You only think your gay

[SMGS127]

Okay encouragement. I think encouragement with the messed up narcissistic society we have right now is essentially active recruitment. There are a lot of kids searching, curious and vulnerable. Who are also selfish, under-catechized, lack good judgment and see non-conformity as an ideal. I think encouraging them is wrong. A certain amount of conformity is good and necessary. There are upper and lower limits of acceptable (abnormal, normal, subnormal) behavior. Otherwise, everything goes which we seem to be embracing. You see it throughout the secular culture and especially media.

You can hardly watch TV or watch a movie or read a paper without the gay stuff being shoved in your face. Hence my signature below…

And I am not a fundamentalist Christian. I am a cradle Catholic. I have friends with SSA too.

My point is that encouragement isn’t a negative thing in itself. Basically, the basic message of LGBT groups is completely in line with Catholic teaching. That is to say, the basic message of LGBT groups to kids is “hey, you’re a great kid, no matter if you’re gay, straight, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender.” Yes, LGBT groups go too far in accepting sexual behavior as normal. However, when a gay or lesbian teenager faces a choice between a religion or religious parents telling them “you’re not gay,” “it’s just a phase,” “you just haven’t met the right guy/girl yet,” or, to quote the direct title of this thread, “you only think you’re gay,” and an LGBT group saying “hey it’s okay that you’re gay; you’re still a good person and your sexual orientation means nothing as far as your moral nature,” who do you think they’re going to choose? Heck, just taking that basic message, the LGBT groups are typically more in line with Christian teaching than parents are.

So I ask you back, why do you criticize LGBT groups for encouraging kids to accept and love themselves? If anything, I think the Catholic Church should take a lesson from them and put out the exact same outreach programs, from anti-gay-bullying programs to projects that mirror the “It Gets Better” project to enlisting the help of gay and lesbian practicing Catholics to socialize with these teenagers and show that they’re not alone. Because the basic message is moral; the basic message is Catholic. Where the problem resides is not in the basic message, but in the lax attitude LGBT groups take in the behavior of said teenagers after the message has gotten across. And this is where the Church should step in and say “here are the boundaries of the Church.” But that only comes after setting in the basic message of self-love and self-acceptance, regardless of sexual orientation (or body type or any other immutable characteristic).

 

[migueltojose]

This is an interesting perspective that I can’t seem to wrap my head around. I’d like to think that there’s more purpose to life than just creating more - hopefully we are enriching the world around us and the lives of others through love and kindness, as well as using our gifts and energy to contribute to the good of society. I don’t see abstinence as a form of birth control, and personally, I’d rather be single than in an unhealthy relationship, or in a relationship with someone who doesn’t want to be in one with me - whether for lack of attraction or other reasons. I certainly hope that if I ever do settle down with someone, it is because both of us love and care for each other and have similar hopes and goals, and not because we feel obligated to use our bits and pieces to make life, in order to live a full life.

There’s a lot of I, I me, me, mine there… just sayin… of course it’s not all about procreation… although if you read ‘humanae vitae’ and ‘theology of the body’ both Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul ll seem to dwell on it quite a bit… the unitive nature of the marriage act, and the resulting love and respect, sacrifice and surrender is paramount… transcendent… marriage is a sacrament… procreation is like a side benefit… but it’s also about vocation… basically the church says there are these vocations:

…vocation is especially associated with a divine call to service to the Church and humanity through particular vocational life commitments such as marriage to a particular person, consecration as a religious, ordination to priestly ministry in the Church and even a holy life as a single person…

My comments were directed at the previous comments and topic of the thread.

And abstinence is the only form of birth control. All others are artificial.

 

[SuperLuigi]

And what do you think would happen if you told a gay person (in person) that “You’re not gay, you only think you’re gay”??

Might depend on the persons’s race and religion if it happens in the West.

 

[Rin]

If homosexuality was in fact private, there would be not gay agenda, no parades, special interest groups or gay rights legislation.

Except before the “agenda” (which I still say doesn’t exist, but oh well), parades, interest groups and gay rights legislation, gay people tried to keep it private. Which actually worked in many places, for centuries if not millennia. Being gay wasn’t easy, but it was tolerable. Even sometimes implicitly facilitated by common cultural “alibis”, like having a butler but no wife. But then, police started actively hunting down gay people (though I’m sure the nobles got away as usual), even resorting to entrapment to root them out. This happened in my country as well as your country.

If (predominantly Protestant; Catholic legislation was generally less harsh) societies had not been so intent on hunting gay people down, I don’t think we’d have the movements we have now. They rose as a response to, to say it frankly, society treating them like animals. “We” have “ourselves” to thank for this.

