You don't need to believe in Christ to be saved?

[quasimodo]

How can someone be saved who does not believe in Jesus? Read the words of Jesus Himself: Matthew 25: 31ff.

Nonr of the sheep saw Christ in the poor, thirsty, imprisoned, hungry, etc. Any Christian alive would recognize Christ in the face of those in need or know the teaching that “whatever you do for the least of my brothers, you do for me.” Not one of the sheep said, “yes, Jesus, I did it for you.” They all said “huh?” just like the goats.

They are saved because they “put on Christ” even if they did not know they were doing it.

Just because a person has heard of Christ does not mean that they have the freedom to accept Him. A Jew for instance may not be free if they were abused by “Christians” or if their parents drilled it into their head that it was those “Christians” who brought us the holocaust. One must be free to love. One must be free to make a decision of love for Christ, which is what Christianity demands. A moslem is not free - they face death for converting. But, apparently, they can respond unconsciously to the grace that God gives them as the sheep did in Matthew 25.

 

[javelin]

inJESUS:

Javelin, would you please tell me what you think of this passage? we have words mimits in this site so i cannot explain it fully…but in summary it is Jesus warning about being unprepared…
As i stated before, Christians believe that their salvation is guaranteed by Jesus…those who do not believe/follow Jesus do not have guarantees …do you agree? Jesus came to all mankind to save it, those who follow him are saved, those who dont are not sure…

if not, just tell me what you believe in? that everyone is saved without believing in Jesus? everyone is saved even if they dont believe God’s plan for salvation? God is good, but he is just as well…he did all this to save you, and gave you free-will to chose, if you are ungrateful and do not believe him why should he force you to be with him when you die if you already refused his salvation?

I certainly don’t believe that everyone is saved without believeing in Jesus. Have you read my previous posts in this discussion?!?

What I think Luke 12 clearly marks is a distinction between those who know the master’s will and act worthy of punishment and those who do not know the master’s will and act worthy of punishment.

Both are chastised (beaten), but it is only the one who deliberately disobeyed the Master who was “thrown out with the unbelievers” when the Master returned.

The implication is that those who break the Master’s will unknowingly will not necessarily be cast into Hell with the unbelievers.

That is essentially what the Church teaches – even those who do not know Jesus by name, by following the Master’s Law that He has written on their hearts, may enter into eternal salvation (most likely with much time in purgatory first). God will not hold them ultimately accountable (as in, culpable unto death) for what they do not know. They must still receive a chastisement, however, as “nothing unclean can enter Heaven”.

Your statement that Christians are “assured salvation” is completely contrary to Catholic teaching, BTW. It is, however, a mainstay of protestantism, which is another reason you “sound” protestant to me. No one is assured salvation, as it is a free gift of God. We certainly live in hope, but not assurance.

Peace,
javelin

 

[inJESUS]

javelin:

I certainly don’t believe that everyone is saved without believeing in Jesus. Have you read my previous posts in this discussion?!?

What I think Luke 12 clearly marks is a distinction between those who know the master’s will and act worthy of punishment and those who do not know the master’s will and act worthy of punishment.

Both are chastised (beaten), but it is only the one who deliberately disobeyed the Master who was “thrown out with the unbelievers” when the Master returned.

The implication is that those who break the Master’s will unknowingly will not necessarily be cast into Hell with the unbelievers.

That is essentially what the Church teaches – even those who do not know Jesus by name, by following the Master’s Law that He has written on their hearts, may enter into eternal salvation (most likely with much time in purgatory first). God will not hold them ultimately accountable (as in, culpable unto death) for what they do not know. They must still receive a chastisement, however, as “nothing unclean can enter Heaven”.

Your statement that Christians are “assured salvation” is completely contrary to Catholic teaching, BTW. It is, however, a mainstay of protestantism, which is another reason you “sound” protestant to me. No one is assured salvation, as it is a free gift of God. We certainly live in hope, but not assurance.

