You Must Know This Man

[Reuben_J]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

Hi Hawk,
I will try to reply to most of your comments:

About why God tested us, this is one of the most beautiful aspects of Islam that is not present in Christianity (or atleast not in the same fashion as that of Islams). Both christianity and islam belief God knows past, present, and future, and decrees all by His Wisdom and Knowledge. But christanity believe everyone has a sin born with them that goes all the way back to Adam, so Jesus/God had to sacrifice himself for the sins of mankind, and this is how he showed his mercy. So if they embrace christ, they are saved. In Islam however there is no such concept of original sin, but rather Adam was forgiven by God, and even if he wasnt, it wouldnt matter because every human is born sinless anyways because of the simple fact he didnt do any sin to begin with, and it doesnt matter what their ancestors did or Adam did, because in Islam a soul will only be accountable for their own actions, whether good or bad. And the way of removing a major sin from ones record is to feel remorse and repent from that sin and have the intention never to do it again. If one does that they are forgiven by God because God has said he would, and He is All-Merciful. If a human dies with major sins without repenting from them, then he is under the Will of God, if He chooses he will forgive him by His mercy, or He will punish him by His justice.

This is the test God has created human beings for, to see who would choose obedience and worship to Him alone and to see who would choose disobedience and associating worship to other than Him. Everyone is held responsibile for their actions, and they all know exactly how to rectify their actions. Yes, God knows everything that will happen, but do we know? No we dont. And does God knowing everything prevent us from choose either righteousness or evil? Ofcourse not, we all have the ability and the choice of good or bad, obedience or sin, and righteousness or evil.

Hi Hashi,

Thanks for stating the Islam’s view on God’s forgiveness and sins.

As a Christian there are many aspects of Islam that I admire and respect because some of your doctrines are so close to ours. And yet in some very important areas we do differ. Usually when it come to them, I’d say we just disagree, unless there is a request for discussion or I thought i might want to clarify with Muslims.

Refer your post above. While Islam states that God’s forgiveness is sufficient to save humans of their sins, Christianity goes further than that. It’s not just the sacrifice of Jesus. That sacrifce achieves two pronge result. Frogiveness (which you have) and the overcome of sin and death (which you do not have).

Please don’t confuse yourself with the **original sin ** concept since Islam doesn’t believe that. To Christian too that’s is secondary. But the result of the oruginal sin is the **fallen nature ** of humans. Man instinctive desire is to sin. I want to do good thing, but I find myself doing the thing (sin) that I don’t want to do.

This is where Jesus sacrifice comes in. Forgiveness alone is not enough because man sins again and again, and it’s not because he wants to, but its because his flesh is weak (fallen nature) and he usually succumbs to that and sins.

Jesus’ victory at the cross put to death this fallen nature (this is where we differs as Islam doesn’t accept Jesus death). The love of God for thus is to prevent us against sin, simply because we cannot do it on our own.

Of course this is not to say that Christians don’t sin. But they have that assurance they can overcome sinful nature if they believe. And many a time, that’s how we overcome sins.

God tests humans? maybe yes, I don’t know. Generally Christians don’t dwell on this because we don’t think this is the primary nature of God.

We know that God will not allow us the temptation to sin which is beyond our endurance (Jesus sacrifice ensure that).

Peace.

Reuben

 

[hawk]

About why God tested us, this is one of the most beautiful aspects of Islam that is not present in Christianity (or atleast not in the same fashion as that of Islams). Both christianity and islam belief God knows past, present, and future, and decrees all by His Wisdom and Knowledge. But christanity believe everyone has a sin born with them that goes all the way back to Adam, so Jesus/God had to sacrifice himself for the sins of mankind, and this is how he showed his mercy. So if they embrace christ, they are saved. In Islam however there is no such concept of original sin, but rather Adam was forgiven by God, and even if he wasnt, it wouldnt matter because every human is born sinless anyways because of the simple fact he didnt do any sin to begin with, and it doesnt matter what their ancestors did or Adam did, because in Islam a soul will only be accountable for their own actions, whether good or bad. And the way of removing a major sin from ones record is to feel remorse and repent from that sin and have the intention never to do it again. If one does that they are forgiven by God because God has said he would, and He is All-Merciful. If a human dies with major sins without repenting from them, then he is under the Will of God, if He chooses he will forgive him by His mercy, or He will punish him by His justice.

Original sin is the state of sin, the state that came about from the fall.

Can I ask a question? Why did God put adam and eve in the garden? Were they not to be the calphs of the world?
So why were they in the garden?

