You Must Know This Man

[UnworthySoul]

con’t…

Believe what you wish, but like i said the islamic system of belief is not new and is only a re-affirmation of the message of the previous Prophets and Messengers, that the people restrict all their worship to God alone.

I’m sorry but it is in no way a re-affirmation of the previous prophets and messengers. It cannot be because the message is not conducive to the prophets of old. If you read the Bible, then the Quran and Hadith, the latter ascribe different messages from the prophets than the former does. Your claim is because the Bible is corrupt or tainted. Mind you, there is no proof to support this, and all the evidence points to the amazing continued accuracy of the Bible after 2,000 years, but you do not accept this. Nothing to be done about that. If you refuse to accept fact, then you have made your decision.

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Islam does not say as the Jews say that Jesus was a ‘bastard’, nor do we say as the Christians say that he is God or son of God. Rather, he is the Messiah, the son of the virgin Mary, born by the permission of God when He said ‘Be’ and he was. He was from the Mighty Prophets and Messengers, a true servant of God, sent only to call the children of Israel to worshipping God alone.

And yet you base this on the teachings of a man who was born centuries after Christ lived, all the while ignoring what was written from accounts of those who walked with Christ Himself. You ignore the very institution Christ established to instead follow the teachings of a man who had no clear knowledge of Christ. You see some of the Truth but fall short of seeing the complete Truth. The people who wrote the Gospels were students and scribes of those who walked with Christ in person. They personally knew these Apostles and jotted down what they were told. Do you think they would have gone about this in a cavalier manner? Of course not. They were meticulous in what they wrote.

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This claim he made it simple so as to get the people to accept ‘his’ faith, this actually goes against what is historically reported.

What are your historical sources on this?

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The arabs of that time were extremely opposed to the message of Muhammed and tried every way they could to stop him from spreading his message. They persecuted and tortured his followers, tried to kill him, insulted, harrased, and abused him… they did alot of harm to him and his followers. And this didnt go on for just a couple years, rather it went on for 2 decades where he was constantly facing trials and tribulations against his enemies, until God finally gave him victory over the people of Makkah. And indeed those tried and tested by the people the most are the Prophets and Messengers!

Mohammed was no saint. To imply such is just plain false. I will be happy to go into this later because it is a topic with HUGE detail and not fit for this thread.

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Like i said, the Prophet Muhammed came to re-affirm the message of the previous Prophets and Messengers.

I’m sorry but that is simply not true. His own message was far too different and skewed from the original source material to be a continuation of anything. It was an appropriation of what he liked and a negation of what he did not like.

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con’t…

 

[UnworthySoul]

con’t…

I dont understand why christianity had to change such a beautiful concept in belief in One God worthy of worship to that of the trinity.

**Again, and I am getting tired of saying this, WE BELIEVE IN ONE GOD. We believed in One God long before Islam came about, and the Jews, our older brothers believed such long before us. Stop insinuating that we do not. You are not stupid, so I can only assume that you do know this but refuse to admit to it. **

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For a religion to be true, it MUST be in conformality with the message of the previous Prophets and Messengers.
Which is precisely where Mohammed fails. The prophets foretold the coming of Christ. Christ came and fulfilled the Law as prophesied and warned that prophets who come after Him would be false prophets. The need for more revelation through any new prophets was closed because Christ fulfilled the Law. Mohammed is not necessary.

It could be different in terms of some of its Legal rulings, but it cannot be different with regards to its system of belief. The belief system must be consistent for all times and for all people. The trinity was not present before christianity. Belief in One God was. Islam came to re-establish that.

**The Trinity most certainly did exist before Christianity. Christ has always and will always be. But even if Christianity had somehow, by its belief in the Trinity, tainted the belief in One God, Islam is still not necessary. Why? Because there were Jews who did not accept Jesus, therefore, kept to their belief in the One God without Christ. Islam would be trying to supplant the Jews in this case, which it cannot do, as they were the chosen people of God. **

It isnt just about simplicity but also about its nature. One should find it in conformality with ones natural disposition. It should be solid in its foundations and in its branches. It should be bullet-proof from criticism from all angles. It should be easy on the heart to accept, and easy on the mind to gasp and understand.