Peace,
javelin

i agree with almost everything you said.good so we agree that not everyone is saved without Jesus…and i agree that those who do not know Jesus might be saved as well …its up to God…
.only 2 points :
it is a catholic preast who told me that salvation is sure…all the catholic priests on my TV say this… if he/they are wrong, would you please give me a catholic site that states otherwise?
of course it is a free gift, thats why anyone can have it if they believe in Jesus as the bible says…so if christians believe in this free gift of salvation, why shouldnt they be sure?

2- as i already said, some catholics think that if someone applies Jesus’ teachings without ever knowing who Jesus is or what his yeachings are, he is saved…but i personally believe that no one can know all Jesus’ teachings if he doesnt know him…am not with this first group catholics but with the second group that says that you cannot apply Jesus’ teachings if you didn’t know him…thats again MY personal opinion…i might be wrong…even catholics do not agree fully about these things coz they are all trying to know what God might do.

 

[inJESUS]

you said:
Is it really that simple? Why would Jesus’ sacrifice have been in vain if people can be saved without formally accepting Him? Could it be that your (or my) understanding of what Jesus did on the cross is a bit off? If all it takes is trust in Jesus, why did He even need to suffer and die?

so i thought you think people can be saved without accepting him.

it seems am wrong. Sorry

 

[barsapp]

estesbob:

He path to salvation excludes about 2/3s of the people living today and over 90% of those who lived before us.

Matt 7, 13-14: “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few."

 

[barsapp]

quasimodo:

A Jew for instance may not be free if they were abused by “Christians” or if their parents drilled it into their head that it was those “Christians” who brought us the holocaust.

From where comes the need to justify the ones who killed Jesus and shouted “Let his blood be on us and on our children!”?

 

[Melchior]

barsapp:

From where comes the need to justify the ones who killed Jesus and shouted “Let his blood be on us and on our children!”?

Was that all Jews who shouted that? What of the Apostles and Christ Himself? Peter and Paul were Jews and the Jesus, being fully man, is fully a Jew.

Gotta be careful with these verses. The church was established with and by Jews. That is what makes Jews rejection of Him doubly sad. But not all Jews rejected Him.

But I don’t think it is accurate to say the Jews killed Jesus. Technically the Romans did. But in reality WE did. He died for the sins of Jews and Gentiles. I take responsibility for Christ death - not as a Jew (which I am) but as a sinner whom He dided to save.

Mel

 

[javelin]

inJESUS:

i agree with almost everything you said.good so we agree that not everyone is saved without Jesus…and i agree that those who do not know Jesus might be saved as well …its up to God…
.only 2 points :
it is a catholic preast who told me that salvation is sure…all the catholic priests on my TV say this… if he/they are wrong, would you please give me a catholic site that states otherwise?
of course it is a free gift, thats why anyone can have it if they believe in Jesus as the bible says…so if christians believe in this free gift of salvation, why shouldnt they be sure?

I am sorry, but either the priest you spoke with was mistaken, or your understanding of what he said is mistaken.

We are not assured salvation precisely because we have free will. When we become children of God, that free will is not taken from us. We can, like the prodigal son, turn away from God at any time to serve ourselves and live in sin. Only when we return to God seeking forgiveness is our inheritance restored (the ring placed back on our finger). The Church teaches that the act of renouncing God for self and sin is called “mortal sin”. “Mortal” because it is deadly to the soul.

Proponents of true “assured salvation”, or “Once Saved Always Saved” (OSAS) teach that once someone is “saved”, they are guaranteed to go to heaven when they die, even if they renounce their faith and later live in sin. This is not the gospel message, but it sounds pretty good because it teaches that once you are “saved”, your sin becomes irrelevant.

inJESUS:

2- as i already said, some catholics think that if someone applies Jesus’ teachings without ever knowing who Jesus is or what his yeachings are, he is saved…but i personally believe that no one can know all Jesus’ teachings if he doesnt know him…am not with this first group catholics but with the second group that says that you cannot apply Jesus’ teachings if you didn’t know him…thats again MY personal opinion…i might be wrong…even catholics do not agree fully about these things coz they are all trying to know what God might do.

