You don't need to believe in Christ to be saved?

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barsapp:
well, i’m not saying that you persecute the church. It was only a quote in order to show you that Christ and the Church are indeed the same. And the sum of all salvation and truth is the Holy Catholic Church. Study, understand, read, try to leave behind personal unhappy experience.
Woops. Sorry, I know you were not saying that - I was just trying to show the limits of the passage in the context of the discussion.

Thanks for your encouragement. The happy experiences are ancient history to me. I just want to do right by my family. Pray that I will.

Mel
 
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barsapp:
i pretty understand your point. i’m only saying that the Jews are not ANYMORE the Chosen People as they were in the Old Testament. That relationship/preference ended forever. If you want to say that the covenant with the Jews ENDED because it was FULFILLED, it’s OK. The New Chosen People, the Only Holy New Ark of Salvation is the Catholic Church. Jews are outside. And they are going to be outside until they recognize Christ as the Son of God.
See my last post to you, #99.
There is no salvation in the Old Testament if you don’t recognize Christ as the Son of God.
That doesn’t make any sense, you know. 😉 Do you mean that only those Jews who were looking forward to Christ were saved? I’m not so sure they had to know what we know about the Messiah in the OT as we do. That would be asking too much of them or anyone living before the Incarnation. But, we do know the righteous were saved because their righteousness was credited to them as acts of faith, as St. Paul tells us.
 
Maria,
Respectfully, I disagree. As a revert to the Catholic faith, there is a different language, if you will spoken in protestant churches than in Catholic. As well as there is a definite difference.
If you are talking about non-Sacramental, baptistic Evangelicals you are right. But I have not been one of those for a while. I am Anglo-Catholic and as such I think and speak in much more catholic language than protestant.
The point is just as readily as you assert that just presenting the gospel means a person has heard and therefore is going to hell, is very similar to your situation. You say those have heard the gospel, but then have rejected it. Much as you reject the Catholic position that those who leave the Catholic Church place their soul in immortal danger. Unbelief? You have rejected the teaching of the Catholic Church. What part of the teaching of Christ as present in the Catholic Church is safe not to believe in?
The teaching that says unbelievers cna be saved by being good. 😉
There are many different ways that Christ and the Church have been described. The Scripture I quoted said Christ is the head of the body… The body of Christ is the Church. Is the Church just a vague invisible church or a visible one?
Visible
And for the record, I am not convinced that you are not in the Church either. I just am telling you that according to the teachings of the Catholic Church as understood through Scripture and the Magesterium, your soul is in danger by not being part of the visible Catholic Church.
Fair enough. I did not mean to bite your head off. It just loooked so tastey. 😃
As someone who also left at age 15, I completely understand where you are coming from. And the priest will have much to answer for.

And what I learned while with my protestant brothers and sisters in Christ, I would not trade. I learned so much from them.
But respectfully, you are no longer 15.
True, but I am a dad know who wants my kids to go through life faithful. Being an evangelical in High School saved me alot of heartache that none of my catholics friends were able to avoid. It was my faith in Christ that kept me from the sex and drugs (though not the rock n roll). It was the support I had from other committed Christian kids that made the difference. Not that I have not committed grave sins in my life, I certainly have but there was a lifestyle difference between us Evangelical kids and all the catholic kids. There was and is simply no such type of support for catholic kids in my area at least. The rality is catholic kids do not do well against the culture compared to evangelical kids.
But as I said before, you are no longer 15. You are an adult now and maybe you need to seek Christ in the Eucharist now.
I do! My priest is ordained in the valid succession. He confects the eucharist each sunday and gives it to me - body and blood!
I pray not. I truly do. But we also know that there will be those who say “Lord, Lord” but He will not know them. I pray for those who like me, left the Catholic Church and ask God for mercy upon them for they “know not what they do”.
It is a certaintly. Scripture says all who hope in Him **will not ** be put to shame. But I do cherish your prayers. I have not ruled Rome out.