Read the Bible. Really read it. There is nothing more solid in it’s foundations that that of Catholicism. It IS the Bible fully realized. As far as being bulletproof from criticism, surely you are not implying that Islam is? Look at the science in the Quran as one example, very wrong. Easy to grasp and understand? Read the Gospels. Christ is very easy to understand. But you must open your heart to Him. Ask and you shall receive.

Im glad you agree Islam is simple. And yes it should be… God’s message should be simple enough for all mankind to gasp.

I have said as much. But you mistake my meaning. I have explained why I think it was made to be simple. Not for the reasons you think though.

From what i was told by christians, the bible is an interpretation of the message of Jesus and his desiples, not word for word account. Either or, im not here to discuss that topic, atleast not yet. There are more fundamental aspects i think that deserve attention.

Works for me, that’s for another discussion then. But it was no Catholic who is loyal to the Church who told you that.

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May God guide us to the truth,

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Yes, to the Way, the Truth, and the Life, in Christ Jesus. God Bless you.

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

But for Grace:

Even that being said, one cannot argue the statistical improbabilty of Christ fulfilling the Old Testament Prophecies. For one person to fulfill eight prophesies the chances are aproximatly the same as covering the state of texas a foot deep in quarters, marking one, and sending someone blindfolded to find it; all of them, you have a better chance of picking one specific subatomic particle out of the entire universe at random. Yet Christ lived, both the Quran and the Bible name him as the Messiah.

How does Islam defie the odds? Its greatest miracle is the writting of a book.

Hi again But for Grace,

If im not mistaken, when you say prophecies, you are refering to the foretold miracles of Jesus.

Muslims do not deny the miracles of Jesus, nor the miracles of Moses, nor the miracles of any Prophet and Messenger. Muslims do believe Jesus was able to heal the sick, cure the blind and lepard, raise the dead, breath life into bird made of clay, and all the other miracles he came with to show the people that he was indeed sent by God, and ofcourse him being the son of the Virgin Mary thus even his birth was a miracle and the fact he spoke while he was only a baby.

Here are some verses from the Quran regarding Jesus and his miracles: (Chapter of ‘The Family of Imran’; 3:45-55)

*(Remember) when the angels said: “O Mary! Verily, God gives you the glad tidings of a Word from Him, his name will be the Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to God.”

“He will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood, and he will be one of the righteous.”

She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.” He said: "So (it will be) for God creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: “Be!” and it is.

And He (God) will teach him the Book and the Wisdom, (and) the Torah and the Gospel.

And will make him a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allâh’s Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by God’s Leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe.

And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord. So fear God and obey me.

Truly! God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him (Alone). This is the Straight Path.

Then when Jesus came to know of their disbelief, he said: “Who will be my helpers in God’s Cause?” The Disciples said: “We are the helpers of God; we believe in God, and bear witness that we are Muslims (i.e. we submit to God).”

Our Lord! We believe in what You have sent down, and we follow the Messenger (Jesus); so write us down among those who bear witness.

And they (disbelievers) plotted (to kill Jesus), and God planned too. And God is the Best of the planners.

And (remember) when God said: “O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute.”*

So the Quran, which Muslims believe is the Word of God, affirms the miracles of Jesus and that he was truely the Messiah and a great Prophet and Messenger. Just as Muslims believe the Quran is a miracle, they also must believe in the miracles of Jesus as clearly outlined in the Quran. And this is what God would grant his Prophets and Messengers, that they carry miracles with them that would clearly show that indeed they were true Messengers of God. But the miracles the Prophets came with do not constitute they are divine or worthy of worship in any way, shape, or form.

Its greatest miracle is the writting of a book.

Yes the Prophet Muhammed’s greatest miracle was the revelation of the Quran. But thats just it… its different from the others in that its the only miracle that will last for all generations to come, and a miracle in which we derive all our teachings and guidance from.

