You don't need to believe in Christ to be saved?

[reen12]

Additionally,

quote:12brokEnBonEs

If those who can’t hear the Gospel get a free pass to glory…

“free pass to glory”?

To see God in the Face = a “pass to glory” !! ? :ehh:

If love = to will the good of another “A new commandment
I give you: Love one another, as I have loved you.”],
I should think that a Christian would pray and hope for the salvation
of those who never were gifted - as they were -
to hear of Christ, and have a chance to “accept” Him.

quote: 12brokEnBonEs

If those who can’t hear the Gospel get a free pass to glory, then isn’t spreading the gospel the most unkind thing we could do. Better yet, burn the Bible, destroy the Christians (very few in my estimation) and thereby guarantee salvation for the whole world

May I assume that you are speaking hyperbolically?

This would run counter to the Square of Opposition,
in formal logic:
In some instances:
A does not necessarily imply B.

To say that a person who never heard a missionary
may still be saved, does not imply, logically, that
missionaries should not be dispatched, when
possible.

“free pass to glory”?

reen12

 

[12brokEnBonEs]

Help me here please with my logic re: *"May I assume that you are speaking hyperbolically?

This would run counter to the Square of Opposition,
in formal logic:
In some instances:
A does not necessarily imply B.

To say that a person who never heard a missionary
may still be saved, does not imply, logically, that
missionaries should not be dispatched, when
possible."*

I try to make the query as clear as possible.

If - folks who have not heard the gospel through no fault of their own are saved.

Then - why spread the gospel?

 

[reen12]

Hi, 12brokEnBonEs,

quote: 12brokEnBonEs

I try to make the query as clear as possible.

If - folks who have not heard the gospel through no fault of their own are saved.

Then - why spread the gospel?

I’ll try to re-word what I was saying, in my last post.

What is the gospel? The good news.

When the disciples of John the Baptist asked Christ if He
was the One awaited -so that they could go back and
report to John, who was in prison - Jesus told them:
“Go tell John that the blind see, the lame walk,
and the poor have the good news preached to them.”

He was telling them that the Kingdom of God,
long awaited, was here - because He was here.

Those who never have the good news of Jesus preached
to them, must go thru life without the strength, grace
and comfort, given to those who know Christ and walk
with Him.
To know that Christ said that He conquered death,
can bring enormous relief to mind and heart; to
know that Christ said: “In the world, you will have
many troubles; but, fear not, I have overcome the
world…”
Think of what it would be like, to go thru life, not
knowing these realities, conveyed by Jesus.

Knowing Him is a priviledge of grace given,
not something I “earned.”

If I think only in terms of the moral behavior
demanded of Christians, by Christ, and think
that, somehow, those who never heard of Him
are “getting away with something”…in the sense
of not having to live by such a demanding moral
code - then I think that the point is missed on what
those individuals are missing in the* here and now*.

If God chooses to have mercy on those deprived of
the knowledge of Him and His Son and the Spirit,
then that simply demonstrates His goodness and
mercy.

A Christian who knows what the experience of the
love of Christ is, will want to rush to bring the gospel
to all nations…and, hopefully, will praise God for
His mercy to those who have not yet been offered
the opportunity to become “a new creation”, in Christ.

And the simple reply is: Christ commanded us to
preach to all nations.

I often think that the last chapter of the Book of Jonah,
is of interest, in terms of this general topic, in an
analogous sense.

usccb.org/nab/bible/jonah/jonah4.htm

Does that make more sense?

Best,

reen12

 

[Aaron_I]

12brokEnBonEs:

I try to make the query as clear as possible.

If - folks who have not heard the gospel through no fault of their own are saved.

Then - why spread the gospel?

You’re not understanding the Catholic position. Replace are (I bolded it for you) with “may be.” Does that help you understand it. We are granted actual grace by being in the Church. Also, there are different levels of glory in heaven. Clearly we want as many people to be Catholic for as long as possible, that they may better experience the glory of God in heaven.

Oh, reen12, props on the square of opposition. I love symbolic logic.

