But, again, the part you are missing, and you said it yourself is “heard and understood”. Many people hear, few understand-- even you who started out Catholic fail to understand fully or you would not have left in the first place. To know the Church teaches the fullness of Truth and to willingly reject it is indeed to put yourself outside the Church and consequently in peril of Salvation.

Those who know and reject the Church and Christ are not in the same category as those who reject the Church and Christ without ever really believing in the Truth of it all.
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Well all I can say to this is - when a young boy in terror about Hell and could not get the simple question how can I be saved? answered by my CCD teachers, my preist etc. and a Protestant comes along and shares the simple gospel of Christ with me I am not too worried. Until then I did not know Christ or understand Him as my Savior and Lord. It took a non-Catholic to tell me the Truth. You may be familiar with the Archdiocese of Boston from recent history - it is or was full of hippy or gay priests who were not even close to being equipped to teach anyone anything of eternal importance. Suffice to say the church failed me when I was a frightened, desperate child. Other Christians brought me to Christ and I was truly converted to him. I have never lost faith in Him. So I am not in anyway in the same boat as an unbeliever. And I would not have elft had I thought Rome had the truth. If she did she did not make it easy for me to find.

I am not saying that the church is not the church because it failed me. But whether it is or is not, one thing is certain - it did fail me. Interesting that you can be much more certain about me, who has spent most of my life trying (most often failing) to follow Christ faithfully. Yet you are much more certain that nice people who reject Christ will be saved.

In the Catholic church I was unconverted. Outside of it I was converted to Christ. Happens to many reverts. During certain eras in her history it has taken Christians outside the church to teach people what it truly means to be Catholic because of the lousy local leadership in certain times and places- something I did not know at eight or 15 when I emotionally left Rome. I was 18 when I stopped going to Mass officially. I trust the Lord will be more merciful to those who embrace Christ in this situation rather than “play” catholic for the rest of their life and remain unconverted. If I remained as a cafeteria catholic would you still be concerned for my soul?

Mel
 
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Melchior:
Mickey,

He did not say anything about death bed conversion regarding his Rabbi friend - that is what I was refering too when I said he did not say what you think he was saying. He specifically said he could be saved by being a good Jew and dying a good Jew. I listened very carefully and DVRed it, rewinding to make sure I heard right.

Mel
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NO ONE is getting into the kingdom of heaven by being good. The Word of God says there is no one who is good except the Father. Someone is making false statements. :eek: God Bless
 
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estesbob:
Let me clarify-I meant there is no way he is going to be condemned to hell just becuase he is Jewish. Now he may go to hell for the amounthe charged me to my will but thats another story!
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Lol!

Ahem. I am half Jewish. You bigot! 😉
 
If a priest says that a “good” Jew is saved by being a “good” Jew, I prefer that “bad” priest doing anything else outside the Church but not poisoning Church’s teachings. Is it so difficult to understand that a “good” Jew is an enemy of Christ?
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================================================================================One has to be for Christ or against Him… If one is against, then they are an enemy of God. :eek: God bless
 
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Mickey:
Hmmm. No animosity here, huh? :hmmm:
You began with an inquiry because you thought a priest was giving an opinion, and now you have progressed to an all out assault on the magisterium and individual Catholics on this thread. Now you have seamlessly tiptoed into a discussion on predestination and it’s relation to Augustinian/Thomist and/or Molinist thought process. I will let others address your less than charitable concerns. I am not so learned yet as to represent all magisterial teachings. Good day sir.
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There was no attack intended, Mickey. I was merely giving an example to back up what I said. Not trying to start a discussion of Predestination. I was merely trying to say even things that are dogma are not necesarily defined in only one acceptable way. I think that is admirable of the magesterium. I was not attacking it. I was suggesting that sometimes one can be more Catholic than the Pope on certain issues. It did not come from animosity. I am discussing and debating not attacking. This thread progressed to this naturally. It’s not as if I went into attack mode.

People have come down harder on me in this thread than anyone else.
 
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barsapp:
This issue has been discussed on many threads. For some people is still difficult to understand the following dogmatic statement:

****Council of Florence (1438-1445) (****From the Bull “Cantate Domino”, February 4, 1441) It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

If a priest says that a “good” Jew is saved by being a “good” Jew, I prefer that “bad” priest doing anything else outside the Church but not poisoning Church’s teachings. Is it so difficult to understand that a “good” Jew is an enemy of Christ?
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Barsapp,

Well I gotta give you points for not shying away from Florence. I respect that. It seems to be that many catholics are not so much clarifying Florence as they are completely contradicting it. That’s how it seems to me anyway. Which is really the crux of this discussion isn’t it?
 