And a brief reply to Unworthysoul:

Muslims do not view Jesus as Jews do. Jews disbelieved in Jesus! They described him as a bastard. They rejected his call. Even they were involved in trying to kill him. There is nothing similar between how Muslims believe in Jesus and how Jews believe in Jesus, except that we both do not attribute divinity to him. But we also do not attribute divinity to any human being, whether Muhammed or any other Prophet or Messenger.

 

[r.gonzales]

some pdf artciles that may interest some of you…

prophet muhammad in the bible: intro

prophet muhammad in the bible: moses foretells his coming

prophet muhammad in the bible: 3 distinct prophecies

prophet muhammad in the bible: emigration, truthfulness & tribes of arabia

prophet muhammad in the bible: moses, jesus & muhammad

prophet muhammad in the bible: mentioned by name in song of solomon

prophet muhammad in the bible: the ahmad of all nations

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi Hashi,

Thanks for the Quranic verse (5:82). I am an ordinary Catholic though scripturally each one of us are called to be “prophet, priest and king” of God.

I summarize my position of repentance, God’s forgiveness / mercy and sins.

God forgives our sin if we come to Him in repentance. Repentance is a perquisite of making us right before him. Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

Human is imbued with sinful nature as a result of the sin of Adam from which we are descended. We inherit this nature (the fallen nature). This nature leads us to sin, even in instances where we don’t want to.

**Rom 7:15-25 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. …… 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! **

2 ways we sin :

(1) deliberately through disobedience
(2) deliberately through disobedience. Even though our inner thought is against it, we sin nevertheless as our body is weak and not able to withstand the temptation due to our fallen nature.

So far I think we agree in (1).
As for (2), you attribute it to negligence, ignorance or desire ( I suppose more examples can be added but for simplicity purpose).

I guess our difference is in (2) as you do not believe in the fallen nature of human being.

How to overcome sin?

You said,
“But the point im trying to make is one will eventually fall short due to negligence, or ignorance, or desires, until they strengthen their inward belief once again with righteous acts and rememberance of God. This is why we rely so heavily on the Mercy of God because we know that it will only be through His mercy that we will be entered into Heaven.”

This too happen in Christianity, to lay people and religious alike. Obvious examples are of course the Christian religious like nuns and priests who committed their lives for God.

But despite their lifestyle of prayers, righteous work and service to humanity, some of them are not successful and succumb to grave sin. Why? Because they are also humans with fallen nature. In this case, belief, righteous act and rememberance of God are not sufficient to prevent sin.

Christians believe Jesus death and resurrection destroyed sin and death.

**For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23). ** Death here denotes spiritual death, as because of sin, man is separated from God. The effect of spiritual death manifest to man in many practical ways.

The prime purpose of creation is God’s pleasure and love for His creations. It’s not to test us, though testing do happens in human life. The answer to testing is perseverance. In the face of trial and tribulations, human must persevere in his **hope, faith and love ** for God, for in all things, God will work for good for those who love Him and whom He call according to His purpose (Rom 8:28).

**Hope ** that He has better things in store for us.
**Faith ** to believe in this.
**Love; ** to love God, thus strengthen our hope and faith in God. Love is a power in itself because through love, no law can overcome.

God wants His creation to worship Him, and because of His love, He helps us so that we are able to always continually worship Him.

Thanks for your responses. I’m more the wiser after reading them.

Peace

Reuben

 

[Reuben_J]

My comment on your response to **Unworthy Soul ** about miracles.

Hashi:
“There is a difference between believing in miracles and using them as proof for the truthfulness of a faith. Every faith will have followers claiming miracles! Heck i got miracles to share of my own. But im not gonna use them to proof my faith is true. I cannot enumerate how many times i have christians, whether priests or followers, call people to christianity by this method. I guess when you have a complicated system of belief you kinda have to resort other ways of relaying the message to people.”

Miracles do happen because

(1) Word of God is a living Word. When it is proclaimed it will not return to heaven without doing its purpose.