God bless you too,

Mel
 
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Della:
It doesn’t matter what any Rabbi might say who Jesus is if that Rabbi has been taught all his life that Jesus was an impostor who started a false sect that was adopted by Gentiles to the ruin of the Jewish people, which is what he no doubt thinks. That is hardly rejecting Christ with full knowledge and consent. I don’t need to “justify” anyone to you or anyone else, including myself. What each person knew and was capable of acting upon is for God to judge. And, there is a big difference between something being fulfilled and being ended. When a man and woman get married their engagement has been fulfilled but their relationship is hardly ended, nor any familial relationships they might have. The Jews are Jesus’ people. Let us leave to Jesus what is to become of them who are unable to see who he is and what he accomplished for them as much as for any of us.
“It doesn’t matter what any Rabbi might say who Jesus is”
It really matters! Do you remember Matthew 16, 13: “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” The answer REALLY matters!. And this Rabbi who “has been taught all his life that Jesus was an impostor” would be also, among other failures, a complete inept expounder of the OT.
“When a man and woman get married their engagement has been fulfilled but their relationship is hardly ended”, unless the man kills the woman…
“The Jews are Jesus’ people”. Not at all. Not anymore. It is impossible to demonstrate that.
“Let us leave to Jesus what is to become of them who are unable to see who he is”. Jesus does not want that. The Church has a mission given by Christ: to baptize and convert all of them. Otherwise, they condemn.
 
barsapp said:
“It doesn’t matter what any Rabbi might say who Jesus is”
It really matters! Do you remember Matthew 16, 13: “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” The answer REALLY matters!. And this Rabbi who “has been taught all his life that Jesus was an impostor” would be also, among other failures, a complete inept expounder of the OT.
“When a man and woman get married their engagement has been fulfilled but their relationship is hardly ended”, unless the man kills the woman…
“The Jews are Jesus’ people”. Not at all. Not anymore. It is impossible to demonstrate that.
“Let us leave to Jesus what is to become of them who are unable to see who he is”. Jesus does not want that. The Church has a mission given by Christ: to baptize and convert all of them. Otherwise, they condemn.

I don’t understand why you have to have all the Jews condemned in order to believe in the mercy of Christ. I very much disagree that you have the right to condemn people to hell for their ignorance, their fears, their inability to “expound the OT” with a Christian understanding.

If by your rant you mean that we are to evangelize all people, Jew and Gentile alike, I completely agree with you, but if you mean that everyone except those with the brains to understand and the good sense to believe will be saved, that is where we part. Can the infant know and understand sufficiently to deliberately reject, with full knowledge and consent of his will? Or the mentally retarded or the person in a coma or those who have been lied to all their lives about who Christ is?

God does not hold people accountable for what they didn’t know or what was too hard for them to accept when they were kept from the truth learning the truth all their lives by means mental and emotional coercion. Only those who knowingly and willingly rejected Christ and his Church, and those who have grave sins on their souls which they knew to be wrong and who committed them anyway, will be damned. Read the WHOLE of the Bible to see that what the Church teaches on this subject is the TRUTH.
 
I believe that there is one perfect God who creates everything and that everything is good except for man who is very good. I believe that God creates no one to fuel the fires of Hell. I believe that all people have a path by which they can enter Heaven. I believe that we are not called to convert,(do not confuse conversion with the evangelixation process of walking and talking the Faith), anyone or to judge anyone one or thing, but only to love one another as I have loved you. I believe that salvation for all has entered the world through the Catholic Church. This is not the same as to say that all Catholics go to Heaven any more than it is right to say that all non-catholics go to Hell. I believe that it is not the label on the outside but the heart on the inside that chooses or rejects Christ’s proffered Salvation. I rely on St. Paul’s encouragement of non-christians on their erecting of a statue to the ‘unknown God’ which he interpreted as his God, the one True God. I believe that if it were up to mankind, none of us would go to Heaven. I believe that God creates a way where there is no way.
I believe that the Jews were and continue to be God’s Chosen People. I believe, as scripture says,(Para-phrased perhaps),“Can I give the food of the Children to others?” To which came the reply,“Even the dogs get the scraps from the master’s table.” I believe this to mean that if the Jews had not rejected the Word of God, the food by which we live, God could not feed me, a non-Jew, on their food. God be praised for His Mercy. In case my comments might be misunderstood, Yes there is a HELL. Yes we will, I believe find people of every race and creed there as well as angels who ‘untie’ the knots of the net God has spread over the abyss with there own hands that they might escape God’s Love.
HELL = Heavens Eternal Love Lost
 