 

[kozlosap]

My point is that encouragement isn’t a negative thing in itself. Basically, the basic message of LGBT groups is completely in line with Catholic teaching. That is to say, the basic message of LGBT groups to kids is “hey, you’re a great kid, no matter if you’re gay, straight, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender.” Yes, LGBT groups go too far in accepting sexual behavior as normal. However, when a gay or lesbian teenager faces a choice between a religion or religious parents telling them “you’re not gay,” “it’s just a phase,” “you just haven’t met the right guy/girl yet,” or, to quote the direct title of this thread, “you only think you’re gay,” and an LGBT group saying “hey it’s okay that you’re gay; you’re still a good person and your sexual orientation means nothing as far as your moral nature,” who do you think they’re going to choose? Heck, just taking that basic message, the LGBT groups are typically more in line with Christian teaching than parents are.

So I ask you back, why do you criticize LGBT groups for encouraging kids to accept and love themselves? If anything, I think the Catholic Church should take a lesson from them and put out the exact same outreach programs, from anti-gay-bullying programs to projects that mirror the “It Gets Better” project to enlisting the help of gay and lesbian practicing Catholics to socialize with these teenagers and show that they’re not alone. Because the basic message is moral; the basic message is Catholic. Where the problem resides is not in the basic message, but in the lax attitude LGBT groups take in the behavior of said teenagers after the message has gotten across. And this is where the Church should step in and say “here are the boundaries of the Church.” But that only comes after setting in the basic message of self-love and self-acceptance, regardless of sexual orientation (or body type or any other immutable characteristic).

Awesome post SGMS! Thank you so much for all of your “first person” posts about being a gay human being. Those who refuse to believe that one is born straight or LGBTQ will never understand what their ignorance and phobias do to teenagers and young adults who are gay. The suicide rate for LGBTQ young people is absolutely horrendous. I taught for a huge school district and was part of the district crisis management team and I was shocked when we were given a presentation by the DHHS on the suicide rate. If a parent is more concerned with so-called scandal than having a well adjusted child, whether they are straight or gay, then I pity them.
LGBTQ people are not going back into the closet, ever, and that is an awesome thing!

 

[confusedgirl]

(Just correcting a technicality. Women don’t urinate from the vagina.)

Back to regular programming.

Actually if you think about it… anatomically, men and women urinate from the same place… just a bit of a different set up

 

[confusedgirl]

My point is that encouragement isn’t a negative thing in itself. Basically, the basic message of LGBT groups is completely in line with Catholic teaching. That is to say, the basic message of LGBT groups to kids is “hey, you’re a great kid, no matter if you’re gay, straight, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender.” Yes, LGBT groups go too far in accepting sexual behavior as normal. However, when a gay or lesbian teenager faces a choice between a religion or religious parents telling them “you’re not gay,” “it’s just a phase,” “you just haven’t met the right guy/girl yet,” or, to quote the direct title of this thread, “you only think you’re gay,” and an LGBT group saying “hey it’s okay that you’re gay; you’re still a good person and your sexual orientation means nothing as far as your moral nature,” who do you think they’re going to choose? Heck, just taking that basic message, the LGBT groups are typically more in line with Christian teaching than parents are.

So I ask you back, why do you criticize LGBT groups for encouraging kids to accept and love themselves? If anything, I think the Catholic Church should take a lesson from them and put out the exact same outreach programs, from anti-gay-bullying programs to projects that mirror the “It Gets Better” project to enlisting the help of gay and lesbian practicing Catholics to socialize with these teenagers and show that they’re not alone. Because the basic message is moral; the basic message is Catholic. Where the problem resides is not in the basic message, but in the lax attitude LGBT groups take in the behavior of said teenagers after the message has gotten across. And this is where the Church should step in and say “here are the boundaries of the Church.” But that only comes after setting in the basic message of self-love and self-acceptance, regardless of sexual orientation (or body type or any other immutable characteristic).

It is actually interesting that you bring this up but like I did know someone in high school that was gay 3 years later, I learn that he is now engaged to a female. I agree with you though. I think chewing up a person without knowing them is what leads to rebellious anti church behavior. Often teens come from strict religious homes where they are told they are sick and are beaten with bibles. I have heard horror stories about how fathers use the bible to condone violent actions on their homosexual child. I think for some people the sin detector is on so high they feel its their job to “inform” folks that homosexuality is wrong but they never think that they are people just like you. I mean I grew up in a church where I was told hey were demons who need to be sent back to hell. But I see nice people who just want to find a place where they won’t be persecuted. Anyways, I feel as a person who believes that Jesus wants us to be kind to everyone no matter the color of their skin, their height, age, social status, or even sexual orientation, that my first job is to also kind and understanding. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar right?