(2) God is alive - **Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever (Heb 13:8). ** Jesus performed miracles when he walked the earth 2000 years ago. We believe he is still the same, and never change, and so he still does this miracle to those who come to Him.

Miracles happen to give glory to God.

Sometimes it spur / trigger our own conversion / repentance and this should be considered as grace (gift which we don’t earn but given to us anyway because God’s love for us).

Miracle per se is not proof for the truthfulness of a religion ( I agree with you), simply because purported supernatural happenings can also be attributed to the evil one. One must discerned its fruit.

Hashi:
For a religion to be true, it MUST be in conformality with the message of the previous Prophets and Messengers. It could be different in terms of some of its Legal rulings, but it cannot be different with regards to its system of belief. The belief system must be consistent for all times and for all people. The trinity was not present before christianity. Belief in One God was. Islam came to re-establish that.

I guess this topic is not within the confine of this thread. We can show you however that trinity was present before Christianity. This subject is rather sticky because sometimes when discussing this, a Christian or a Muslim won’t allow themselves evolving out of their respective religious mould, resulting stalemate in discussion and ended up not able see each other rationale.

As a Christian listening to your statement in this Catholic Forum regarding Islam re-establishes conformity of previous messages must be taken with a pinch of salt. Unless you can expand on the legal rulings though I will not foresee myself agreeing to you.

Peace.

God bless you.

Reuben.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

So the Quran, which Muslims believe is the Word of God, affirms the miracles of Jesus and that he was truely the Messiah and a great Prophet and Messenger. Just as Muslims believe the Quran is a miracle, they also must believe in the miracles of Jesus as clearly outlined in the Quran. And this is what God would grant his Prophets and Messengers, that they carry miracles with them that would clearly show that indeed they were true Messengers of God. But the miracles the Prophets came with do not constitute they are divine or worthy of worship in any way, shape, or form.

You say Jesus was truely the Messiah.

Can you explain what you understand by Jesus as the Messiah?

Thanks.

Reuben

 

[Booklover]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

Hi again But for Grace,

Muslims do not deny the miracles of Jesus, nor the miracles of Moses, nor the miracles of any Prophet and Messenger. Muslims do believe Jesus was able to heal the sick, cure the blind and lepard, raise the dead, breath life into bird made of clay, and all the other miracles he came with to show the people that he was indeed sent by God, and ofcourse him being the son of the Virgin Mary thus even his birth was a miracle and the fact he spoke while he was only a baby.

I’m glad to hear that you at least believe in Jesus’ miracles, since you’ve stripped him of everything else!

Yes the Prophet Muhammed 's greatest miracle was the revelation of the Quran. But thats just it… its different from the others in that its the only miracle that will last for all generations to come, and a miracle in which we derive all our teachings and guidance from.

But isn’t it amazing that your prophet, who declared himself “the seal of the prophets” who was a mightier prophet than Jesus couldn’t perform any miracles like Jesus did, all he got was a book!

 

[Booklover]

r.gonzales:

some pdf artciles that may interest some of you…

prophet muhammad in the bible: intro

prophet muhammad in the bible: moses foretells his coming

prophet muhammad in the bible: 3 distinct prophecies

prophet muhammad in the bible: emigration, truthfulness & tribes of arabia

prophet muhammad in the bible: moses, jesus & muhammad

prophet muhammad in the bible: mentioned by name in song of solomon

prophet muhammad in the bible: the ahmad of all nations

You never give up, do you? Nothing in the Bible says anything about Mohammed! Muslims are the ones who have picked bits and pieces of it and custom fitted them to their false prophet and thus distorted scripture!

 

[chb03c]

r.gonzales:

some pdf artciles that may interest some of you…

prophet muhammad in the bible: intro

prophet muhammad in the bible: moses foretells his coming

prophet muhammad in the bible: 3 distinct prophecies

prophet muhammad in the bible: emigration, truthfulness & tribes of arabia

prophet muhammad in the bible: moses, jesus & muhammad

prophet muhammad in the bible: mentioned by name in song of solomon

prophet muhammad in the bible: the ahmad of all nations

I have read some of these articles before. There claims go completely against what most scholars and theologians have been saying for thousands of years. If anyone would like a great laugh go ahead and read them.