 

[reen12]

Hi, Aron I,

quote:

Aaron I.
Oh, reen12, props on the square of opposition. I love symbolic logic.

It’s likely that you have a far more complete understanding
of the principles of logic than I do, for I only took the rudimentary
Logic course!

I have found it more helpful than I can say, over the
intervening 35 years.

Best wishes,

reen12 :tiphat:

If there is any interest: The Square of Opposition
plato.stanford.edu/entries/square/

 

[Mickey]

Philthy:

I saw it also, and I think you left something out. Fr Groeschel said the man was “following what he believed to be the will of God for him in his life - to the best of his abilities”. Christians often do a horrible job of preaching the gospel because they do it almost exclusively with their mouths and often more for their own benefit than that of the intended recipient. This is hardly “hearing the gospel”. Anyhow, I don’t think Fr Groeschel meant to declare him a Saint or anything, just that he felt that the possibility of salvation existed because this man followed God’s will to the best of his ability and that IF in fact he were saved it is still only through the redemptive work of Christ on the Cross.

Phil

Yes, they replayed this show and that is what he said.
Also, how do we know that Jesus doesn’t appear to non-believers at the hour of death so as to give the individual an opportunity to enter the kingdom of heaven at the eleventh hour. God is all merciful.

 

[javelin]

Mickey:

Also, how do we know that Jesus doesn’t appear to non-believers at the hour of death so as to give the individual an opportunity to enter the kingdom of heaven at the eleventh hour. God is all merciful.

Along these lines, isn’t that supposedly what Jesus did when He “descended to hell” when He died? Isn’t the prevailing Catholic teaching that He brought the Gospel to all who perished under the Old Covenant, thus giving them the opportunity to believe in Him and be saved? Isn’t that the idea of “Limbo of the Fathers”?

I would think that it is no worse for anyone who perishes today without formal knowledge of Jesus. It seems logical that they would get the chance to recognize Jesus before judgement.

I also ponder Jesus’ statements about how He will either recognize us or not when we come before Him in judgement. Those He “recognizes” will be saved, while those to whom He says “I do not know you” will be lost. Seems simple on the surface, but it is striking in light of this discussion that He saves whom He recognizes, NOT who recognizes Him. For there will be those who say “Lord, Lord…” who will not be saved.

When we make ourselves known to Him, His Grace saves us. Otherwise, we are lost.

Peace,
javelin

 

[Mickey]

javelin:

Along these lines, isn’t that supposedly what Jesus did when He “descended to hell” when He died? Isn’t the prevailing Catholic teaching that He brought the Gospel to all who perished under the Old Covenant, thus giving them the opportunity to believe in Him and be saved? Isn’t that the idea of “Limbo of the Fathers”?

I would think that it is no worse for anyone who perishes today without formal knowledge of Jesus. It seems logical that they would get the chance to recognize Jesus before judgement.

I also ponder Jesus’ statements about how He will either recognize us or not when we come before Him in judgement. Those He “recognizes” will be saved, while those to whom He says “I do not know you” will be lost. Seems simple on the surface, but it is striking in light of this discussion that He saves whom He recognizes, NOT who recognizes Him. For there will be those who say “Lord, Lord…” who will not be saved.

When we make ourselves known to Him, His Grace saves us. Otherwise, we are lost.

Peace,
javelin

AMEN!
img500.imageshack.us/img500/3214/icnymphios1oz.th.jpg

 

[Melchior]

reen12:

Why is it that the assumption is made that to

be told of Christ, and what the Church holds =

necessary acceptance of same?

As to faith:

quote: reen12 from another thread

newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm

To maintain that knowledge necessarily leads to faith,
is a view that I believe mistaken.

Just my thought,

reen12

But scripture says explicitly “Faith comes through hearing…the Word of God”. That needs to be balanced in. How can one have faith if one has not heard?