Hello Mel,

What you are looking at is Pope Eugene vs Pope John Paul II and Vatican II. Are they infallibly saying the same thing or are they in opposition to one another?

Pope Eugene 1441,The Church Teaches Ex Cathedra: **“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic **Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire “which was prepared for the devil, and his angels,” (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. **No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic **Church.”

(Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)

Pope John Paul II and Vatican II.

The following is a quote of Pope John Paul II’s statement in English to those gathered in St. Peter’s square on Wednesday, December 6th, 2000,

…The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the beatitudes: the poor in spirit; the pure in heart; those who will lovingly [endure] the sufferings of life; will enter God’s kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and His Church, contribute under the influence of grace, to the building of this kingdom. In the Lord’s prayer we say ‘Thy kingdom come’. May this be the hope that sustains us and inspires our Christian life and world."

We confess with the Apostle Paul “that there is salvation in no other name” (Acts 4:12). The “Dominus Iesus” declaration, in the wake of Vatican II, shows that with this the salvation of non-Christians is not denied, but explains its ultimate source in Christ, in whom God and man are united. God gives light to all in a way appropriate to their interior and environmental situation, granting them saving grace through ways known to him (see “Dominus Iesus,” VI, 20-21). The document clarifies the essential Christian elements, which do not obstruct the dialogue, but show its basis, because a dialogue without foundations would be destined to degenerate into empty verbosity.

Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation** in Jesus Christ**, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour.
 
oat soda:
i think benedict g. is too optomistic. he’s thinking with his heart and not his head. you have too extremes, either only catholics in a state of grace are saved, or everyone is saved. both can’t be true so the truth is somewhere in the middle.

the teaching that there is no salvation outside the church is almost meaningless. only insofar that when we are saved, it has to be through the church in some mysterious way. but the ordinary way to be saved is to be baptized and believe.

dominus iesus says it best. but we catholics will be more severely judged.
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I appreciate the honesty here. You make good sense.

(This is not directed at you Oat Soda) What is striking in all this that it seems like the old idea that Protestants all disgree on what scripture means can sometimes apply equally to catholics interpeting the magesterium. The clear meaning of scripture and the clear meaning of the magesterium are not always so clear no matter what sie of the Tiber you are on. 🙂
 
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Melchior:
I am not saying that the church is not the church because it failed me. But whether it is or is not, one thing is certain - it did fail me.
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I am sad that you had bad experiences while a member of the Catholic Church but I am happy that you have Christ in your life and in your heart. I truly pray that you hold no lasting animosity against the Church. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

May the peace and love of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ be with you always.
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Peace,
Mickey
 
Steven Merten:
What you are looking at is Pope Eugene vs Pope John Paul II and Vatican II. Are they infallibly saying the same thing or are they in opposition to one another?
Pope John Paul II and Vatican II. The following is a quote of Pope John Paul II’s statement in English to those gathered in St. Peter’s square on Wednesday, December 6th, 2000,…The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the beatitudes: the poor in spirit; the pure in heart; those who will lovingly [endure] the sufferings of life; will enter God’s kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and His Church, contribute under the influence of grace, to the building of this kingdom. In the Lord’s prayer we say ‘Thy kingdom come’. May this be the hope that sustains us and inspires our Christian life and world."We confess with the Apostle Paul “that there is salvation in no other name” (Acts 4:12). The “Dominus Iesus” declaration, in the wake of Vatican II, shows that with this the salvation of non-Christians is not denied, but explains its ultimate source in Christ, in whom God and man are united. God gives light to all in a way appropriate to their interior and environmental situation, granting them saving grace through ways known to him (see “Dominus Iesus,” VI, 20-21). The document clarifies the essential Christian elements, which do not obstruct the dialogue, but show its basis, because a dialogue without foundations would be destined to degenerate into empty verbosity. Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation** in Jesus Christ**, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour.
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also JP II:
“The mystery of salvation is revealed to us and is continued and accomplished in the Church…and from this genuine and single source, like ‘humble, useful, precious and chaste’ water, it reaches the whole world. Dear young people and members of the faithful, like Brother Francis we have to be conscious and absorb this fundamental and revealed truth, consecrated by tradition: ‘There is no salvation outside the Church.’ From her alone there flows surely and fully the life-giving force destined in Christ and in His Spirit, to renew the whole of humanity, and therefore directing every human being to become a part of the Mystical Body of Christ.” (Pope John Paul II, Radio Message for Franciscan Vigil in St. Peter’s and Assisi, October 3, 1981, L’Osservatore Romano, October 12, 1981.)
why vs? There is no contradiction.
 