PS the best one is the one about muhammad’s name netioned in song of solomon. Very amuzing.

 

[UnworthySoul]

r.gonzales:

some pdf artciles that may interest some of you…

prophet muhammad in the bible: intro

prophet muhammad in the bible: moses foretells his coming

prophet muhammad in the bible: 3 distinct prophecies

prophet muhammad in the bible: emigration, truthfulness & tribes of arabia

prophet muhammad in the bible: moses, jesus & muhammad

prophet muhammad in the bible: mentioned by name in song of solomon

prophet muhammad in the bible: the ahmad of all nations

It’s a good thing you don’t believe any of these so-called “prophecies” from the Bible. I mean, you can’t believe them. How can you? You Muslims believe the Bible is corrupt. That means these “prophecies” cannot be believed. But man, are they ever FUNNY!

 

[Mimi]

In reply to the poster who challenged the complexity of Catholicism, i.e., “Why can’t it be simple like Islam?”

How about:
God is love, and he who abides in love, abides in God and God in him.
And:
What is the greatest commandment (Jesus was asked)?
Love one another as I have loved you.
(also “Love your neigbor as yourself”)

Perhaps I don’t give chapter and verse; I do not have that memorized yet! Forgive me. But this is what I have learned and it’s about as simple as it gets. Easy to live out, no!

Maybe some other kind Christian will give the Bible verses I intend in the above paragraph. Thank you in advance!

The scriptures and Jesus’ message to us can be understood on many levels. I think the reason we get so wordy and intellectualize the scriptures is people were created to think and USE their brains. Many folks think it’s the best use of time to think, explain, teach, and philosophize. Thank God for all of them! After all, there have been quite a few thinkers since Jesus walked the earth.

Peace to all,
Mimi

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Hi Reuben,

I guess our difference is in (2) as you do not believe in the fallen nature of human being.

Yes basically thats our difference i guess. I mean, yes humans are bound to sin, but we dont believe it in the level christianity takes that concept to i guess.

Obvious examples are of course the Christian religious like nuns and priests who committed their lives for God.

But despite their lifestyle of prayers, righteous work and service to humanity, some of them are not successful and succumb to grave sin. Why? Because they are also humans with fallen nature. In this case, belief, righteous act and rememberance of God are not sufficient to prevent sin.

Here is where we differ again. One can commit their entire life to the service and worship of God, but the minute they indulge in obsenity or indecency or crimes, etc, they fall into that due to their lack of faith. We believe one with perfect faith would never fall into major sins or even come near them for that matter. The Prophets and Messengers never commited major sins or came near them. They were not perfect in the sense they never erred or made a mistake, but their faith in God was at such a level they never fell into the major sins and obscenities nor did they even come near them.

A Priest/Nun (or male or female Shaikh in Islam), if they fell into the major sins, no matter their title, they did it due to their lack of faith in God, even if it for that moment they lacked faith and then quickly repented. The Prophet Muhammed said “A believer is not a believer so long as he is engaged in fornication”, meaning while a believer is commiting a major sin, at that moment its as if his faith is lifted from him and hoovered around him like a cloud. He is still a Muslim ofcourse, but while engaging in that major sin his faith is severely lacking. Once he leaves off that sin, his faith returns to him but not in the level it was before, and once he repents from it and works righteous deeds his faith is increased back to a higher level and is perfected once again.

Christians believe Jesus death and resurrection destroyed sin and death.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23). Death here denotes spiritual death, as because of sin, man is separated from God. The effect of spiritual death manifest to man in many practical ways.

There is one thing i still dont understand and that is how does believing in the sacrifice save one from committing sins? And if one believes in the sacrifice and yet indulges in sin, are they automatically excused of their sin or do they still have to repent to avoid punishment from God? Basically what sort of concequences does a believer in the sacrifice get for his sins if he doesnt repent from them?