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Della:
I don’t understand why you have to have all the Jews condemned in order to believe in the mercy of Christ. Can the infant know and understand sufficiently to deliberately reject, with full knowledge and consent of his will? Or the mentally retarded or the person in a coma or those who have been lied to all their lives about who Christ is?
dear della: be fair. Have i compared mentally retarded to the Jews shouting full of hatred “Let his blood be on us and on our children!”?
You know that the Jews who condemned Jesus were the most instructed and wise. There is no ignorance here. There is no possible excuse. Jesus explained the Scriptures to them. You know the answer:
Luke 4, 28-30: “When the people in the synagogue heard this, they were all filled with fury. They rose up, drove him out of the town, and led him to the brow of the hill on which their town had been built, to hurl him down headlong. But he passed through the midst of them and went away.”
Why do you not accept the Council of Florence? Why do you want to show the Jews as friends of Christ when it was the opposite? Do you think that the great evil in the world, this great apostasy, this darkness, is because of “ignorance”?
I simply say: They knew full well that what they were doing was wrong. They choose hell. God will not force they to do otherwise.
Is it so hard to understand evil? mysterium iniquitatis… may the Lord give us this understanding…
 
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barsapp:
i pretty understand your point. i’m only saying that the Jews are not ANYMORE the Chosen People as they were in the Old Testament. That relationship/preference ended forever. If you want to say that the covenant with the Jews ENDED because it was FULFILLED, it’s OK. The New Chosen People, the Only Holy New Ark of Salvation is the Catholic Church. Jews are outside. And they are going to be outside until they recognize Christ as the Son of God. There is no salvation in the Old Testament if you don’t recognize Christ as the Son of God.
Hello barsapp,

I said nothing like this. Jesus fulfilled the law for Christians as well as Jews. Does this mean that the Catholic Church is now ended?

If you do not like what I say, what do you think of Pope John Paul II statement? Pagans sincerly devoted to their pagan religion and following the dictates of their pagan religion, in doing so will go to heaven through Jesus? I would think you would have more to say about a Pope saying something which certianly puts a whole new dimention to the old Catholic “No salvation outside the Church”? What do you think of Pope John Paul II’s words to pagans, Jews and Protestants? Do you believe this was Pope Eugene’s message? I think his statement more resembles “universalism” than the Catholic doctrine “No salvation outside the Chruch”.

Pope John Paul II stated, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ"
 
I re- post 106 with changes as my dial-up experienced problems and did not allow my editing 106 within the 20 minute time limit.

Re-Post Begins
I believe that there is one perfect God who does not make mistakes. I believe in one Perfect and Loving God who creates everything and that everything is good except for man who is very good. I believe that God creates no one to fuel the fires of Hell. I believe that all people have a path by which they can enter Heaven. I believe that we are not called to convert anyone, (do not confuse conversion, which is done by God alone as only He can change hearts, with the evangelization process of walking and talking the Faith), anyone or to judge anyone or thing, but only to love one another as I have loved you. I believe that salvation for all has entered the world through the Catholic Church. This is not the same as to say that all Catholics go to Heaven any more than it is right to say that all non-catholics go to Hell. I believe that it is not the label on the outside but the heart on the inside that chooses or rejects Christ’s proffered Salvation. I rely on St. Paul’s encouragement of non-christians on their erecting of a statue to the ‘unknown God’ which he interpreted as his God, the one True God. I believe that if it were up to mankind, none of us would go to Heaven. I believe that God creates a way where there is no way.
I believe that the Jews were and continue to be God’s Chosen People. I believe, as scripture says,(Para-phrased perhaps),“Can I give the food of the Children to others?” To which came the reply,“Even the dogs get the scraps from the master’s table.” I believe this to mean that if the Jews had not rejected the Word of God, the food by which we live, God could not feed me, a non-Jew, on their food. God be praised for His Mercy! In case my comments might be misunderstood, Yes there is a HELL. Yes we will, I believe find people of every race and creed there as well as angels who ‘untie’ the knots of the net God has spread over the abyss with their own hands that they might escape God’s Love. I believe that there are many who knew Jesus and believed in Jesus in Hell for it is not by belief but by our willingness to accept and demonstrate our acceptance of His Salvation and love by joining our own sacrifices of love for Love to Love’s sacrifice of Love. In short Faith and Good Works.
HELL = Heavens Eternal Love Lost
 
