M
Mickey
Guest
Yet we are not called to judge him as he stands right now because the hope still remains that he will undergo a conversion of heart.
- Status
J
javelin
Guest
Melchior,
I am sympathetic to your concern and confusion. The debate over what “there is no slavation outside the Catholic Church” really means is going on strong, even in Catholic circles it seems.
I believe, though, was that Fr. Groeschel was overzealous in his optimism for his friend. Here is why:
It is true, as Mickey has stated, that we don’t ever really know for sure if someone will be condemned. The Church’s official position (AFAIK) is “we don’t know.”
However, we also never know if someone will be saved when they perish. So, for Fr. G. to say he is confident his Jewish friend “is saved” is very curious, and misleading. He doesn’t have any way of knowing if his friend is in a state of Grace or not unless he baptized him that very moment. Other than that moment, only God knows.
But our lack of interior knowledge of others shouldn’t keep us from evangelizing, for our strongest hope is always for the baptized, practicing, Catholic.
What happens to everyone else is up to God’s infinite mercy and perfect Justice.
Personally, I would rather everyone be on board the Ark of Peter.
I would be happy to talk with you more about this, because it is a difficult subject to come to terms with, IMHO. There are a lot of theological, philosophical, and sociological implications to how the question of ultimate salvation is answered. Feel free to PM me, too.
Peace,
javelin
I am sympathetic to your concern and confusion. The debate over what “there is no slavation outside the Catholic Church” really means is going on strong, even in Catholic circles it seems.
I believe, though, was that Fr. Groeschel was overzealous in his optimism for his friend. Here is why:
It is true, as Mickey has stated, that we don’t ever really know for sure if someone will be condemned. The Church’s official position (AFAIK) is “we don’t know.”
However, we also never know if someone will be saved when they perish. So, for Fr. G. to say he is confident his Jewish friend “is saved” is very curious, and misleading. He doesn’t have any way of knowing if his friend is in a state of Grace or not unless he baptized him that very moment. Other than that moment, only God knows.
But our lack of interior knowledge of others shouldn’t keep us from evangelizing, for our strongest hope is always for the baptized, practicing, Catholic.
What happens to everyone else is up to God’s infinite mercy and perfect Justice.
Personally, I would rather everyone be on board the Ark of Peter.
I would be happy to talk with you more about this, because it is a difficult subject to come to terms with, IMHO. There are a lot of theological, philosophical, and sociological implications to how the question of ultimate salvation is answered. Feel free to PM me, too.
Peace,
javelin
J
javelin
Guest
But didn’t Fr. G. judge him as he stands right now by saying he “was saved”?Yet we are not called to judge him as he stands right now because the hope still remains that he will undergo a conversion of heart.
It is certainly not right for him to say that he will be condemned, but how is it any different to say he *will be *saved?
Peace,
javelin
M
Mickey
Guest
I must admit, I don’t remember if Fr Groeschel said that he is confident that his rabbi friend “is saved”. I seem to remember that he said something to the effect of “it is possible that he will be saved”. However I may be mistaken. But you are correct javelin–only God knows.
M
Mickey
Guest
I sure would like to view that program again.
But here is the difference if in fact he did say that. To condemn someone is obviously wrong. To say that someone will be saved probably conveys hope, faith and love on the part of Fr G.
M
Melchior
Guest
javelin,
Thank you much for your post. It sheds much light.
So it is safe to say Catholics disagree on this.
Thanks again.
Mel
Thank you much for your post. It sheds much light.
So it is safe to say Catholics disagree on this.
Thanks again.
Mel
M
Mickey
Guest
Individual Catholics may disagree, but Church teaching is clear.
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
Estes,you are now being the judge. You say there is no way he is going to convert,and no way is he going to be condemed to hell.Its their sins that are going to condem them to hell, not that they dont believe in Jesus Christ.
God Bless
D
Della
Guest
Catholics might disagree on many things, rightly or wrongly, but the Church’s teaching on the topic is not open for debate. The Church has always taught that God accepts those who endeavor to please him no matter who they may be. Incidences of this are found in the NT, especially when Peter declared this truth in the house of Cornelius in Acts. Christ’s redemption was universal, salvation is individual and completely up to God. People misunderstanding or arguing against the Church’s teaching on this issue in no way negates what the Church teaches, and has always taught, any more than a speeder disputing a ticket with a police officer negates the speed limit.
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Mickey
Guest
Thank you Della.Catholics might disagree on many things, rightly or wrongly, but the Church’s teaching on the topic is not open for debate. The Church has always taught that God accepts those who endeavor to please him no matter who they may be. Incidences of this are found in the NT, especially when Peter declared this truth in the house of Cornelius in Acts. Christ’s redemption was universal, salvation is individual and completely up to God. People misunderstanding or arguing against the Church’s teaching on this issue in no way negates what the Church teaches, and has always taught, any more than a speeder disputing a ticket with a police officer negates the speed limit.
M
Melchior
Guest
But are you representing the former or the latter?
M
Mickey
Guest
I try to represent the magisterial teaching, but I am still learning.But are you representing the former or the latter?