 

[hlgomez]

Quote:
About why God tested us, this is one of the most beautiful aspects of Islam that is not present in Christianity (or atleast not in the same fashion as that of Islams). Both christianity and islam belief God knows past, present, and future, and decrees all by His Wisdom and Knowledge. But christanity believe everyone has a sin born with them that goes all the way back to Adam, so Jesus/God had to sacrifice himself for the sins of mankind, and this is how he showed his mercy. So if they embrace christ, they are saved. In Islam however there is no such concept of original sin, but rather Adam was forgiven by God, and even if he wasnt, it wouldnt matter because every human is born sinless anyways because of the simple fact he didnt do any sin to begin with, and it doesnt matter what their ancestors did or Adam did, because in Islam a soul will only be accountable for their own actions, whether good or bad. And the way of removing a major sin from ones record is to feel remorse and repent from that sin and have the intention never to do it again. If one does that they are forgiven by God because God has said he would, and He is All-Merciful. If a human dies with major sins without repenting from them, then he is under the Will of God, if He chooses he will forgive him by His mercy, or He will punish him by His justice.

Original sin is the state of sin, the state that came about from the fall.

This is the fact that Muslims find it hard to understand–original sin. Thru one man’s (Adam) disobedience, death came upon all human beings, but thru one man’s (Jesus Christ) obedience, eternal life.

This is the mission of the Son–to ransom us from sin and death, and give us new life, eternal life. Amen.

Praise be Isa ibnu Allah!

Pio

 

[UnworthySoul]

Faith101:

paganism?? lol…you gotta be kidding.

Mohamed peace be upon him was never a pagan! Where do you get this stuff?

Then what was Mohammad before he invented Islam? He wasn’t a Jew though he drew from Jewish doctrines to found his religion. He wasn’t a Christian though he drew on Christian doctrines to found his religion. So if he wasn’t either of these, and most likely did worship the pagan moon god of Arabia (like most others in and around Arabia) before founding his religion, then he was, logically, a pagan. If not that, what was he before he founded Islam?

 

[UnworthySoul]

Hashi Al-Eritre, in response,

Ofcourse we all have our own way of how we choose to believe in God, but dont you think thats a bit of a complicated way to believe in God?

What does being complicated have to do with anything? Seriously, is not the world complex?

One of the sayings of the Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him and all the prophets) is that every child is born a Muslim, free of sin, knowing God exists and that He is the Lord of all things and not part of the creation, but then its the parents of the child that make him a jew or a christian or a fire-worshipper. And this really is true because simply no child would ever come to know the christian ideology on their own (ie. that God became a human and he came on earth and he died for my sins and that the true way to believe in God is through the concept of the trinity, etc), it really is a bit complex.

This is ridiculous on it’s face. Islam did not come about until the 7th century. It is a mingling of Christian and Jewish beliefs. I submit to you that Polynesian pagans 1,000 years ago knew nothing of Islam because it did not exist. The God of the Jews existed from the beginning of known time, and before. Christ Jesus did not start a new religion, He completed the work begun by God those eons past. He is the fulfillment of Jewish faith. As far as the concept of Trinity, it is not too difficult to believe at all. Do you believe God created the universe? Is that not difficult to believe? Of course not, with God all things are possible.

Even adult christians who ive talked to who go to church, as i ask questions regarding their belief system, even they get confused themselves or make contradictions, while some just resort to explaining how they believe in God through emotional feelings and ‘divine’ experiences.

Are you implying that no Muslim ever gets confused? Please. That is a completely specious arguement. As regards Divine experiences, well friend, if you do not believe God can touch a person’s soul, then I am sorry for you.

Ever since i was a child i knew (and distictly remember i knew) God existed and was above His creation and was One and that there was no other diety that shared his attributes.

Christians and Jews believe this as well.

con’t…

 

[UnworthySoul]

con’t…

I came to Canada at the age of 7 and was exposed to christianity all of my years as an adolescent and actually knew more about christianity than i did about Islam (all i knew about Islam then was that God existed and that Muhammed was the Prophet and that the Quran was the book of Muslims). But its because of this complex way of believing in God that totally made me never accept the beliefs of christianity. It wasnt until i was almost 18 that i began learning Islam more and in how Islam called to belief in God and then began to embrace it fully in my heart and in my practice.

And this is exactly what Mohammed relied on to convert people. Simplicity for people who could not grasp certain doctrines (not from lack of intelligence, but from lack of instruction). It is known that Mohammed lived on the fringes of the Judeo-Christian world. But living on the fringes did not give him a clear insight to those beliefs, rather, he got a foggy insight. Many Arabs of the time were in the same position. Mohammed took what he understood about Judaism and Catholicism and, removing what he thought too confusing, formed his own faith. Why did he remove the confusing parts? Because he himself did not understand it. This is not a fault of his. He did not have instruction because as yet Catholic missionaries had not extended that far into the East. Regardless, Mohammed saw Truth but did not comprehend it because he did not see all of it. Thus, he was able to “pick and choose” what he liked and disregard what he didn’t like. He was able to mingle the concept of one God with the practices and traditions of pagan Arabia (like the shrine that used to house hundreds of Arabian gods, now housing only his). In essence, creating a monotheism the native people could accept. And of course, he spread his religion by the sword. No denying that.