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Mickey:
I am sad that you had bad experiences while a member of the Catholic Church but I am happy that you have Christ in your life and in your heart. I truly pray that you hold no lasting animosity against the Church. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

May the peace and love of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ be with you always.
img493.imageshack.us/img493/2980/3barcross1io.gif

Peace,
Mickey
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Thank you, brother.

My ill fealings toward the church are long gone.
May the peace and love of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ be with you always.
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And also with you.

I just noticed in your profile you are Byzantine Catholic. Which church are you a member of? I attended the Melkite Cathedral several times last year. I love the Eastern Liturgy.

Mel
 
Here is what your first Pope said as he preached to the jews. Peter told them if they wanted to be saved,they must do three things. #1.Repent of your sins and convert.#2 Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.#3.Be baptised. Is there any reason that it should be different today? :confused: God Bless
 
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barsapp:
also JP II:
“The mystery of salvation is revealed to us and is continued and accomplished in the Church…and from this genuine and single source, like ‘humble, useful, precious and chaste’ water, it reaches the whole world. Dear young people and members of the faithful, like Brother Francis we have to be conscious and absorb this fundamental and revealed truth, consecrated by tradition: ‘There is no salvation outside the Church.’ From her alone there flows surely and fully the life-giving force destined in Christ and in His Spirit, to renew the whole of humanity, and therefore directing every human being to become a part of the Mystical Body of Christ.” (Pope John Paul II, Radio Message for Franciscan Vigil in St. Peter’s and Assisi, October 3, 1981, L’Osservatore Romano, October 12, 1981.)
why vs? There is no contradiction.
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Hello barsapp,

We know that Abraham is in heaven through Jesus. God made a covenant with the Jews that those who love Him with all their hearts will live (through Jesus). Was God lying? Was it a false promise from God to the Israelites due to Popes stating "No Salvation outside the (Catholic) Church?

I have heard Catholics claim that Old Testament Jews must accept Catholic baptism after death in order to go to heaven. Funny, God never mentioned this stipulation when He gave His sworn Word, His covenant with the Jews, His offer of eternal life through Jesus to Old Testament Jews who love Him.

NAB MAR 12:18

Then some **Sadducees who hold there is no resurrection **came to him with a question …\…12:24 Jesus said: “You are badly misled, because you fail to understand the Scriptures or the power of God. When people rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but live like angels in heaven. As to the raising of the dead, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob’? He is the God of the living not of the dead, You are very much mistaken.” NAB LUK 13:28

And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves cast out.

**NAB ISA 53:4 **(Isaiah to the Israelites.)

Who would believe what we have heard? To whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? He grew up like a sapling before him, like a shoot from the parched earth; There was in him no stately bearing to make us look at him, nor appearance that would attract us to him. He was spurned and avoided by men, a man of suffering, accustomed to infirmity, One of those from whom men hide their faces, spurned, and we held him in no esteem.

Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured, While we thought of him as stricken, as one smitten by God and afflicted. But he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins, Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole, by his stripes we were healed. We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all.

NAB DEU 30:15 The Choice before Israel.

“Here then, I have today set before you life and prosperity, death and doom. If you obey the commandments of the LORD, your God, which I enjoin on you today, loving him, and walking in his ways, and keeping his commandments, statutes and decrees, you will live and grow numerous, and the LORD, your God, will bless you in the land you are entering to occupy.” NAB SIR 15:11 Man’s Free Will.

Say not: “It was God’s doing that I fell away”; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: “It was he who set me astray”; for he has no need of wicked man. Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.
 
Melchior

Assuming we know the future and can read the heart of a person. Assuming there is no death bed conversion.

If a person is presented the gospel, actually hears it, understands who Christ is, and still knowingly rejects Christ, he will go to hell.

