You love Jesus, You believe He existed, but deny other writings about him

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Hi all,

It has been many many months since I was regular on these forums. But I see paarsurrey is still around and confusing me still the same.

He posted this in another thread …
Hi

I think we have only mythical expressions from Paul to base his new theological philosophy invented at Rome ; nothing more than that.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=294049

paarsurrey, can you please explain your logic?

You believe Jesus existed but dont believe what Paul wrote?
Why do you believe Jesus existed? And isnt any reason you give going to be the same logic that should mean you believe Paul too?
 
paarsurrey, can you please explain your logic?
He insists that the Ascension did not occur, and that Jesus and Mary moved to India and died there.

If that was true, then most of the NT is false. His logic is based on a false premise.
Whoop-de-do.

God bless,

Ruthie
 
paarsurrey, can you please explain your logic?

You believe Jesus existed but dont believe what Paul wrote?
Why do you believe Jesus existed? And isnt any reason you give going to be the same logic that should mean you believe Paul too?
Hi

Jesus and Mary I do love as they were chosen by God Allah for giving his word for the guidance of the sons of Israel. I also love Buddha and Krishna as they also received Word from God Allah for the guidance of their people in the East.

We peaceful Muslims believe in Moses, Jesus and Mary only because God Allah has mentioned their names and accounts of their life in Quran.

Jesus never dictated any Gospels or authenticated them. Neither Jesus nor Mary ever read these gospels. It were most probably written when Jesus along with Mary and his trusted friends were on their way to India.

The Gospels are not strictly speaking even one hundred per cent accurate historical sources. We therefore only believe in them what tallies with Quran or at least is not against Quran.

Gospels do not record full life account of Jesus life. They mention only a partial account of Jesus’ and Mary’s life.

Paul himself admitted that he was an enemy of Jesus and his companions. Paul never repented before Jesus and Jesus never forgave him for his behaviour, in my opinion. Paul is a non-entity to me as he changed everything Jesus had taught.

Paul did not meet Mary. Jesus did not take him along when he went to India.

I am not against Paul; but for Jesus and Mary I have to expose him.

No disrespected is intended to anybody; I have stated what I believe to be true, others could differ with me and believe what they think to be true.

Thanks
 
Please name the trusted friends that Jesus took along with him
 
Hi

Jesus and Mary I do love as they were chosen by God Allah for giving his word for the guidance of the sons of Israel. I also love Buddha and Krishna as they also received Word from God Allah for the guidance of their people in the East.

We peaceful Muslims believe in Moses, Jesus and Mary only because God Allah has mentioned their names and accounts of their life in Quran.

Jesus never dictated any Gospels or authenticated them. Neither Jesus nor Mary ever read these gospels. It were most probably written when Jesus along with Mary and his trusted friends were on their way to India.

The Gospels are not strictly speaking even one hundred per cent accurate historical sources. We therefore only believe in them what tallies with Quran or at least is not against Quran.

Gospels do not record full life account of Jesus life. They mention only a partial account of Jesus’ and Mary’s life.

Paul himself admitted that he was an enemy of Jesus and his companions. Paul never repented before Jesus and Jesus never forgave him for his behaviour, in my opinion. Paul is a non-entity to me as he changed everything Jesus had taught.

Paul did not meet Mary. Jesus did not take him along when he went to India.

I am not against Paul; but for Jesus and Mary I have to expose him.

No disrespected is intended to anybody; I have stated what I believe to be true, others could differ with me and believe what they think to be true.

Thanks
Thanks paarsurrey, I am glad you wrote “in my opinion” amongst all that

Why do you state that Jesus never dictated the Gospels? Do you think that means they are worthless?

Do you believe Jesus had 12 friends whom He travelled around with during His Ministry? Yes or No?
 
Thanks paarsurrey, I am glad you wrote “in my opinion” amongst all that

Why do you state that Jesus never dictated the Gospels? Do you think that means they are worthless?

Do you believe Jesus had 12 friends whom He travelled around with during His Ministry? Yes or No?
Hi

Now you know that it is a fact, in my opinion, that Jesus never dictated any gospels or never authorised anybody to write such gospels on his behalf. So those who attribute these gospels to Jesus; are wrong in my opinion. Sometimes they may write a thing which is truthful and being themselves just ordinary human beings sometimes they could make mistakes for which Jesus is not responsible.

So we cannot accept everything written by them as a hunderd per cent correct on the face of it. I don’t say they are just worthless piece of paper; but it has to be proved by reasonable arguments on every issue that they are useful and correct, otherwise they are what they are.

Quran mentions that Jesus had companions, but does not give the numbers, so I wil keep it open, maybe they were twelve or more, we shall have to check up if one was steadfast and truthful to Jesus or not.