Islam is the only religion that totally denounces any type of worship to other than the One True God, and makes Him alone in Lordship, and the only religion where i can turn to God alone in my supplications and calling for help and in seeking forgiveness, without anyone having to ‘interceed’ for me with God, and the only religion that recognizes ALL the Prophets and Messengers as true Prophets and Messengers.

****That is simply not true, and you are either ignorant or intentionally lying (not trying to be accusatory, but that is the only way to explain such a position). The Jews were believers in the One God long before anyone. More than 3000 years ago, and long before Mohammed created his religion, the Jews were praying to the One God. Remember, “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One!” That was in place long before Mohammed was born. Catholicism is the culmination and completion of what God began with the Jews. **
**
In terms of how to understand and believe in God and the other tenants of faith, i dont think there is a simpler and more logical ideology than that of Islam’s.

Again, you imply simplicity equates to truth but you back up that assertion with nothing.

There will ofcourse be muslims you will portray islam in a bad light, but judging a religion by its people isnt the best way to understand what the religion is really about anyways. You know the truthfulness of a religion by its belief system, and this is why i am a Muslim.

Please do take my post as simply dialogue and forgive me if i have said anything to upset you or put down your faith.

May God guide you and us.
Hashi

And through God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, may He lead you home to Him.

 

[UnworthySoul]

allhers:

Jesus said, I am the way,the truth and the life. When we study our faith, (being a Catholic)we are studying God. I believe that Jesus, being God the Son, IS the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Just as He said.

Truly Islam does practice simplicity. They have to. There is no way to dispute what you have said above. UNLESS. Unless you can convince people, with no proof whatsoever (indeed, the historical evidence shows just the opposite of what Muslims claim) that the Christian texts are somehow “tainted.” It is a weak way to prove yourself, but that is exactly what Islam claims.

 

[UnworthySoul]

hawk:

Original sin is the state of sin, the state that came about from the fall.

Can I ask a question? Why did God put adam and eve in the garden? Were they not to be the calphs of the world?
So why were they in the garden?

Why would you ask this? Seriously, why? Whatever answer we give you will come from the Bible, which you claim is tainted, therefore none of our answers will be sufficient for you. So again, why ask?

 

[exoflare]

Why would you ask this? Seriously, why? Whatever answer we give you will come from the Bible, which you claim is tainted, therefore none of our answers will be sufficient for you. So again, why ask?

Dude, he’s a former Muslim converted to Catholicism. Lighten up…

 

[UnworthySoul]

My apologies. I’ll work on my charity. Thank you for calling me on it. And my apologies to hawk as well.

 

[Faith101]

UnworthySoul:

Then what was Mohammad before he invented Islam? He wasn’t a Jew though he drew from Jewish doctrines to found his religion. He wasn’t a Christian though he drew on Christian doctrines to found his religion. So if he wasn’t either of these, and most likely did worship the pagan moon god of Arabia (like most others in and around Arabia) before founding his religion, then he was, logically, a pagan. If not that, what was he before he founded Islam?

what was Abraham before the message was revealed to him? He was one who believed in ONE God and rejected the stupidity of his people in ascribing partners to God.

Mohamed lived in a pagan society, yes. But he did not partake in their activities, nor did He believe their lies. He believed in a higher power which he knew could not be presented through the presence of idols. He used to spend long hours thinking and contemplating the creation that was around him. It was there and then that He recieved revelation from the Angel Gabriel that told him about that Creator which he was contemplating.

If you would like to know more about him, then you can visit

al-sunnah.com/nektar/

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Hi Unworthysoul,

I had replied to your post only to have the site go offline and i lost my whole reply. Anyhow, i thought it would be important to reply to your comments as i do not agree with some of what you said.

What does being complicated have to do with anything? Seriously, is not the world complex?

Actually the way to God shouldnt be complex or difficult to gasp. It should be simple and natural to accept. It should make complete sense and be free from any sort of confusion or fault. It should be easy for any laymen to understand and believe in. It shouldnt be complex to believe in ones Creator, nor should it seem odd in nature.

This is ridiculous on it’s face. Islam did not come about until the 7th century. It is a mingling of Christian and Jewish beliefs. I submit to you that Polynesian pagans 1,000 years ago knew nothing of Islam because it did not exist. The God of the Jews existed from the beginning of known time, and before. Christ Jesus did not start a new religion, He completed the work begun by God those eons past. He is the fulfillment of Jewish faith.