 

[SMGS127]

It is actually interesting that you bring this up but like I did know someone in high school that was gay 3 years later, I learn that he is now engaged to a female. I agree with you though. I think chewing up a person without knowing them is what leads to rebellious anti church behavior. Often teens come from strict religious homes where they are told they are sick and are beaten with bibles. I have heard horror stories about how fathers use the bible to condone violent actions on their homosexual child. I think for some people the sin detector is on so high they feel its their job to “inform” folks that homosexuality is wrong but they never think that they are people just like you. I mean I grew up in a church where I was told hey were demons who need to be sent back to hell. But I see nice people who just want to find a place where they won’t be persecuted. Anyways, I feel as a person who believes that Jesus wants us to be kind to everyone no matter the color of their skin, their height, age, social status, or even sexual orientation, that my first job is to also kind and understanding. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar right?

Beautiful post

 

[PutresOmega]

There is never a need to publicly defend something that is sin.

Who said being gay is a sin? You may want to read the catechism concerning the difference between the Church’s view on homosexual orientation and homosexual acts a bit more before you engage in a discussion about it in the future. I expect better from someone with a title like Forum Elder quite frankly.

Speaking of allowing dangerous rhetoric to spread un-rebutted, there no more comparison between Russia and Uganda than that they both have laws.

The Occupy Pedophilia movement have actively targeted gay kids as young as 15 luring them to what they think is a date only to brutalize them on camera and ruin their lives. The rhetoric of Ivan Okhlobystin goes generally unchallenged and only sharpens with time. The difference between Russia and Uganda is the same as the difference between a guy who tortures neighborhood pets and the guy who tortures then kills neighborhood pets. It won’t take long for the former to grow into the latter unless pressure is kept on to prevent it.

You are using rhetoric yourself, in other words.

My rhetoric is based off the evidence and personal testimony of my brethren while your side’s rhetoric is based off lies as I am going to prove by continuing to carefully dissect your reply to show that it is built on a foundation of falsehood. Don’t take it personally. You have no more the ability to understand my side’s perspective than you have the ability to understand what it is like to have horseshoes put on. You have internalized falsehoods and they have blinded you to the truth.

Making gay rights parades illegal is nothing at all compared to imprisoning and executing people who are gay.

The government banning visibility and political action on behalf of homosexuals and LGBT people will allow the wicked to control the rhetoric and paint the LGBT as whatever they like: pedophiles, recruiters, spreaders of disease, and so on. Visibility helps us show the next generation that we are no different from them. The laws will lead to the same dehumanization of homosexuals that the history revisionists and faux scientists of our own nation tried to get away with and fail (eg Scott Lively and his ilk). The nightmare is already there for a lot of LGBT youth as the documentary Children 404 and the internet testimony of several of them indicate. Not much different from black people during the Civil Rights era in the US. And even then, one could make the argument that at least they weren’t still slaves. That didn’t stop people from terrorizing them though.

Also, the side of evil, is to say the least, open to debate.

Not really. Morality isn’t some nebulous gray area. Kids and adults are suffering in both Russia and Uganda due to similar laws that silence and dehumanize LGBT people allowing rhetoric based off proven falsehood to travel around about them.

Not speaking, or restricting free speech, may be wrong, or even sinful. However, Jesus said whoever causes a little one to stumble is in bigger trouble. Perhaps Putin did not want a millstone with his name on it.

You aren’t such a fool that you believe a former KGB officer who actively saber rattles and has helped arm people who have killed civiliians in the Middle East gives a damn about what God thinks or the morality of the situation. You can dance about in little circles arguing apologetic for the devil and say a few prayers to Saint Putin for show, if you like, but don’t think for a second that you are fooling the majority with that song and dance. Those days are behind you. You are on the wrong side, morally and historically.* It is that simple…*

You can hardly watch TV or watch a movie or read a paper without the gay stuff being shoved in your face. Hence my signature below…

And I am thankful we do have representation in the media that is more positive these days (your Modern Family and so on) since it seems clear that there are still people like you trying to falsely claim we recruit children into a lifestyle. I will link a letter sent to the president of Uganda and signed by 200 scientists specializing in disciplines ranging from neuroscience to psychology who carefully debunk a lot of the myths, including that one.

wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/files/2014/02/Uganda-Scientific-Information.pdf

 

[pnewton]

Who said being gay is a sin?