I think one important aspect of the Luke 12 passage quoted above is that it is not necessary to know all of Jesus’ teachings in order to have the hope of salvation. Certainly, those who never knew the Gospel formally (someone taught them or they read the Bible) would have no chance of knowing all that Jesus taught. However, the Bible also says that “I will write my Law upon their hearts”. This is what is often referred to as God’s “Natural Law”. The heart of that law is the golden rule – “Love God, and Love thy neighbor”. It doesn’t take formal knowledge of Christianity to adore your Creator and love your neighbor, and *that *is the law that we’re talking about when we say “if people who do not know Christ by name follow His law to the best of their ability, they may be saved.”

This is the only teaching that seems to satisfy the age-old argument against Christianity that goes something like “Well, what about the person who never hears of Jesus but is a loving servant to all those they meet? Are they doomed to Hell? What about innocent children? Are they, too, doomed?” Most protestant denominations would say that the adult as described is doomed but the child is certainly saved. The Catholic Church has, IMHO, a better answer, and that is we all hope and pray for their salvation, for we know we have a loving and merciful God. In the meantime, we do our best to bring them the full Gospel, that they may truly believe in Jesus’ name.

Peace,
javelin

 

[javelin]

barsapp:

From where comes the need to justify the ones who killed Jesus and shouted “Let his blood be on us and on our children!”?

They are forgiven because Christ himself, in the midst of His Passion, forgave them.

“Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do!”

Peace,
javelin

 

[javelin]

barsapp:

Matt 7, 13-14: “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few."

This does not say that God created people so far from the narrow road that they have no way of ever getting there. Very different to say “they will not find it” than “they can not find it”.

Peace,
javelin

 

[reen12]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/597.htm

reen12

 

[barsapp]

Melchior:

But not all Jews rejected Him.

well, we are talking here about the ones who did it…
"In Jewish writings there is no directly corresponding word for the Christian Cross. The cross T on which those condemned to death were crucified, was called Tau by the Phoenicians and the Hebrews, and this name and sign for it was afterwards taken over into the alphabet of the Jews and of the Greeks and the Romans. The Cross honored by the Christians, however, is called by the following names:

1. Tsurath Haattalui - the image who was hanged.
2. Elil - vanity, idol.
3. Tselem - image. Hence the Crusaders in Jewish books are called Tsalmerim (ein Tsalmer)
4. Scheti Veerebh - warp and woof, which is taken from the textile art.
5. Kokhabh - star; on account of the four rays emanating from it.
6. Pesila - a sculpture, a carven idol.
   But whenever it is mentioned it is always in the sense of an idol or of something despicable, as can be seen from the following quotations:
   In Orach Chaiim, 113,8:
   “If a Jew when praying should meet a Christian Akum] carrying a star [a crucifix] in his hand, even if he has come to a place in his prayer where it is necessary to bow down to worship God in his heart, he must not to so lest he should seem to bow down before an image.”
   In Iore Dea, 150,2:
   “Even if a Jew should get a splinter in his foot in front of an idol, or if he should drop his money before it, he must not stoop down to remove the splinter or to gather his money lest he should seem to adore it. But he should either sit down or turn his back or his side to the idol and then remove the splinter.”
   But whenever it is not possible for a Jew to turn away like this, the following rule must be observed (in Iore Dea, 3, Hagah):
   “It is not permitted to bow down or to remove one’s hat before princes or priests who wear a cross on their dress, as is their custom. Care must be taken, however, not to be noticed in failing to do so. For instance, one can throw some coins on the ground and stoop down to pick them up before they pass by. In this way it is permitted to bow down or to remove one’s hat before them.” A distinction is also made between a cross which is venerated and a cross which is worn around the neck as a souvenir or as an ornament. The former is to be regarded as an idol, but not necessarily the latter. In Iore Dea, 141, 1, Hagah, it says:
   “The image of a cross, before which they bow down, is to be treated as an idol, and it is not to be used until it is destroyed. However, a ‘warp and woof’ if hung around the neck as a souvenir is not to be regarded as an idol and can be used.”
   The sign of the cross made with the hand, by which Christians are wont to bless themselves, is called in Jewish “the moving of the fingers here and there” (hinc et hinc)."