One could say the same about Christianity, that it didnt come until after Jesus. Just as you believe christianity is the final message God sent to mankind, we believe Islam is the final message God sent to mankind. It isnt something new, rather it re-affirms the faith of Abraham in the belief of One God, it believes in all the Prophets and Messengers from Adam to Noah to Moses to Abraham to Jesus to finally Muhammed being the final one, and all the 124,000 of prophets and messengers in between. It calls to nothing but worshipping God alone without any partners or associates, and making religion purely for God alone. What part of this beautiful system of belief is new? If we were talking about Hinduism or Buddism or Sikism etc, then obviously these faiths share no similarity with the faith Judaism or Christianity or Islam because atleast these 3 faiths have similarities and believe in many of the same prophets.

As far as the concept of Trinity, it is not too difficult to believe at all. Do you believe God created the universe? Is that not difficult to believe? Of course not, with God all things are possible.

How can the concept of the trinity be compared to believing that God created the Universe? Understanding the trinity is not nearly as easy as believeing God created the universe. Also, the trinity is not from the beliefs found in a human’s natural disposition, whereas believing in a Creator is.

Are you implying that no Muslim ever gets confused? Please. That is a completely specious arguement.

Yes ill agree with you this isnt really an argument one can use, but i was merely trying to point out that the concept of the trinity is definately alot harder to gasp and understand than that of ‘Tawheed’ (the belief in One True God worthy of all worship). Thus, it is no surprise to find christians having difficulty answering questions regarding it, or even explaining it for that matter. It simply isnt a bullet-proof concept of belief like that of ‘Tawheed’, the belief system of Islam.

As regards Divine experiences, well friend, if you do not believe God can touch a person’s soul, then I am sorry for you.

There is a difference between believing in miracles and using them as proof for the truthfulness of a faith. Every faith will have followers claiming miracles! Heck i got miracles to share of my own. But im not gonna use them to proof my faith is true. I cannot enumerate how many times i have christians, whether priests or followers, call people to christianity by this method. I guess when you have a complicated system of belief you kinda have to resort other ways of relaying the message to people.

continued…

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

continued…

And this is exactly what Mohammed relied on to convert people. Simplicity for people who could not grasp certain doctrines (not from lack of intelligence, but from lack of instruction). It is known that Mohammed lived on the fringes of the Judeo-Christian world. But living on the fringes did not give him a clear insight to those beliefs, rather, he got a foggy insight. Many Arabs of the time were in the same position. Mohammed took what he understood about Judaism and Catholicism and, removing what he thought too confusing, formed his own faith. Why did he remove the confusing parts? Because he himself did not understand it.

Believe what you wish, but like i said the islamic system of belief is not new and is only a re-affirmation of the message of the previous Prophets and Messengers, that the people restrict all their worship to God alone. Islam does not say as the Jews say that Jesus was a ‘bastard’, nor do we say as the Christians say that he is God or son of God. Rather, he is the Messiah, the son of the virgin Mary, born by the permission of God when He said ‘Be’ and he was. He was from the Mighty Prophets and Messengers, a true servant of God, sent only to call the children of Israel to worshipping God alone.

This claim he made it simple so as to get the people to accept ‘his’ faith, this actually goes against what is historically reported. The arabs of that time were extremely opposed to the message of Muhammed and tried every way they could to stop him from spreading his message. They persecuted and tortured his followers, tried to kill him, insulted, harrased, and abused him… they did alot of harm to him and his followers. And this didnt go on for just a couple years, rather it went on for 2 decades where he was constantly facing trials and tribulations against his enemies, until God finally gave him victory over the people of Makkah. And indeed those tried and tested by the people the most are the Prophets and Messengers!

That is simply not true, and you are either ignorant or intentionally lying (not trying to be accusatory, but that is the only way to explain such a position). The Jews were believers in the One God long before anyone. More than 3000 years ago, and long before Mohammed created his religion, the Jews were praying to the One God. Remember, “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One!” That was in place long before Mohammed was born. Catholicism is the culmination and completion of what God began with the Jews.

Like i said, the Prophet Muhammed came to re-affirm the message of the previous Prophets and Messengers. I dont understand why christianity had to change such a beautiful concept in belief in One God worthy of worship to that of the trinity.

For a religion to be true, it MUST be in conformality with the message of the previous Prophets and Messengers. It could be different in terms of some of its Legal rulings, but it cannot be different with regards to its system of belief. The belief system must be consistent for all times and for all people. The trinity was not present before christianity. Belief in One God was. Islam came to re-establish that.

Again, you imply simplicity equates to truth but you back up that assertion with nothing.