As explained before, in Islam one who sins is expected to repent and do righteous deeds to expiate for his/her sins. If they do not repent and die with major sins, they are under the Will of God, He will either punish them by His Justice or Forgive them by His Mercy.

continued…

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

continued…

The prime purpose of creation is God’s pleasure and love for His creations. It’s not to test us, though testing do happens in human life. The answer to testing is perseverance. In the face of trial and tribulations, human must persevere in his hope, faith and love for God, for in all things, God will work for good for those who love Him and whom He call according to His purpose (Rom 8:28).

If God did not create us to test us with regards to faith, then what does it matter what we believe with regards to Him? Also, if the purpose is God’s pleasure and love for his creation, why not just admit us all to paradise instead of us being here in this earth full of evil and harm?

I believe, as the Quran says, we were created to worship God, and as a test to see who among us would worship Him and accept the truth, and who among us would reject worshiping Him and accept falsehood. If one truely wants Paradise and Ever-Lasting Bliss they will strive for it. Those who do righteousness are not equal to those who do evil. And if one chooses righteousness, then they have indeed passed the mightiest test and can hope for God’s mercy and His Paradise.

Hope that He has better things in store for us.
Faith to believe in this.
Love; to love God, thus strengthen our hope and faith in God. Love is a power in itself because through love, no law can overcome.

In Islam, a Muslim is also obligated to have complete Hope in God for all things such as His mercy and forgiveness, His help and assistance, etc, and he is also ofcourse obligated to Love God, Love Him more than anything and everything. He is also obligated to Fear Him, Fear His wrath and punishment so as to avoid disobedience and sin. Paradise is associated with Hope, and the hellfire is associated with Fear. We hope for the reward of paradise and fear punihsment of the hellfire. We believe one cannot worship God without all 3 of these aspects of faith (Love, Hope, and Fear).

Thanks for your responses. I’m more the wiser after reading them.

Most welcome, and i appreciate your responses too in helping me understand the christianity more.

As a Christian listening to your statement in this Catholic Forum regarding Islam re-establishes conformity of previous messages must be taken with a pinch of salt. Unless you can expand on the legal rulings though I will not foresee myself agreeing to you.

Thats fine. My point again isnt that our legal rulings are the same, they do have similar concepts but they are not the same in the details. But in terms of Creed, my point is that creed should be one and the same throughout the beginning and end of Mankind. How is it logical to have different concepts of belief and at the same time all of them be correct? There is only one way to believe in God, from the time of Adam until the day of judgement.

You say Jesus was truely the Messiah.

Can you explain what you understand by Jesus as the Messiah?

Messiah is basically someone who is foretold of his coming and choosen by God to fulfill a significant mission. Jesus is called the Messiah (Al-Masih in arabic) because he was chosen by God for the mission of relaying the Message of God and was foretold previously of his coming such that the Children of Israel knew of his coming. After his coming, it became a test for them as some of them (ie.the Jews and polythiests) rejected him while others believed in him. Also, in arabic, the word al-Masih , its root is Mas-h which means ‘to touch’ or ‘wipe on’. And from the major miracles of Jesus was that he would touch those afflicted with an illness and they would be healed (by God’s permission). Also, Jesus is expected to return to the earth to complete his mission and kill the Dajjal (ie. Anti-Christ).

I appreciate your responses Reuben,
May God guide all of us to the truth,
Hashi

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Hi Mimi,

How about:
God is love, and he who abides in love, abides in God and God in him.
And:
What is the greatest commandment (Jesus was asked)?
Love one another as I have loved you.
(also “Love your neigbor as yourself”)

I dont agree God is ‘Love’, i believe God Loves and is Loved but He is not ‘Love’ itself. I dont worship Love, i worship the Supreme Being through loving Him as well as fearing in Him and hoping in Him.

In Islam, in the scriptures we have, there are over 100 Names of God revealed by God either in the Quran or in the saying of the Prophet Muhammed, and we also know there are much more Names we dont know such that either God did not reveal to creation or only revealed to some of creation. And along with every Name of God is an attribute(s). For example, God describes Himself as The All-Mighty in the Quran, thus He possesses the atttribute of Might and Power such that it encompasses all things and is perfect in nature.