 

[inJESUS]

God is Holy, man is sinful…to be admitted in God’s kingdom, we must be holy and sinless…but since this is impossible, God’s love for us revealed itself in his Plan for Salvation that whoever believe in this plan and accept it (Jesus) will not perish but have eternal life with God…in the revelations, Jesus’ second coming will not occur until the Gospel reached all the planet earth, that is, until everyone knows or hears the Gospel…those who accept God’s plan for salvation are saved, others no coz they just rejected their salvation…simple

yes Jesus made known Himself to the dead in the grave but only coz His message was later…THOSE WHO LIVE AFTER JESUS’ MESSAGE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEMSELVES…

Jesus is clear: no one comes to the Father except thru Me…

i dont know how he will judge nonbelievers in Jesus…maybe he will judge them according to their teachings…but this means that they are condemned coz only with Christ you have eteral life…their teachings might focus on good works( islam), but we know NO good works are enough to be in the presence of his Holiness…and Jews believed in their scriptures where it is clear that the salvation and way of life is thru the Messiah yet some rejected it…and the list goes to all others…it is not by our own deeds that ewe are saved but by God’s mercy who sent us already the salvation…those who believe God’s plan are saved…others no…otherwise Jesus’ crucifiction and suffering are in vain if you do not believe him…simple

IN JESUS

GOD BLESS YOU

 

[Mickey]

Melchior:

How can one have faith if one has not heard?

With God, all things are possible.

 

[javelin]

inJESUS:

yes Jesus made known Himself to the dead in the grave but only coz His message was later…THOSE WHO LIVE AFTER JESUS’ MESSAGE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEMSELVES…

May I ask how you reached this conclusion? How do you know that everyone living after Christ is on their own? What about the person who lived in Europe who died one hour after Jesus? Too bad, tough luck? Then there’s that secluded tribe in the jungle…

inJESUS:

Jesus is clear: no one comes to the Father except thru Me…

No one is claiming otherwise. But what do you think He meant by “through Me”? Why are you sure you’re right?

inJESUS:

those who believe God’s plan are saved…others no…otherwise Jesus’ crucifiction and suffering are in vain if you do not believe him…simple

Is it really that simple? Why would Jesus’ sacrifice have been in vain if people can be saved without formally accepting Him? Could it be that your (or my) understanding of what Jesus did on the cross is a bit off? If all it takes is trust in Jesus, why did He even need to suffer and die?

Your profile says you are Catholic, but (no offense) you sound very protestant.

Jesus’ death opened the door, and His Grace paves the way.

Perhaps it’s true and I am wrong, but when God “desires all to be saved”, I have a hard time believing that He would create so many people with virtually no chance (due to their cultural upbringing and personal circumstance) of being saved. That is not the God I worship.

Peace,
javelin

 

[javelin]

Melchior:

But scripture says explicitly “Faith comes through hearing…the Word of God”. That needs to be balanced in. How can one have faith if one has not heard?

This is one thing that opens a very circular reasoning that I have not yet found a good answer for.

If we are saved by grace through faith,
and faith comes through hearing the Word of God,
and faith itself is a gift from God,
and we can do no good except by Grace, then

which comes first?
Faith? – no, for it is a gift that is preceded by hearing the Word of God
Grace? – no, because it can only be received through faith
Hearing the Word? – no, because we could not respond to that without Grace.

Then, if faith is a gift, and faith=justification, and justification=adoption by God, and God does not lose His own, then the gift of faith=eternal salvation. Further, since not all are saved, only some must receive the gift of faith (the “elect”) and are predestined to salvation while all others are lost from day 1, as they are never given the gift of faith.

That is my understanding of the mainline protestant view on this, and it just seems wrong to me. While each individual point has its own merits, when they are all taken together they lead to the wrong conclusion, IMHO.

I think it goes like this:
God offers Grace to all through Jesus Christ, available by His death which conquered sin. This is how it can be said that He desires all to be saved, and all are offered the Grace necessary.
When we respond to that grace by seeking God in love, we are justified (“made right with God”) and receive faith.
Those who do not respond to that Grace by not loving do not receive faith.
Through faith and love, we receive more grace and are sanctified.
If we remain in Him (in a state of Grace), i.e. persevere in faith, until death, we will be united with Him in His resurrection and be saved.

This just makes much more sense to me. It is very simplistic, and probably somewhat incorrect, but it speaks true.