 

[reen12]

Judaism holds that the “righteous” of all nations,

have a place in the World to Come. Olam Ha-Ba]

What is of interest, I think, is that Judaism wastes

precious little time, thinking about Olam Ha-Ba.

Judaism sees life as a sacred gift, and man’s time better

spent, fulfilling God’s commands - through the

deeds called for in the Torah -

jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

I often mull on this fact - when observing or participating

in - discussions revolving around “who’s saved”?

Just my view, :tiphat:

reen12

 

[inJESUS]

javelin:

I am sorry, but either the priest you spoke with was mistaken, or your understanding of what he said is mistaken.

We are not assured salvation precisely because we have free will. When we become children of God, that free will is not taken from us. We can, like the prodigal son, turn away from God at any time to serve ourselves and live in sin. Only when we return to God seeking forgiveness is our inheritance restored (the ring placed back on our finger). The Church teaches that the act of renouncing God for self and sin is called “mortal sin”. “Mortal” because it is deadly to the soul.

Proponents of true “assured salvation”, or “Once Saved Always Saved” (OSAS) teach that once someone is “saved”, they are guaranteed to go to heaven when they die, even if they renounce their faith and later live in sin. This is not the gospel message, but it sounds pretty good because it teaches that once you are “saved”, your sin becomes irrelevant.

**OHHH now i understand what you mean of course, i agree …you should follow Christ all your life, not whenever you feel like it …faith is important but it should continue and our deeds (fruits) should back it up…i fully agree…i just took it for granted that you understood what i mean by guaranty ( not to anyone born christian but to true christians with Jesus’ Spirit) The priest was right as well coz we didnt discuss “true christian” or not, it was taken for granted…sorry **

I think one important aspect of the Luke 12 passage quoted above is that it is not necessary to know all of Jesus’ teachings in order to have the hope of salvation. Certainly, those who never knew the Gospel formally (someone taught them or they read the Bible) would have no chance of knowing all that Jesus taught. However, the Bible also says that “I will write my Law upon their hearts”. This is what is often referred to as God’s “Natural Law”. The heart of that law is the golden rule – “Love God, and Love thy neighbor”. It doesn’t take formal knowledge of Christianity to adore your Creator and love your neighbor, and *that *is the law that we’re talking about when we say “if people who do not know Christ by name follow His law to the best of their ability, they may be saved.”

thx for the clarification…now i understand it better…but 1 question: if a muslim loves God ( thou his allah is different from our God) and loves his neighbor and all people, yet he marries 4, is he saved in your opnion? i know your not God but just curious about your opinion just to understand things in a better way…

would you please show me how to quote on this site? i mean to quote/comment, quote/comment…

again thx

 

[reen12]

Hi, inJESUS

…would you please show me how to quote on this site? i mean to quote/comment, quote/comment…

If you click the “Help” function, at the top of this page,
select “Help forum” from the drop down menu, then
select a thread, dealing with quote, comment:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=19771

Hope that helps, and I’m glad that you’re posting on the
CAF forums. Welcome!