One can refer to a list of them in the following link:
salafipublications.com/sps/downloads/pdf/AQD030013.pdf

And their explanation (only the first 30 Names are available thus far):
salafipublications.com/sps/downloads/pdf/AQD030015.pdf

Perhaps I don’t give chapter and verse; I do not have that memorized yet! Forgive me. But this is what I have learned and it’s about as simple as it gets. Easy to live out, no!

Im not really asking for verses about it, just merely trying to point out its complexity (in my opinion), as well as comparing it to the Islamic Creed. Perhaps we are not looking at it from the same angle. I am looking at it more from the reasoning and logic behind it, how it makes sense, is it perfect in its structure, is it a natural way to believe in God, etc. For some perhaps they can make sense out of it from a different angle, as you have given above. Yes i have been told God is Love, if im not mistaken this is engrained in the christian faith as ive heard this from christians many times. But again, even from that angle i dont see how it makes sense out of the trinity.

I appreciate your reply though, Thank you.
Hashi

 

[r.gonzales]

Booklover:

You never give up, do you? Nothing in the Bible says anything about Mohammed! Muslims are the ones who have picked bits and pieces of it and custom fitted them to their false prophet and thus distorted scripture!

some advice: try reading the articles before commenting.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Booklover:

WHO IS JESUS CHRIST?

He was born in an obscure village the child of a peasant woman.
He grew up in still another village, where he worked in a carpenter shop until he was 30. Then for three years he was an itinerant preacher.
He never wrote a book.
He never held an office.
He never had a family or owned a house.
He didn’t go to college.
He never traveled 200 miles from the place where he was born.
He did none of the things one usually associates with greatness.
He had no credentials but himself.
He was only 33 when public opinion turned against him.
His friends ran away.
He was turned over to his enemies and went through the mockery of a trial.
He was nailed to a cross between two thieves.
While he was dying, his executioners gambled for his clothing, the only property he had on earth.
When he was dead, he was laid in a borrowed grave through the pity of a friend.

And on the third day He rose again from the dead;​

He ascended into heaven;
He is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence He shall come again in Glory to judge the living and the dead;
and of His Kingdom there shall be no end.

To Him be Glory for ever ! ##

Twenty centuries have come and gone,and today he is the central figure of the human race, the leader of mankind’s progress.

All the armies that ever marched, all the navies that ever sailed, all the parliaments that ever sat, all the kings that ever reigned, put together, have not affected the life of man on earth as much as that One Solitary Life.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

hawk:

Original sin is the state of sin, the state that came about from the fall.

Can I ask a question? Why did God put adam and eve in the garden? Were they not to be the calphs of the world?
So why were they in the garden?

God made man as His fellow-worker and representative (see Genesis 1.26 following); almost, as His vicar. Which is a far higher notion of man than any which can be found among the neighbours of Israel at the time.​

How could they be caliphs ? God has no successor, but the caliphs were the successors of Muhammad ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

Hi Unworthysoul,

I had replied to your post only to have the site go offline and i lost my whole reply. Anyhow, i thought it would be important to reply to your comments as i do not agree with some of what you said.

Actually the way to God shouldnt be complex or difficult to gasp. It should be simple and natural to accept. It should make complete sense and be free from any sort of confusion or fault. It should be easy for any laymen to understand and believe in. It shouldnt be complex to believe in ones Creator, nor should it seem odd in nature.

Is that really for us to say though ? If God calls us to believe in Him, it is not our business to dictate terms to Him.​

If it is God Who comes to us - it is for Him to say what our needs are. Man cannot diagnose his diseases as well as God can see them.