It isnt just about simplicity but also about its nature. One should find it in conformality with ones natural disposition. It should be solid in its foundations and in its branches. It should be bullet-proof from criticism from all angles. It should be easy on the heart to accept, and easy on the mind to gasp and understand.

Truly Islam does practice simplicity. They have to. There is no way to dispute what you have said above.

Im glad you agree Islam is simple. And yes it should be… God’s message should be simple enough for all mankind to gasp.

UNLESS. Unless you can convince people, with no proof whatsoever (indeed, the historical evidence shows just the opposite of what Muslims claim) that the Christian texts are somehow “tainted.” It is a weak way to prove yourself, but that is exactly what Islam claims.

From what i was told by christians, the bible is an interpretation of the message of Jesus and his desiples, not word for word account. Either or, im not here to discuss that topic, atleast not yet. There are more fundamental aspects i think that deserve attention.

May God guide us to the truth,
Hashi

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Hi Unworthysoul,

I had replied to your post only to have the site go offline and i lost my whole reply. Anyhow, i thought it would be important to reply to your comments as i do not agree with some of what you said.

What does being complicated have to do with anything? Seriously, is not the world complex?

Actually the way to God shouldnt be complex or difficult to gasp. It should be simple and natural to accept. It should make complete sense and be free from any sort of confusion or fault. It should be easy for any laymen to understand and believe in. It shouldnt be complex to believe in ones Creator, nor should it seem odd in nature.

This is ridiculous on it’s face. Islam did not come about until the 7th century. It is a mingling of Christian and Jewish beliefs. I submit to you that Polynesian pagans 1,000 years ago knew nothing of Islam because it did not exist. The God of the Jews existed from the beginning of known time, and before. Christ Jesus did not start a new religion, He completed the work begun by God those eons past. He is the fulfillment of Jewish faith.

One could say the same about Christianity, that it didnt come until after Jesus. Just as you believe christianity is the final message God sent to mankind, we believe Islam is the final message God sent to mankind. It isnt something new, rather it re-affirms the faith of Abraham in the belief of One God, it believes in all the Prophets and Messengers from Adam to Noah to Moses to Abraham to Jesus to finally Muhammed being the final one, and all the 124,000 of prophets and messengers in between. It calls to nothing but worshipping God alone without any partners or associates, and making religion purely for God alone. What part of this beautiful system of belief is new? If we were talking about Hinduism or Buddism or Sikism etc, then obviously these faiths share no similarity with the faith Judaism or Christianity or Islam because atleast these 3 faiths have similarities and believe in many of the same prophets.

As far as the concept of Trinity, it is not too difficult to believe at all. Do you believe God created the universe? Is that not difficult to believe? Of course not, with God all things are possible.

How can the concept of the trinity be compared to believing that God created the Universe? Understanding the trinity is not nearly as easy as believeing God created the universe. Also, the trinity is not from the beliefs found in a human’s natural disposition, whereas believing in a Creator is.

Are you implying that no Muslim ever gets confused? Please. That is a completely specious arguement.

Yes ill agree with you this isnt really an argument one can use, but i was merely trying to point out that the concept of the trinity is definately alot harder to gasp and understand than that of ‘Tawheed’ (the belief in One True God worthy of all worship). Thus, it is no surprise to find christians having difficulty answering questions regarding it, or even explaining it for that matter. It simply isnt a bullet-proof concept of belief like that of ‘Tawheed’, the belief system of Islam.

As regards Divine experiences, well friend, if you do not believe God can touch a person’s soul, then I am sorry for you.

There is a difference between believing in miracles and using them as proof for the truthfulness of a faith. Every faith will have followers claiming miracles! Heck i got miracles to share of my own. But im not gonna use them to proof my faith is true. I cannot enumerate how many times i have christians, whether priests or followers, call people to christianity by this method. I guess when you have a complicated system of belief you kinda have to resort other ways of relaying the message to people.

continued…

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

continued…

And this is exactly what Mohammed relied on to convert people. Simplicity for people who could not grasp certain doctrines (not from lack of intelligence, but from lack of instruction). It is known that Mohammed lived on the fringes of the Judeo-Christian world. But living on the fringes did not give him a clear insight to those beliefs, rather, he got a foggy insight. Many Arabs of the time were in the same position. Mohammed took what he understood about Judaism and Catholicism and, removing what he thought too confusing, formed his own faith. Why did he remove the confusing parts? Because he himself did not understand it.

Believe what you wish, but like i said the islamic system of belief is not new and is only a re-affirmation of the message of the previous Prophets and Messengers, that the people restrict all their worship to God alone. Islam does not say as the Jews say that Jesus was a ‘bastard’, nor do we say as the Christians say that he is God or son of God. Rather, he is the Messiah, the son of the virgin Mary, born by the permission of God when He said ‘Be’ and he was. He was from the Mighty Prophets and Messengers, a true servant of God, sent only to call the children of Israel to worshipping God alone.