How does it fit in our conversation?

Can people respond to God’s Grace without explicit knowledge of Jesus Christ? I believe they can: “Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do to me”.

Can a person be saved “through” Jesus without explicit knowledge of Him? I believe they can, for it is by His death that Grace was offered them in the first place, and it is their response to that Grace that unites them to Christ and His saving Work. IMHO, to deny that all are offered Grace through Jesus Christ is to deny that all have the chance to be saved.

Should we, who know Jesus by name, simply leave everyone else alone, to see and respond to God’s Grace themselves? NO WAY! Through us, Christ can be more revealed, and our faith can bring Grace upon others, enabling some who may not have had the strength to respond to Christ on their own, turn to Him. That is evangelization, and it is why we are all called to be WITNESSES.

We are to be like Moses, who reminded the Israelites of all the good God did for them while pointing to the ground saying “there is the manna. Take it and eat, and you will live.”

Peace,
javelin

 

[estesbob]

inJESUS:

yes Jesus made known Himself to the dead in the grave but only coz His message was later…THOSE WHO LIVE AFTER JESUS’ MESSAGE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEMSELVES…

Jesus is clear: no one comes to the Father except thru Me…

I think most of us have a different interpreatation of coming to the Father only through Jesus. The statment is true but we disagree about the mechanics.

Per your interpreataion the child who died in the Jungles of Brazil 30 seconds after Jesus Died is condmened to eternal hellfie as is everyone else he knows and everyone who lives in his area for at least the next 1,500 years or so.

The Church teaches that one can know Jesus, live according to his teachings and be saved even if they dont know his name of dont even know he existed.

If this is not true then Christ was a monumantal failure. He path to salvation excludes about 2/3s of the people living today and over 90% of those who lived before us.

 

[reen12]

Hi, Melchior

quote: Melchior

But scripture says explicitly “Faith comes through hearing…the Word of God”. That needs to be balanced in. How can one have faith if one has not heard?

The topic is stated as:
You don’t need to believe in Christ to be saved?

The operative word, here, is “need.” If born into a
culture where Christianity is hardly robust, in its
presence, God may save you, without having heard
the gospel.

Still, the clear command of Christ is: go into all
nations and preach the good news.

So, I see it as a matter of both/and, not either/or.

Does that make more sense?

Thanks,

reen12

Post # 143, in this thread, might also be of interest.

 

[Melchior]

reen12:

Hi, Melchior

quote: Melchior

The topic is stated as:
You don’t need to believe in Christ to be saved?

The operative word, here, is “need.” If born into a
culture where Christianity is hardly robust, in its
presence, God may save you, without having heard
the gospel.

Still, the clear command of Christ is: go into all
nations and preach the good news.

So, I see it as a matter of both/and, not either/or.

Does that make more sense?

Thanks,

reen12

Post # 143, in this thread, might also be of interest.

That does make more sense. Thanks.

Mel

 

[inJESUS]

sorry am new here &donno how to quote…

javelin:

May I ask how you reached this conclusion?

no Javelin what i meant is : those who heard Jesus’ teachings are responsible …not the one who died one hour after Jesus’ message neither the new-born who dies …i dont know how God will judge them…but i know that those who reject Jesus are rejecting God’s plan for salvation…don’t you agree?

No one is claiming otherwise. But what do you think He meant by “through Me”?

you can find many passages in the Bible that talk about salvation thru Jesus, believing his message of salvation &following his teachings…i think u agree on this as well…“for whoever shall believe in him will have eternal life”…take the example of the thief crucified nextto Jesus…believing that Jesus is the Son of God, Jesus replied: today u will be in heaven…it is just by believing in Jesus’ message…

Is it really that simple? Why would Jesus’ sacrifice have been in vain if people can be saved without formally accepting Him?