The qualities required may seem straightfoward enough -but what seems simple and natural to one person, may well seem shallow and wanting in depth to someone else. There is not, AFAICS, a way of commending one religion to all men for exactly the same reasons, which is what that suggestion requires. What matters, is not how the religion impresses us, but the God Whom it seeks to serve. The God of the OT & the NT & of Christian experience, at least, is a God Who acts and speaks, a God Who is not impeded by the difficulties, hinted at in your remarks above, in the character of the religions of his adorers. He is greater than, and not to be hindered by, the religions of Jews & Christians. So if He wants someone to have saving faith in Him, they infallibly will. ##

[paragraph snipped]

How can the concept of the trinity be compared to believing that God created the Universe? Understanding the trinity is not nearly as easy as believeing God created the universe.

Of course it isn’t easy - it’s impossible To understand the Trinity, would be to understand God. We don’t need to understand - but we do have to believe.​

For some, believing in an omnipotent Divine Creator of all things will be the difficulty that believing in a Triune God is for others. ##

Also, the trinity is not from the beliefs found in a human’s natural disposition, whereas believing in a Creator is.

However, there are analogies to the Trinity in human nature and experience. As - by the Christian account - a Triune God created us, this is not surprising.​

Yes ill agree with you this isnt really an argument one can use, but i was merely trying to point out that the concept of the trinity is definately alot harder to gasp and understand than that of ‘Tawheed’ (the belief in One True God worthy of all worship). Thus, it is no surprise to find christians having difficulty answering questions regarding it, or even explaining it for that matter. It simply isnt a bullet-proof concept of belief like that of ‘Tawheed’, the belief system of Islam.

Why has it to be “bullet-proof” ? As long as it is true, weaknesses in our speaking of it is not too important.​

One of the differences between Islam and Christianity seems to be this: Islam seems to be built upon reason - Christianity exceeds reason, and is built on the Cross. Which was a completely unreasonable act of God. More than that, reason is not enough for the proclamation of the Good News of the Kingdom of God - for the Good News
is made known not by man’s wisdom, or by any human brilliance or power at all, but by the power of the Holy Spirit and by the Death of Christ Crucified. The Cross is the supreme example of the Wisdom of God - reason cannot comprehend it. And the Cross is a revelation of the Love of the Triune God. ##

There is a difference between believing in miracles and using them as proof for the truthfulness of a faith. Every faith will have followers claiming miracles! Heck i got miracles to share of my own. But im not gonna use them to proof my faith is true. I cannot enumerate how many times i have christians, whether priests or followers, call people to christianity by this method. I guess when you have a complicated system of belief you kinda have to resort other ways of relaying the message to people.

Agreed - miracles mean nothing in isolation. They reveal God’s power - if they are His work - only to those with eyes to see it; for those who do not believe in the God they proclaim, they are of no saving benefit, but can be explained away. God’s acts can always be explained away - another reason why a religion which is in principle objectively perfect will not convince all.​

For people can accept only what they have the capacity to accept. So if they have been granted the capacity & the ability & the grace to believe what God desires they believe, it is needless for a religion to be perfect: they are able to receive any religion they have the capacity to be prepared for. Not that it is entirely accurate to call Christianity a religion - but that is BTW ##

 

[Reuben_J]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

continued…
Messiah is basically someone who is foretold of his coming and choosen by God to fulfill a significant mission. Jesus is called the Messiah (Al-Masih in arabic) because he was chosen by God for the mission of relaying the Message of God and was foretold previously of his coming such that the Children of Israel knew of his coming. After his coming, it became a test for them as some of them (ie.the Jews and polythiests) rejected him while others believed in him. Also, in arabic, the word al-Masih , its root is Mas-h which means ‘to touch’ or ‘wipe on’. And from the major miracles of Jesus was that he would touch those afflicted with an illness and they would be healed (by God’s permission). Also, Jesus is expected to return to the earth to complete his mission and kill the Dajjal (ie. Anti-Christ).

I appreciate your responses Reuben,
May God guide all of us to the truth,
Hashi

Hi Hashi, while waiting for me to address your response, I hope you don’t mind I need a clarification from you. From a Muslim’s perspective, is there any specific mission that Jesus is to achieve as intended by God? What is the message of God that Jesus needs to relay? Is there any specific mention on this?

Thanks.

God bless you.

Reuben