This claim he made it simple so as to get the people to accept ‘his’ faith, this actually goes against what is historically reported. The arabs of that time were extremely opposed to the message of Muhammed and tried every way they could to stop him from spreading his message. They persecuted and tortured his followers, tried to kill him, insulted, harrased, and abused him… they did alot of harm to him and his followers. And this didnt go on for just a couple years, rather it went on for 2 decades where he was constantly facing trials and tribulations against his enemies, until God finally gave him victory over the people of Makkah. And indeed those tried and tested by the people the most are the Prophets and Messengers!

That is simply not true, and you are either ignorant or intentionally lying (not trying to be accusatory, but that is the only way to explain such a position). The Jews were believers in the One God long before anyone. More than 3000 years ago, and long before Mohammed created his religion, the Jews were praying to the One God. Remember, “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One!” That was in place long before Mohammed was born. Catholicism is the culmination and completion of what God began with the Jews.

Like i said, the Prophet Muhammed came to re-affirm the message of the previous Prophets and Messengers. I dont understand why christianity had to change such a beautiful concept in belief in One God worthy of worship to that of the trinity.

For a religion to be true, it MUST be in conformality with the message of the previous Prophets and Messengers. It could be different in terms of some of its Legal rulings, but it cannot be different with regards to its system of belief. The belief system must be consistent for all times and for all people. The trinity was not present before christianity. Belief in One God was. Islam came to re-establish that.

Again, you imply simplicity equates to truth but you back up that assertion with nothing.

It isnt just about simplicity but also about its nature. One should find it in conformality with ones natural disposition. It should be solid in its foundations and in its branches. It should be bullet-proof from criticism from all angles. It should be easy on the heart to accept, and easy on the mind to gasp and understand.

Truly Islam does practice simplicity. They have to. There is no way to dispute what you have said above.

Im glad you agree Islam is simple. And yes it should be… God’s message should be simple enough for all mankind to gasp.

UNLESS. Unless you can convince people, with no proof whatsoever (indeed, the historical evidence shows just the opposite of what Muslims claim) that the Christian texts are somehow “tainted.” It is a weak way to prove yourself, but that is exactly what Islam claims.

From what i was told by christians, the bible is an interpretation of the message of Jesus and his desiples, not word for word account. Either or, im not here to discuss that topic, atleast not yet. There are more fundamental aspects i think that deserve attention.

May God guide us to the truth,
Hashi

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Hi Reuben,

Thanks for stating the Islam’s view on God’s forgiveness and sins.

You’re most welcome

As a Christian there are many aspects of Islam that I admire and respect because some of your doctrines are so close to ours. And yet in some very important areas we do differ. Usually when it come to them, I’d say we just disagree, unless there is a request for discussion or I thought i might want to clarify with Muslims.

I agree with you. After all, the Quran says: “Verily, you will find the strongest among men in enmity to the believers (Muslims) the Jews and those who are Polythiests, and you will find the nearest in love to the believers (Muslims) those who say: “We are Christians.” That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud.” (5:82) And yes, whatever we differ with we discuss and try to come to terms. We should all be striving for the truth.

Refer your post above. While Islam states that God’s forgiveness is sufficient to save humans of their sins, Christianity goes further than that. It’s not just the sacrifice of Jesus. That sacrifce achieves two pronge result. Frogiveness (which you have) and the overcome of sin and death (which you do not have). Please don’t confuse yourself with the original sin concept since Islam doesn’t believe that. To Christian too that’s is secondary. But the result of the oruginal sin is the fallen nature of humans. Man instinctive desire is to sin. I want to do good thing, but I find myself doing the thing (sin) that I don’t want to do.

Yes humans were created to sin, Islam believes in that as well. Every human was created deficient and weak, prone to fall into sin. As the Quran says: “and man was created weak.” (4:28) But as i said they are not born with sin, until after they have passed maturity stage, then they are accountable for their actions.

This is where Jesus sacrifice comes in. Forgiveness alone is not enough because man sins again and again, and it’s not because he wants to, but its because his flesh is weak (fallen nature) and he usually succumbs to that and sins. Jesus’ victory at the cross put to death this fallen nature (this is where we differs as Islam doesn’t accept Jesus death). The love of God for thus is to prevent us against sin, simply because we cannot do it on our own.