M
Melchior
Guest
Well for most of Catholic history the Church has in fact not taught anything nearly so “generous” about unbelievers. It is simply not there until very recently.Catholics might disagree on many things, rightly or wrongly, but the Church’s teaching on the topic is not open for debate. The Church has always taught that God accepts those who endeavor to please him no matter who they may be. Incidences of this are found in the NT, especially when Peter declared this truth in the house of Cornelius in Acts. Christ’s redemption was universal, salvation is individual and completely up to God. People misunderstanding or arguing against the Church’s teaching on this issue in no way negates what the Church teaches, and has always taught, any more than a speeder disputing a ticket with a police officer negates the speed limit.
As for Cornelius you will note that that Peter declared the Truth to Cornelius and his house. This works in my arguments favor. The gospel came those who earnestly sought Truth. Cornelius received the message. My entire point could not have been made better! God did not leave him in ignorance.
The question remains: Who in this thread is representing the teaching of the church and who is taking liberties with it?
J
javelin
Guest
With all due respect, Mickey, I don’t think the Church’s teaching ver clear at all.
Had you asked people “in the know” in the Church 100 years ago, the answer would have sounded far different than what was written in Vatican II. It would have been much closer to “you must be Catholic to be saved”, and that there might be a “chosen few” who were not obviously Catholic who would be saved.
I emphasized sounded above because the Church cannot “change” her position without destroying the aire or infallibility she possesses. What Vatican II attempted to do was clarify the Church’s position on “Salvation outside the Church”, not redefine it. Some have interpreted what Vatican II stated very (IMHO) liberally, taking it to mean that many millions may be saved through invincible ignorance. There are many who disagree with that, primarily because of the strong testimony of Church documents addressing the question leading up to Vatican II. The controversy was so strong that some chose schism (one of the concerns of the SSPX folk is this very teaching). Just do a search on these forums for salvation outside the Church and you will find many who disagree on what exactly the statements of VII meant.
So saying that the Church’s position is clear is going too far.
What is clear, IMHO, is that we are much better off in the Church than outside it, and once we’re in, we have no real excuses.
Peace,
javelin
M
Mickey
Guest
With all due respect, I completely disagree with you. The Church’s position on matters of doctrine is crystal clear.
1
1ke
Guest
Mel, How ironic that it now comes out through one of your posts that you were a Catholic who left the church.
So, I’d say your situation-- having been a member of the True Church and rejecting Her-- is more precarious than a Jew’s-- who never had the fullness of Truth in the first place.
But, again, the part you are missing, and you said it yourself is “heard and understood”. Many people hear, few understand-- even you who started out Catholic fail to understand fully or you would not have left in the first place. To know the Church teaches the fullness of Truth and to willingly reject it is indeed to put yourself outside the Church and consequently in peril of Salvation.
Those who know and reject the Church and Christ are not in the same category as those who reject the Church and Christ without ever really believing in the Truth of it all.
So, I’d say your situation-- having been a member of the True Church and rejecting Her-- is more precarious than a Jew’s-- who never had the fullness of Truth in the first place.
But, again, the part you are missing, and you said it yourself is “heard and understood”. Many people hear, few understand-- even you who started out Catholic fail to understand fully or you would not have left in the first place. To know the Church teaches the fullness of Truth and to willingly reject it is indeed to put yourself outside the Church and consequently in peril of Salvation.
Those who know and reject the Church and Christ are not in the same category as those who reject the Church and Christ without ever really believing in the Truth of it all.
M
Melchior
Guest
If they are so clear then why are well meaning catholics in dsagreement on certain things such as this. I think with all due respect that you are being more dogmatic than the magesterium.
Another example is this: Predestination is dogma. However, one particular view of predestination is not dogma. A catholic is free to be an Augustinian/Thomist or a Molinist. But often you will here catholic saying things that leave the impression that Molinism is the clear teaching of the Church. Respectfully, I think you are approaching this similarly. If this issue were so clear then why do various councils try to clarify it every few centuries ala VII?
Mel
O
oat_soda
Guest
i think benedict g. is too optomistic. he’s thinking with his heart and not his head. you have too extremes, either only catholics in a state of grace are saved, or everyone is saved. both can’t be true so the truth is somewhere in the middle.
the teaching that there is no salvation outside the church is almost meaningless. only insofar that when we are saved, it has to be through the church in some mysterious way. but the ordinary way to be saved is to be baptized and believe.
dominus iesus says it best. but we catholics will be more severely judged.
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estesbob
Guest
Let me clarify-I meant there is no way he is going to be condemned to hell just becuase he is Jewish. Now he may go to hell for the amounthe charged me to my will but thats another story!Estes,you are now being the judge. You say there is no way he is going to convert,and no way is he going to be condemed to hell.Its their sins that are going to condem them to hell, not that they dont believe in Jesus Christ.
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
I hope you didn,t think I meant that just because one is Jewish they are condemmed to hell. There are many jews who believe Jesus as their Messiah. Its only those who knowingly have rejected Jesus that will be condemed.
God Bless- Status