I love Jesus and Mary.

Thanks
 
He insists that the Ascension did not occur, and that Jesus and Mary moved to India and died there.

If that was true, then most of the NT is false. His logic is based on a false premise.
Whoop-de-do.

God bless,

Ruthie
Ruthie, that is not true. Nothing of the NT is false. Even if Jesus and his mother moved to India, nothing is wrong with NT. NT only describes the life of Jesus in Kana’an (by four gospels). All is well and applicable. Muslims do not deny anything as to what Jesus did or said, except a small part about Jesus dying on the cross.

That is also believable because there was nothing else to say except that he had died on the cross. Nobody could say that he was still alive otherwise his bones would have been broken. Thanks to Allah Jesus was saved well intact.

That is all correct as described in the bibleNT. Then later when Jesus left the area and travelled to the eastern countries (He could not go to the west side), that was also very wise and every one was told that he had gone up to the father. That was said and it is written in bibleNT. That was to save Jesus so that nobody goes looking for him.

There is nothing wrong in the four gospels and I do not say that anything is false. I mean the travel to India does not affect the bibleNT. In bibleNT only events upto the cross and a short time later are described, no more. Bible is quiet about Jesus after his event of the cross. But Quran tells much more than that.
 
So, Planten…everything is true in the NT and you don’t believe that there is anything to be doubted in it, EXCEPT the central event of the Crucifixion, because it conflicts with what is written in the Qu’ran of some 600+ years later?

I am just trying to summarize your view. I can’t see how it makes sense to hold this view, but that’s okay. Only you have to worry about it. 🙂

p.s.- Thank you for posting in a regular font! I hope you will do this from now on. It is much easier on my eyes, and safe for our members that have epilepsy.
 
I am just trying to summarize your view. I can’t see how it makes sense to hold this view, but that’s okay.
Hi

I think planten himself should summarize his view; you have only mentioned what you have understood of him. To men his view has more sense, as I undestand.

I love Jesus and Mary.

Thanks
 
Hi

Now you know that it is a fact, in my opinion, that Jesus never dictated any gospels or never authorised anybody to write such gospels on his behalf. So those who attribute these gospels to Jesus; are wrong in my opinion. Sometimes they may write a thing which is truthful and being themselves just ordinary human beings sometimes they could make mistakes for which Jesus is not responsible.

So we cannot accept everything written by them as a hunderd per cent correct on the face of it. I don’t say they are just worthless piece of paper; but it has to be proved by reasonable arguments on every issue that they are useful and correct, otherwise they are what they are.

Quran mentions that Jesus had companions, but does not give the numbers, so I wil keep it open, maybe they were twelve or more, we shall have to check up if one was steadfast and truthful to Jesus or not.

I love Jesus and Mary.

Thanks
Christians dont say Jesus authorised the Gospels, or dictated them, and no Christian ever says they are attributed to Him.
We say for a fact that they were written by His friends, guided by the Holy Spirit, that is how we know they are true.
 
they were written by His friends, guided by the Holy Spirit,
Hi

Well that could be merley your opinion not a fact.How could you know that they were trusted friends of Jesus? How could you know that they were guided by they Holy Spirit? Maybe or maynotbe.

If they mention things which are correct and truthful then they are, but if they donot mention things that are correct and truthful, then obviously they are not. They cannot blame the Holy Spirit for their faults and mistakes, in my opinion.

Even they made faults and mistakes when they were with Jesus; now that Jesus and Mary had gone to India, they were apt to make even more, logically in my opinion. They were born “with the same original sin”, I think you believe.

I love Jesus and Mary

Thanks
 
Hi

I think planten himself should summarize his view; you have only mentioned what you have understood of him. To men his view has more sense, as I undestand.

I love Jesus and Mary.

Thanks
That’s the point of asking him if I’ve understood him correctly…neither he nor you are always the easiest to understand, and when I read that he believes that there is NOTHING incorrect in the NT except for the Crucifixion accounts, I was surprised. So I asked him. Last I checked, there is no problem in asking for clarification. If you don’t like it, fine, but don’t respond in such an needlessly rude manner, as though I’m trying to put words in Planten’s “mouth” when I’m doing the exact opposite.
 
Hi

Even they made faults and mistakes when they were with Jesus; now that Jesus and Mary had gone to India, they were apt to make even more, logically in my opinion. They were born “with the same original sin”, I think you believe.

I love Jesus and Mary

Thanks
How do you know that Jesus and Mary had gone to India? from where you got the source about it?
 
How do you know that Jesus and Mary had gone to India? from where you got the source about it?
Hi

I have written so many posts on this subject in this forum, you may read them plus you may access my blog.