I see where you’re coming from, although again i dont see how the act of the sacrifice is so needed for one to overcome sin, i mean even if u have the strongest of belief in the sacrifice one will still sin. Yes God doesnt want us to sin, but i still dont see how the sacrifice is going to completely prevent a human from committing a sin, perhaps you mean it will help them in restraining themselves from sinning? If thats the case then yes faith in God is without doubt the best way to aid one in restraining from committing sins.

continued…

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

continued…

Of course this is not to say that Christians don’t sin. But they have that assurance they can overcome sinful nature if they believe. And many a time, that’s how we overcome sins.

If overcoming sin is all based on ones inward belief, then this is no different from Islam (except for the belief in the sacrifice). Islam encourages that a person strengthen their faith in God constantly and at all times in their life, through constant rememberance of God, 5 daily prayers, voluntary fasting, attaining good morals and character, etc. These acts strengthen and aid ones heart from being inclined to sinning. And i know christians also preach these sorts of things as ive witnessed many times. This is how one will prevent themselves from falling into sins, because their mind will be preoccupied with belief and rememberance of God, and His reward of Paradise (heaven).

But even the most religious Muslim, or the most religious Christian, they will err and sin, although the sins of the most religious person will not be like the sins of the irreligious person. But the point im trying to make is one will eventually fall short due to negligence, or ignorance, or desires, until they strengthen their inward belief once again with righteous acts and rememberance of God. This is why we rely so heavily on the Mercy of God because we know that it will only be through His mercy that we will be entered into Heaven.

Repentance is from the greatest acts of obedience in Islam. And the God’s Attribute of Mercy is heavily emphasized in Islam. The Prophet Muhammed said: “If you did not commit sins, Allah would sweep you out of existence and replace you by another people who would commit sins, ask for Allah’s forgiveness and He would forgive them.” This ofcourse shouldnt be understood to mean as an encouragement to sin, because God also hates sin, but that God created us in this weak nature (of being bound to sin) so that once we sin, he would see who from us would repent to Him and strive to aquire His mercy. And when a person does this, its a great sign of the truthfulness and sincerity of their faith in God.

God tests humans? maybe yes, I don’t know. Generally Christians don’t dwell on this because we don’t think this is the primary nature of God.

If God didnt create us to test us, then what would be the purpose of creation? The Quran says: “Indeed, I (God) have not created jinn or mankind except that they worship me (Alone).” (51:56) Behind this verse is the purpose of creation, to see who would choose obedience over disobedience, faith over disbelief, worship over desire.

And with regards to the tests we go through life, such as sicknesses, pain, depression, axiety, and all the distressful things in life, then again for the one with faith in God, it is a test to see if they remain patient and strong in their faith in God, and not rebel against him and his decree over them. Likewise those with wealth, power, and status, they are also tested to see if they will use these bounties in a good way and be thankful to God, or if they will do evil with them and be neglectful of God.

We know that God will not allow us the temptation to sin which is beyond our endurance (Jesus sacrifice ensure that).

I definately agree there is no sin that we cannot fight off from falling into. God did not forbid a thing that we are not able to keep away from, nor make obligatory a thing we are unable to do. I just disagree that its the sacrifice that ensured that. Rather like i said earlier, its all about the strength of ones inward faith in His Lord, the stronger it is the more able he is to prevent himself from falling into sin.

May God guide us all to the truth,
Hashi

 

[But_for_Grace]

Even that being said, one cannot argue the statistical improbabilty of Christ fulfilling the Old Testament Prophecies. For one person to fulfill eight prophesies the chances are aproximatly the same as covering the state of texas a foot deep in quarters, marking one, and sending someone blindfolded to find it; all of them, you have a better chance of picking one specific subatomic particle out of the entire universe at random. Yet Christ lived, both the Quran and the Bible name him as the Messiah.

How does Islam defie the odds? Its greatest miracle is the writting of a book.

 

[UnworthySoul]

“Actually the way to God shouldnt be complex or difficult to gasp. It should be simple and natural to accept. It should make complete sense and be free from any sort of confusion or fault. It should be easy for any laymen to understand and believe in. It shouldnt be complex to believe in ones Creator, nor should it seem odd in nature.”

Agreed. And what you explain above is Christ. As far as being free from confusion or fault, the Catholic Church is exactly that. This was Christ’s promise to us. Any confusion or fault lies in the hands of men, not the Church.

“One could say the same about Christianity, that it didnt come until after Jesus.”

**Except that Jesus was a Jew. He came to fulfill Jewish Law. He did not make claims about errors in the Torah as Islam does. **

“Just as you believe christianity is the final message God sent to mankind, we believe Islam is the final message God sent to mankind. It isnt something new, rather it re-affirms the faith of Abraham in the belief of One God, it believes in all the Prophets and Messengers from Adam to Noah to Moses to Abraham to Jesus to finally Muhammed being the final one, and all the 124,000 of prophets and messengers in between.”