No one has, at least not here.

The Occupy Pedophilia movement have actively targeted gay kids as young as 15 luring them to what they think is a date only to brutalize them on camera and ruin their lives.

There has never been a country in the history of the world that is free of crime. Codifying a death penalty, or even long term imprisonment is not the same as have people in a country that will kidnap or kill others. By this standard, the United States also experiences murder.

My rhetoric is based off the evidence and personal testimony of my brethren while your side’s rhetoric is based off lies as I am going to prove by continuing to carefully dissect your reply to show that it is built on a foundation of falsehood. Don’t take it personally.

If you do not want me to take anything personally, then do not personally assign me a side. This isn’t grade school and we do not get to divvy people up.

You aren’t such a fool that you believe a former KGB officer who actively saber rattles and has helped arm people who have killed civiliians in the Middle East gives a damn about what God thinks or the morality of the situation. You can dance about in little circles arguing apologetic for the devil and say a few prayers to Saint Putin for show,…

Weren’t you the one criticizing rhetoric? You have a double standard.

No one is dancing, not that you could see.
No one is suggesting that any non-Catholic be canonized.
No one is denying that Putin was in the KGB, or that he has never engaged in immoral activities in that role.

So, if you do not like others to engage in uncharitable name-calling and harmful rhetoric, then it is incumbent on you to show this desire by doing likewise.

“Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law without contradiction.” Emmanuel Kant

 

[AnnieHall]

There’s a lot of I, I me, me, mine there… just sayin… of course it’s not all about procreation… although if you read ‘humanae vitae’ and ‘theology of the body’ both Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul ll seem to dwell on it quite a bit… the unitive nature of the marriage act, and the resulting love and respect, sacrifice and surrender is paramount… transcendent… marriage is a sacrament… procreation is like a side benefit… but it’s also about vocation… basically the church says there are these vocations:

…vocation is especially associated with a divine call to service to the Church and humanity through particular vocational life commitments such as marriage to a particular person, consecration as a religious, ordination to priestly ministry in the Church and even a holy life as a single person…

My comments were directed at the previous comments and topic of the thread.

And abstinence is the only form of birth control. All others are artificial.

That’s all true, thank you for the thoughtful reply. Sorry if I took things a bit off topic, honestly I was thinking about that post that I replied in more general terms, not just towards lbg people, but also towards any straight and single people. Although probably not “general” since, as you can easily see by the I/me/mine, I was also responding thinking of myself - questioning if there are people who believe that all people are called to have children, and then giving my personal thoughts and opinions based on that idea.

You are correct of course about abstinence being birth control, but what I was trying to say is that it is one that is acceptable by the Church - especially for those that are single or not married. I read the original post as saying that abstinence is selfish. Rereading now, I think the point was more towards the fact that homosexual sex is birth control, and not abstinence, but if the point is that they’re denying the chance of life, so they should enter into straight marriages and make babies, then I think that carries over into an opinion that abstinence is also a selfish decision.

I’m really struggling to get these thoughts out into logical written explanations, I’m hoping this makes sense! Even if it’s not how the original post that I replied to was intended, that’s how I interpreted it, and the line of thought that I was responding to.

My main point was that abstinence is the best option for some people, and that I disagree with the idea that everyone who is capable should enter into marriage and have children. It makes sense to me (again, with the I/me/mine, because I don’t know how else to explain my own personal opinions or musings) that some people just aren’t called to that life, but that doesn’t make them any less important, and it doesn’t mean they are doing anything wrong or causing the downfall of society by not creating children that potentially could do amazing things in the future. If that were the case, I would find a guy with good genes (and hopefully similar values), get married, and start having babies, rather than working and trying to make a difference on my own!

(edited because I somehow messed up the formatting)

 

[PutresOmega]

]No one has, at least not here.

There is never a need to publicly defend something that is sin.

In the context of what you were replying to in the above quote, you implied that being gay itself was a sin. Perhaps I misread it. .

There has never been a country in the history of the world that is free of crime. Codifying a death penalty, or even long term imprisonment is not the same as have people in a country that will kidnap or kill others. By this standard, the United States also experiences murder.

You appear to be operating under the point of view that there is no difference between hate crimes and regular crimes. This is a common misconception. A hate crime is motivated by the aspect of the “out group” individual that makes them part of the “out group”. In the case of Occupy Pedophilia they have made it clear in their videos exactly why they do what they do and choose who they choose as victims.