To start with I would like you to read a book “Jesus in India”:alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/index.html

I mention here its preface only for your and the other memebers benefit.

Jesus in India is an English version of Masih Hindustan mein, an Urdu treatise written by the Holy Founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835 - 1908).

The main thesis expounded in the treatise is Jesus’ escape from an ignominious death on the Cross and his subsequent journey to India in quest of the lost tribes of Israel whom he had to gather into his fold as mentioned in the New Testament.

Abundant evidence has been furnished from Christian as well as Muslim Scriptures, old medical books and books of history, including ancient Buddhistic records, to illustrate the theme.

Starting upon his journey from Jerusalem and passing from thence through Nasibus and Iran, Jesus is shown to have reached Afghanistan, where he met the Jews who had settled there after their deliverance from the bondage of Nebuchadnezzar.

From Afghanistan Jesus went to Kashmir, where some Israelite tribes had also settled. He made this place his home and here he died. His tomb has been traced and found in Khanyar Street, Srinagar.

In the section dealing with the evidence adduced from ancient Buddhistic records, Hazrat Ahmad has resolved a question which, owing to its difficult nature, has for a long time confounded many a Western writer.

These writers have been baffled by the striking resemblance that exists between Christian and Buddhistic teachings and between the life events of both Jesus and Buddha as revealed in their respective Scriptures.

Some of these writers hold the view that Buddhistic teachings must somehow have reached Palestine and been assimilated by Jesus in his own sermons. But there is absolutely no historical proof to support this theory.

A Russian traveller named Nicolas Notovitch stayed for quite some time with Lamas in Tibet and had their sacred books translated for him. He is of the opinion that Jesus must have come to Tibet before the crucifixion and gone back to Palestine after having imbibed Buddhistic teachings. This also is a mere statement unsupported by reliable historical evidence.

Repudiating both these views, Hazrat Ahmad writes that Jesus came to India not before the event of the Cross but after it and that it was not he who borrowed Buddhistic teachings but the followers of Buddha who seem to have reproduced the entire picture of the Gospels in their books.

According to Hazrat Ahmad Jesus also visited Tibet during his travels in India in search of the lost tribes of Israel. He preached his messages to Buddhistic monks, some of whom were converted Jews. The followers of Buddha were deeply impressed by his teachings and took him to be the manifestation of Buddha and their Promised Teacher. With faith in him as their Master, they mixed his teachings with their own records and ascribed it all to the Buddha. Ample evidence in support of this is furnished from ancient Buddhistic records.

Masih Hindustan mein was written in 1899 and it marks the end of an era in which for centuries Muslims and Christians had believed in the ascension of Jesus to Heaven. It being the first book ever written on the subject with such a rational approach, the book produced a most profound impact.

Its arguments were broadcast and in the past half-century it has achieved remarkable success in divesting Jesus of false appurtenances of divinity and in presenting him to the world merely as a divine prophet as he actually was.

In Muslim circles the effect has been so marked that the Rector of the Al-Azhar University in Cairo issued a Fatwa (verdict) that according to the Holy Quran Jesus had died a natural death. Its influence on the Christian mind has also been greatly disturbing.

As stated in the Introduction and also at the end of the book, Hazrat Ahmad intended to write a second part in which he would have given, besides some additional proofs of Jesus’ journey to India, a comparative evaluation of the teachings of Islam and Christianity with some cogent arguments in proof of the truth of Islam as well as of his own claim to be the Promised Messiah.

Though no other book among his writings bears this title, yet Hazrat Ahmad has discussed thoroughly all these issues with many more important ones concerning the truth of Islam, of his own claim and of the death of Jesus in quite a number of books which he wrote after the above-mentioned book.

The present English translation was made by Qazi Abdul Hamid, formerly editor of a weekly, The Sunrise, Lahore, in which it appeared serially during 1938-39. It was first published in book form in 1944 by Nashr-o-Ishaat, Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya, Qadian.

Besides others who have assisted us in any way in the production of this book, our thanks are due to Mr. Mauloud Ahmad Khan, a former Imam of the London Mosque, who went to great pains to gather relevant quotations from the original books which have been referred to by Hazrat Ahmad in support of his thesis. The quotations have been attached to the book in the form of an appendix.

Vakil-ut-Tabshir, Tahrik-i-Jadid, Rabwah, Pakistan
MAY 1962

The book is not lengthy; small 107 pages in all. You will find answer to your queries and then we could discuss on every aspect as you like.

I think it is reasonable.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna.

Thanks
 
Hi

I have written so many posts on this subject in this forum, you may read them plus you may access my blog.

To start with I would like you to read a book “Jesus in India”:alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/index.html

I mention here its preface only for your and the other memebers benefit.