But since we cannot ever know all of these things, that is why most Catholics will never be comfortable saying this.

Conversely, since we cannot know the future state of our hearts, most Catholics will only say they hope for heaven even though they believe they know whether or not they are walking in a state of Grace right now.

You are trying to force Protestant language and culture onto Catholics.

But more importantly, why should your mom encourage you back to the Catholic Church? Because you are placing your soul in danger. Did you understand what you left? Probably not, but I would not wish my soul to be hanging on whether or not invincible ignorance applies or not.

And like it or not, believe it or not, you yourself are in the same position that you believe those who have been presented the gospel are. You have left the Church established by Christ. Your soul is in danger of hell. Is that plain speaking enough? (See even here I can’t say you are going to hell because I don’t know what was in your heart was, but the possibility is too large to ignore.)

:bible1: Colossians 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent.

Christ is the Church. By rejecting the Church that he founded, some would say you have rejected Christ because Christ is the Church. Did you know you were rejecting Christ? Does invincible ignorance apply? Is being here on these forums enough to lose your invincible ignorance, if you ever had it? Is telling you that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church, that you must become Catholic because I have told you the truth, enough?

Tread lightly my friend. And look into the teaching of the Catholic Church.

And please, take these as they are meant. In all honesty, I fear for your immortal soul. Leaving His Church has placed you in serious jeopardy.

God Bless,
Maria
 
Steven Merten:
Hello barsapp,
We know that Abraham is in heaven through Jesus. God made a covenant with the Jews that those who love Him with all their hearts will live (through Jesus). Was God lying? Was it a false promise from God to the Israelites due to Popes stating "No Salvation outside the (Catholic) Church?
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“Abraham is in heaven through Jesus” What’s the point here? Abraham lived BEFORE Christ.
“God made a covenant with the Jews”. That covenant ended with Jesus.
“Let his blood be on us and on our children!”
 
barsapp said:
“Abraham is in heaven through Jesus” What’s the point here? Abraham lived BEFORE Christ.
“God made a covenant with the Jews”. That covenant ended with Jesus.
“Let his blood be on us and on our children!”
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Hello barsapp,

Which are you saying? That Jesus words telling us that Abraham is in heaven is a lie or that there is a way into heaven for Abraham outside of Jesus death?

Abraham was certianly not a baptized Catholic. Abraham’s salvation is proof that there is salvation outside the Catholic Church. This should be clarified when anyone states, "No Salvation outside the (Catholic) Church.
 
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MariaG:
Assuming we know the future and can read the heart of a person. Assuming there is no death bed conversion.

If a person is presented the gospel, actually hears it, and still knowingly rejects Christ, he will go to hell.

But since we cannot ever know all of these things, that is why most Catholics will never be comfortable saying this.

Conversely, since we cannot know the future state of our hearts, most Catholics will only say they hope for heaven even though they believe they know whether or not they are walking in a state of Grace right now.

You are trying to force Protestant language and culture onto Catholics.

But more importantly, why should your mom encourage you back to the Catholic Church? Because you are placing your soul in danger. Did you understand what you left? Probably not, but I would not wish my soul to be hanging on whether or not invincible ignorance applies or not.

And like it or not, believe it or not, you yourself are in the same position that you believe those who have been presented the gospel are. You have left the Church established by Christ. Your soul is in danger of hell. Is that plain speaking enough? (See even here I can’t say you are going to hell because I don’t know what was in your heart was, but the possibility is too large to ignore.)

:bible1: Colossians 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent.

Christ is the Church. By rejecting the Church that he founded, some would say you have rejected Christ because Christ is the Church. Did you know you were rejecting Christ? Does invincible ignorance apply? Is being here on these forums enough to lose your invincible ignorance, if you ever had it? Is telling you that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church, that you must become Catholic because I have told you the truth, enough?

Tread lightly my friend. And look into the teaching of the Catholic Church.

And please, take these as they are meant. In all honesty, I fear for your immortal soul. Leaving His Church has placed you in serious jeopardy.

God Bless,
Maria
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Yes Maria. It is a hard teaching. A teaching that is difficult to accept, especially from one who has left the Catholic Church. But Jesus also had hard teachings. Many of his disciples walked away and followed Him no more when He said: For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.

God Bless,
Mickey
 
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