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Melchior:
Bob,

Honestly, I have been wrestling with it for sometime now. I have children to consider and I am frankly very concerned about their souls in the Catholic church. What I mean is, we are in a church where everyone is committed to Christ. My children are surrounded by people who have Christ as the center of their lives and it shows. The teaching from the pulpit is superior in everyway to any RC homily I have ever heard and it is very catholic. We are not run of the mill Evangelicals. I believe in the real presence etc. I am a catholic in belief, ourt church is eucharistic and liturgical. But in Boston it seems to me that if you want devout Christian kids, they need to be around other devout Christian kids and families. That is simply not a reality in Catholic Churches around here. If I want to have godly Christian friends how am I supposed to meet them in a Catholic Church. People don’t talk or get to know each other after the Mass. No one asks if you need prayer. The opposite may be the reality elsewhere, but not here.

In other words I know what being a catholic kid is like. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy let alone my own children.

If I am in jeopardy for leaving Rome, my children were never in in Rome. Even at their young ages they have such a real, vibrant relationship with Christ and are in a wonderful church. Do I risk their souls by taking them from this? Better for me to lose my soul (God forbid) than for me to jeopardize my childrens faith and thus their souls.

There is my concern in the unfilterered raw. All that said I am closer to considering “coming home” than I ever have been.

Mel
Mel l, I was a Catholic kid and it was a joyful experience. And bot of my Church’s (I split my time between Coloraod and texas give the same kind of expereicne you have in your Church with the added advantage of having the real preence! I get to hold the Lord in my hand every Morning! AWESOME!!!

I know it must be tough in Boston given their betrayal of our Church BUT I have never let a Priest or Bishop turn me off my Church(I have been blessed, however, for the most part with good Priests and Bishops). I look at the Church as a marvelous gift for you to give to your children. We need believers like you in the Church-those who have left over real slights and mistreatment but are drawn back by the basic, joyful Truths the Church offers. Truths that can not be forever obscured by sinful Priests and lethargic Bishops. In addition I think you would be a invaluable asset to any Chrucchss RCIA program

I have found great comfort in using the Cathecism as my source whenever I hear a Catholic or a member of the clergy say somethig that just doeant seem right. You can find it at scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

I will be praying for your return!
 
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Melchior:
Fair enough. I did not mean to bite your head off. It just loooked so tastey. 😃
:rotfl:

I will just end with I do understand your concerns especially when it comes to children. That is part of the reason I now do the youth group at my Church. I completely pray for someone better to come along, there is so much that could be done better. On the otherhand, through God’s Grace, our small parish just sent 6 kids to the National Catholic Youth Conference. And we are planning a mission trip to Mexico this coming summer.

Maybe that is what God needs you to do, get a program going for Catholic youth.:eek:

Uh oh. Now I’ve probably really scared you away!😉

May God Bless you and keep you,
Maria
 
I will just end with I do understand your concerns especially when it comes to children. That is part of the reason I now do the youth group at my Church. I completely pray for someone better to come along, there is so much that could be done better. On the otherhand, through God’s Grace, our small parish just sent 6 kids to the National Catholic Youth Conference. And we are planning a mission trip to Mexico this coming summer.

Maybe that is what God needs you to do, get a program going for Catholic youth.:eek:

Uh oh. Now I’ve probably really scared you away!😉

May God Bless you and keep you,
Maria
[/quote]

Well I got him in teaching RCIA and you got him in the youth group-he going to busy when he comes home!http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
originally posted by Melchior
The teaching that says unbelievers cna be saved by being good. 😉
Okay, I couldn’t leave this one. It does not say people who do not know Christ can be saved by being good.

It would be best described like this, a person who through no fault of their own had not heard the gospel, if they follow that which God writes on the heart of every man, they can be saved.