He had to suffer on our behalf…he chose to…he payed the price of our sins…if God wants to save all without Jesus’ death , then why send Jesus to start with? who said people can be saved without formally accepting him? where do you read in the Bible? and what does “formally” mean? either you accept him or not…theres is no middle choice…our understanding may differ…theres no problem…after all, we are all trying to understand God in our human capacities…but when i read that God has a plan for salvation, it is normal that those who reject the plan have rejected God…either u believe God or not…

(no offense) you sound very protestant.

am a catholic…but for me, ever person who believes Christ died for us to save us is a Christian…i dont care if he is catholic or protestant or evangelical or whatever…the Core is what matters… catholics b4 vatican 2 believed there is no salvation outside the **catholic ** church but afrer vatican 2, that is around year 1963, they talked about a salvation outside the catholic church but the core of SALVATION IS JESUS…there are some arguments about knowing Jesus or not…some catholics say if a person , by instict, followed Jesus’ teaching without knowing him, then he is saved…but the question is : how could someone follow Jesus’ teachings without knowing him? if a muslims marries 2, he IS NOT following Jesus’ teachings…if a pagan adored many gods he IS NOT following Jesus’ teachings…it is nearly impossible to know Jesus’ teachings if you do not know Jesus…hence we go back to the first question: i know Jesus but i want to stay on my own religion…what does this imply? it implies that he rejected the salvation message of Jesus coz if he didnt, he’d have to stick to Jesus’ teachings only not jis religion teachings which might contradict Jesus’ teachings…
Protestants as well have the same idea…the salvation is Jesus…He came to save us…thats his mission…

but if i sound protestant, you sound muslim muslims give your arguments about why send Jesus if God is love? why not just forgive us?

Jesus’ death opened the door, and His Grace paves the way.
sure…it paved the way for us to understand what we need to know about God and salvation…

I have a hard time … so many people with virtually no chance (due to their cultural upbringing and personal circumstance) of being saved.

i agree…thats why only those who reject Jesus are judged…not the ones who never heard of him…nowadays, with all the technology and missionary’s spreading the Gospel, it is very hard not to know Jesus’ teachings…but you must understand something: it is not only hearing the message, but seeing THE FRUIT…BY YOUR FRUIT YOU ARE KNOWN TO BE MY DISCIPLES…so if i tell you what the Gospel is about but do not show you a good example, the true message didnt reach you… if someone reads the Bible and rejects Jesus he is judged…but if he has no clue, its a different matter…AS A CHRISTIAN, I HAVE A GUARANTY FOR MY SALVATION…OTHERS DO NOT HAVE A GUARANTY…THEY MIGHT BE SAVED WHO KNOWS BUT THEY HAVE NO GUARANTY…of course God wants all to be saved…thats why he sent Jesus! and thats why Jesus and the Holy Spirit are still working in people’s hearts…those who ask God to reveal his truth, God will answer: knock and it shall be opened…those who just want to seal their hearts are free…those “tribes” who never heard of Jesus is a different thing…missionaries are doing their best to spread the Gospel and it is peoples’ free-will to accept or not.

TO CONCLUDE, we are not to judge &we do not know what God will do with someone who knows nothing about Jesus &who never saw a good example…BUT, we have a GUARANTY for salvation wheras others dont…

if u think otherwise, pls tell me how u think …

 

[javelin]

inJesus,

Read Luke 12:42-48 and tell me what you think is says about those who hear vs. those who do not hear God’s Word:

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

What does this say to you?

Peace,
javelin

 

[reen12]

quote: Melchoir

That does make more sense. Thanks.

Mel

Glad I was able to re-word it, to make it clearer.

Best regards,

reen12

 

[inJESUS]

Javelin, would you please tell me what you think of this passage? we have words mimits in this site so i cannot explain it fully…but in summary it is Jesus warning about being unprepared…
As i stated before, Christians believe that their salvation is guaranteed by Jesus…those who do not believe/follow Jesus do not have guarantees …do you agree? Jesus came to all mankind to save it, those who follow him are saved, those who dont are not sure…

if not, just tell me what you believe in? that everyone is saved without believing in Jesus? everyone is saved even if they dont believe God’s plan for salvation? God is good, but he is just as well…he did all this to save you, and gave you free-will to chose, if you are ungrateful and do not believe him why should he force you to be with him when you die if you already refused his salvation?