And yet the teachings of Mohammed are not in line with the Jewish prophets or Jesus’ teachings.

“It calls to nothing but worshipping God alone without any partners or associates, and making religion purely for God alone. What part of this beautiful system of belief is new?”

**Nothing, Judaism, and by natural extension Christianity do exactly this. Muslims may claim that to believe in the Trinity is to have multiple gods, but that only goes to show that they do not know of what they speak. That’s not a dig at Muslims, it’s just the truth. God is one god, Triune. **

“If we were talking about Hinduism or Buddism or Sikism etc, then obviously these faiths share no similarity with the faith Judaism or Christianity or Islam because atleast these 3 faiths have similarities and believe in many of the same prophets.”

Yes, that much is true. The difference is Jews and Christians believe the same things about the prophets of the Septuagint. Islam has changed what these prophets believed, and justifies this by way of saying the old texts are corrupt. There is absolutley nothing to support this idea. Indeed, archaeology and study of found ancient texts and text fragments show modern translations to be startlingly accurate to the old. No proof of corruption or taint.

“How can the concept of the trinity be compared to believing that God created the Universe?”

How can it not?

“Understanding the trinity is not nearly as easy as believeing God created the universe.”

I disagree. If God is omnipotent, then ANYTHING is open to Him. From creating the universe from nothing to existing in a Triune state. One does not negate the other. Instead the ability to do one only supports the concept of the feasability of doign the other. You would limit God by saying, “That is too difficult to understand so it must not be true.” I would not limit God in this way, especially after He has shown this as Truth. Immutable Truth in Christ Jesus.

“Also, the trinity is not from the beliefs found in a human’s natural disposition, whereas believing in a Creator is.”

With repsect, the people’s who were not of the tribes of Israel often believed in many gods as opposed to the One True God. So while it seems that it is man’s natural state to believe in a higher power, the common way of doing so was through belief in many gods, not belief in the One God. The Jews were the first to know the True God, but they failed to accept Him as Messiah when He came to earth. The Muslims relegate Him to the status of “prophet” and in a sense place Him in the same category as the Jews, that of mere man, prophet and great rabbi, yes, but still mere man. Catholics took His words to heart and were granted the final public revelation from God Himself. There is no need for another, thus, by Catholic belief, Mohammed is not necessary. Indeed, he cannot be a prophet at all as there are no more after Christ’s conquering of death.

con’t…

 

[UnworthySoul]

con’t…

“Yes ill agree with you this isnt really an argument one can use, but i was merely trying to point out that the concept of the trinity is definately alot harder to gasp and understand than that of ‘Tawheed’ (the belief in One True God worthy of all worship).”

Again, the belief in Trinity is not a belief in multiple gods. It is the belief in the One God. Harder to grasp or not makes no difference.

“Thus, it is no surprise to find christians having difficulty answering questions regarding it, or even explaining it for that matter. It simply isnt a bullet-proof concept of belief like that of ‘Tawheed’, the belief system of Islam.”

**Simplicity does not impute correctness. I do not understand how the “simplicity” of Islam is somehow a way to prove it. Let me ask you this, how did God create the universe? You can say He willed it into being, but I ask you specifically *****how ***did it occur? What specific mechanics were involved in this? Difficult, no? Yes, it is, but it still happened.

“There is a difference between believing in miracles and using them as proof for the truthfulness of a faith. Every faith will have followers claiming miracles! Heck i got miracles to share of my own. But im not gonna use them to proof my faith is true. I cannot enumerate how many times i have christians, whether priests or followers, call people to christianity by this method. I guess when you have a complicated system of belief you kinda have to resort other ways of relaying the message to people.”

**Ha! That is a cheap shot. But that’s ok, people attack what they don’t understand. I Could just as easily say that it’s ok for you Muslims to have to use simplicity to generate belief in your religion since people who believe it cannot comprehend anything that is “difficult” to grasp. Not very nice, is it? **On the miracle thing, no Catholic claims that it takes miracles to provide belief in Christ. Rather, miracles are a testament to the validity of the Truth found only in Christ. Why would Mary appear as she does, and implore renewed faith in her Son? Why not implore faith in Mohammed if his path is the one to Truth? Would that not make more sense? Yet, she does not do this. When she appears, it is to focus attention on the sacrifice of her Son. Hundreds of thousands have witnessed the miracles at Fatima and Medjugorge, to name just two. Christians, Muslims, atheists. All of these have seen these miracles. Why are people healed when they pray to Christ? You cannot deny that these things happen, even medical science does not dispute that this does happen. The truth of the matter is that Catholicism does not rely on miracles. But, Catholicism knows better than to tell God what He can and cannot do.

con’t…