Best, :tiphat:

reen12

 

[inJESUS]

Hi, inJESUS

hi

If you click the “Help” function, at the top of this page,
select “Help forum” from the drop down menu, then
select a thread, dealing with quote, comment:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=19771

thx for you help

Hope that helps

hehe in fact i know the technique, i post on aother site, but i just couldnt see the “quote” button…on the other site it is written “quote” , here you have to put the mouse and wait for each button to tell you what it is

,

and I’m glad that you’re posting on the
CAF forums. Welcome!

thx

 

[reen12]

thx

:tiphat:

reen12

 

[Al_Masetti]

There is a whole 'Nuther aspect to this issue…

… and that is … the responsibility of each “believing” Christian… to help spread the Word…

There is a parable (sorry, I don’t have the chapter and verse) about a wealthy man who went on a trip but before he left, he distributed some of his wealth to his underlings to re-invest for him.

When he returned he demanded an accounting. Some of his minions did well and some did poorly.

And the moral of the story was to the effect that those who have a lot will get more and those who have little will lose what they have. And the more you get, the more will be expected of you.

(I may be mixing metaphors.)

The POINT however is that the story is about FAITH . FAITH is a gift from God. The more FAITH we are given, the more ACTION that will be demanded of us … AND the more RESULTS that will be demanded of us.

So if someone has never heard of Jesus or has been persecuted for 300 years (as in Japan), well … a different set of standards will apply to that person… keeping in mind that there are a lot of sublties involved. If there is a persecution and we are all lined up and the police demand we stamp on a picture of Jesus… and if we refuse we are pulled out of line and beheaded on the spot… and if we are beheaded, then one standard will apply to us… if we stamp on Jesus, then another set of standards will apply…

If someone has had repeated private revelations which they keep to themslelves… and is devout… and lives their faith, then probably a very strict standard will apply to that person. If someone is mentally ill and suffers terribly, then another standard will apply.

 

[javelin]

inJESUS:

**OHHH now i understand what you mean of course, i agree …you should follow Christ all your life, not whenever you feel like it …faith is important but it should continue and our deeds (fruits) should back it up…i fully agree…i just took it for granted that you understood what i mean by guaranty ( not to anyone born christian but to true christians with Jesus’ Spirit) The priest was right as well coz we didnt discuss “true christian” or not, it was taken for granted…sorry **
Honestly, I’m not sure we’re still exactly on the same page. Just so you understand: the Church believes that even someone who has been born again in Christ through baptism has the free will and capacity for turning away from God and forsaking his inheritance. This includes adult converts who “respond joyfully to the Word at first”, but then find that “the cares of the world choke their faith, and they wither and die” (the parable of the sower and seeds). For all intents and purposes, these people have true faith for a time, only they fail to persevere in faith, as Paul commands, and fall from Grace.

Hypothetically, this can happen to anyone, so we don’t believe that anyone has the assurance of going to Heaven when they pass on.

inJESUS:

thx for the clarification…now i understand it better…but 1 question: if a muslim loves God ( thou his allah is different from our God) and loves his neighbor and all people, yet he marries 4, is he saved in your opnion? i know your not God but just curious about your opinion just to understand things in a better way…

This is a question theologians have speculated on for centuries. Honestly, I have no idea – I could argue it either way. All I can say for sure is that he could be saved, and I pray that is the case. At least Catholic doctrine allows for the possibility of his salvation. I don’t think most protestant denominations would allow for it in their doctrine, which is a shortcoming, in my opinion.

By the way, historically, at least, Allah is Yaweh, as the Muslims believe their faith originated from the same Abraham who is the father of our faith, only from a different “branch” of his family tree. They certainly don’t believe the same things we do about God, but it is plausible that it is actually the same God.

Peace,
javelin

P.S. I appreciate your honest questions and polite participation. Live on in Love!

 

[Kristina_P]

Melchior:

Any Catholics out there disagree with the previous responses? Do all roads lead to Heaven for those who try to be good?

Mel

No, but it isn’t necessary to say that all roads lead to Hell, either. The need for evangelization is obviously still there, but our efforts do not trump God’s sovereignty. He can save whomever He chooses, although the only way of being reasonably secure about your salvation is to follow His revealed plan within the Church. But none of us has any place assuming that another person is in Hell or is Hell-bound, regardless of their religion.