God Bless,
Maria
 
This has been an interesting discussion – thank you to all those participating.

Here are some things that crossed my mind as I read through peoples’ posts:

“Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do” – Jesus while hanging on the cross. Why is there any question of whether or not the Jews are forgiven for Jesus’ suffering and death?

Parable of the Judgement of the Nations (Matt 23:31-46) – It is interesting that at least some of the sheep didn’t even realize that they were serving Jesus. They entered into life eternal because they loved the hungry, thirsty, homeless, sick and imprisoned. Could this apply to non-Christians as well as professed believers?

It was stated that rejecting Christ requires “unbelief”, because He will not lose any who believe in Him. Have you examined the Bible to see what the Biblical opposite of “belief” really is? It’s disobedience. See Luke 12 for example. The servant was thrown in with the unbelievers when he disobeyed his master’s will (only the one who knew his master’s will, and disobeyed). Also see Luke 8:13, John 6:29 (belief is work), John 8:31, John 14:12, and others.

Peace,
javelin
 
In the end, it’s a “Pass” or “Fail” system. Jesus, the Judge, has said He would make a determination on each person… each soul.

Only Jesus, the Judge, can look into the soul and heart of each person and decide: Pass or Fail.

However, one other can look into the soul and heart of each person and decide: Pass or Fail. And that is the person himself or herself.

The Church teaches that the fullness of faith is found only in the Catholic Church. If a person has rejected the Catholic Church for some fatuous reason: sexually corrupt priests, for example, then when that person reaches his or her judgment, well, I don’t know what Jesus, the Judge, will decide… but it is possible that the Judge will grimace, shake His head, clench His lips and teeth and say, “Sorry, Charlie.” And down you go.

On the other hand, what if that same person was observed just prior to death, to be minding his own business, walking down the street, and sees, for example, a young girl being abducted into a van. The person drops his (or her) bundles and chases after the van… jumps on the back bumper… hangs on with fingertips to the door hinge… and calls and yells for the police. Say, the police arrive and rescue the girl and arrest the kidnappers. BUT, in the course of the event the person on the back bumper falls and strikes the pavement, and is killed instantly.

Then, what does Jesus the Judge decide?

[That was an actual case, by the way… the person’s father said that he believed the person’s only and sole reason for existence was to be available to effect that rescue. I heard his words when the father was being interviewed.]

Jesus, the Teacher/Judge, also spoke of a Wedding Feast, in which everyone was invited, but one had no wedding garment and was therefore thrown out into the night to be eaten by the wild animals and there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

And if we are Catholics, and we believe that the fullness of faith is found in the Catholic Church, and we do nothing to spread the word, the faith … then where are WE?

Without hearing the fullness of faith, how will non-Catholics or “apostate Catholics” recognize what they may be missing and, as sheep among the rocky cliffs, be rescued?

How will WE be judged?

Fulton J. Sheen, the famous radio and television preacher, and priest and bishop and archbishop, said he expected that in heaven there would be three surprises. That there would be people there that he NEVER expected to see there. That there would be people absent who he had been absolutely certain WOULD be there, but weren’t. And, third, he would be surprised that he was there.

So, why would such a famous priest believe that he might not be there? What did he see inside his own heart?
 
Hey Mel,
I cannot personally relate to your situation, but i have heard about it. I was blessed in the fact that I grew up in a great Catholic community. You had mentioned the Catholics in your area as not being good Christians. It is different in my area. I would say that it is the other way around here. Many Baptists and non-Denominationalists I know do not preach or try and live the Gospel. The Catholics here, on the other hand, are on fire for God. I guess it all depends on where you grow up. I do not see Protestant churches as “other Churches”, but as brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.
Jews, and other non-Christians, on the other hand, are left to the Judgment of God. I do not feel, personally, that they can be accepted in Heaven if they denied Jesus in this life; but I will never judge on this topic. Only God can judge. Father Benny G., has always been overzealous in wanting to not be a biggot. I feel that his statement is purly his own opinion, and not the Gospel, (or even Catholic) truth.
No matter where you in Christ’s body you are called to, Catholic or other, I am certain from your comments that you love Jesus. In the end, He is our source for Hope.
God bless. -Mario
 
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