Jesus in India is an English version of Masih Hindustan mein, an Urdu treatise written by the Holy Founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835 - 1908).

The main thesis expounded in the treatise is Jesus’ escape from an ignominious death on the Cross and his subsequent journey to India in quest of the lost tribes of Israel whom he had to gather into his fold as mentioned in the New Testament.

Abundant evidence has been furnished from Christian as well as Muslim Scriptures, old medical books and books of history, including ancient Buddhistic records, to illustrate the theme.

Starting upon his journey from Jerusalem and passing from thence through Nasibus and Iran, Jesus is shown to have reached Afghanistan, where he met the Jews who had settled there after their deliverance from the bondage of Nebuchadnezzar.

From Afghanistan Jesus went to Kashmir, where some Israelite tribes had also settled. He made this place his home and here he died. His tomb has been traced and found in Khanyar Street, Srinagar.

In the section dealing with the evidence adduced from ancient Buddhistic records, Hazrat Ahmad has resolved a question which, owing to its difficult nature, has for a long time confounded many a Western writer.

These writers have been baffled by the striking resemblance that exists between Christian and Buddhistic teachings and between the life events of both Jesus and Buddha as revealed in their respective Scriptures.

Some of these writers hold the view that Buddhistic teachings must somehow have reached Palestine and been assimilated by Jesus in his own sermons. But there is absolutely no historical proof to support this theory.

A Russian traveller named Nicolas Notovitch stayed for quite some time with Lamas in Tibet and had their sacred books translated for him. He is of the opinion that Jesus must have come to Tibet before the crucifixion and gone back to Palestine after having imbibed Buddhistic teachings. This also is a mere statement unsupported by reliable historical evidence.

Repudiating both these views, Hazrat Ahmad writes that Jesus came to India not before the event of the Cross but after it and that it was not he who borrowed Buddhistic teachings but the followers of Buddha who seem to have reproduced the entire picture of the Gospels in their books.

According to Hazrat Ahmad Jesus also visited Tibet during his travels in India in search of the lost tribes of Israel. He preached his messages to Buddhistic monks, some of whom were converted Jews. The followers of Buddha were deeply impressed by his teachings and took him to be the manifestation of Buddha and their Promised Teacher. With faith in him as their Master, they mixed his teachings with their own records and ascribed it all to the Buddha. Ample evidence in support of this is furnished from ancient Buddhistic records.

Masih Hindustan mein was written in 1899 and it marks the end of an era in which for centuries Muslims and Christians had believed in the ascension of Jesus to Heaven. It being the first book ever written on the subject with such a rational approach, the book produced a most profound impact.

Its arguments were broadcast and in the past half-century it has achieved remarkable success in divesting Jesus of false appurtenances of divinity and in presenting him to the world merely as a divine prophet as he actually was.

In Muslim circles the effect has been so marked that the Rector of the Al-Azhar University in Cairo issued a Fatwa (verdict) that according to the Holy Quran Jesus had died a natural death. Its influence on the Christian mind has also been greatly disturbing.

As stated in the Introduction and also at the end of the book, Hazrat Ahmad intended to write a second part in which he would have given, besides some additional proofs of Jesus’ journey to India, a comparative evaluation of the teachings of Islam and Christianity with some cogent arguments in proof of the truth of Islam as well as of his own claim to be the Promised Messiah.

Though no other book among his writings bears this title, yet Hazrat Ahmad has discussed thoroughly all these issues with many more important ones concerning the truth of Islam, of his own claim and of the death of Jesus in quite a number of books which he wrote after the above-mentioned book.

The present English translation was made by Qazi Abdul Hamid, formerly editor of a weekly, The Sunrise, Lahore, in which it appeared serially during 1938-39. It was first published in book form in 1944 by Nashr-o-Ishaat, Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya, Qadian.

Besides others who have assisted us in any way in the production of this book, our thanks are due to Mr. Mauloud Ahmad Khan, a former Imam of the London Mosque, who went to great pains to gather relevant quotations from the original books which have been referred to by Hazrat Ahmad in support of his thesis. The quotations have been attached to the book in the form of an appendix.

Vakil-ut-Tabshir, Tahrik-i-Jadid, Rabwah, Pakistan
MAY 1962

The book is not lengthy; small 107 pages in all. You will find answer to your queries and then we could discuss on every aspect as you like.

I think it is reasonable.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna.

Thanks
Well, I don’t think I find the answer because it’s just nonsense. There’s no actual proof for it and even other muslims reject and don’t believe it. So why should I?🤷
 
So I will not get any answers? Anyway
Hi
You were wrong to think that.
The answer has been given to you; you were not polite enough to see it or read it I think. Then why did you ask for it, to start with? God bless you and Cathologist!

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna.

Thanks
 
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