The link between pedophiles and homosexuals is an objectively false one and part of the reason I said visibility is important. If there is no visibility then misinformation designed to spread and justify violence grows like a cancer. This is why the law in Russia is evil.

fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes

If you do not want me to take anything personally, then do not personally assign me a side. This isn’t grade school and we do not get to divvy people up.

]You place yourself there by supporting the silencing of LGBT people, offering excuses for the inexcusable laws of Russia, and, by extension, remaining complicit in violence carried out by the wicked against the LGBT community there. I gave you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you were simply a victim of the anti-gay propagandists rather than simply assuming you were evil.

Weren’t you the one criticizing rhetoric? You have a double standard.

If I gave that impression that it was the rhetoric I resented then I apologize for the misunderstanding. I actually dislike the evil of anti-gay rhetoric, not the fact that it is rhetoric.

No one is suggesting that any non-Catholic be canonized.

Pure hyperbole on my part. I apologize for that.

No one is denying that Putin was in the KGB, or that he has never engaged in immoral activities in that role.

I was simply pointing out that his law in this regard was not “for the children” as the case has been made. He is a murderer, Scott Lively (the propagandist and historical revisionist who took responsibility for inspiring the law) is a liar, and their defenders are complicit in acts of grievous evil whether they realize it or not. I would prefer that they know this if possible; hopefully, they will be convinced they are wrong and correct their thoughts and behaviors. Of course I would like to get along with everyone, but then confronting evil doesn’t always make you popular so I am prepared for some lack of charity, though I may complain about it here and there.

 

[healinghands99]

Homosexuality isn’t a choice. I don’t know what it is, but it certainly isn’t something people think they have when they actually don’t.

Is homosexuality really so terrible? After all, Jesus may have been homosexual. He had no female disciples, for example. Perhaps he was gay but resisted his urges or fulfilled them in secret? Just a thought.

 

[One_point]

In the context of what you were replying to in the above quote, you implied that being gay itself was a sin. Perhaps I misread it. .

You appear to be operating under the point of view that there is no difference between hate crimes and regular crimes. This is a common misconception. A hate crime is motivated by the aspect of the “out group” individual that makes them part of the “out group”. In the case of Occupy Pedophilia they have made it clear in their videos exactly why they do what they do and choose who they choose as victims.

The link between pedophiles and homosexuals is an objectively false one and part of the reason I said visibility is important. If there is no visibility then misinformation designed to spread and justify violence grows like a cancer. This is why the law in Russia is evil.

fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes

]You place yourself there by supporting the silencing of LGBT people, offering excuses for the inexcusable laws of Russia, and, by extension, remaining complicit in violence carried out by the wicked against the LGBT community there. I gave you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you were simply a victim of the anti-gay propagandists rather than simply assuming you were evil.

If I gave that impression that it was the rhetoric I resented then I apologize for the misunderstanding. I actually dislike the evil of anti-gay rhetoric, not the fact that it is rhetoric.

Pure hyperbole on my part. I apologize for that.

I was simply pointing out that his law in this regard was not “for the children” as the case has been made. He is a murderer, Scott Lively (the propagandist and historical revisionist who took responsibility for inspiring the law) is a liar, and their defenders are complicit in acts of grievous evil whether they realize it or not. I would prefer that they know this if possible; hopefully, they will be convinced they are wrong and correct their thoughts and behaviors. Of course I would like to get along with everyone, but then confronting evil doesn’t always make you popular so I am prepared for some lack of charity, though I may complain about it here and there.

nonsense. Putin did not create anti LGBT laws. As I understand it, all the Russian federal states had individually made those laws in their own parliaments before they found there way to the federal_national legislature where they were passed near unanimously by Russia’s own political representatives. Hating on Putin and calling him evil is just an ad hominem and irrelevant. In the first place, are you God yourself? The church itself considers that it is unable to make the kind of judgment you make against Putin’s soul, so who are you to claim you know Putin’s soul? When some of you gay people or supporters on this forum make such claims that people and groups that disagree with you unabashedly “are evil!!” it just looks irrational, emotional and immature.

I am in full support of Russia’s laws. They are not targeting gay people for prosecution simply for being gay. They are targeting propagandists whom they have seen take over the Western education and public and managed to have their false messages forced onto small children even against their parents wishes. A grave scandal. Little children in western countries will now grow up having teachers and the government lie to them that homosexuality is normal and a good lifestyle to live. Paganism in full measure. Russia like most of the rest of the world wants none of it and I fully understand it! If people were going round teaching children that alcoholism or promiscuity or pornography was good, I would want the government to put a stop to it as well. Adults can live as they like. But they have no right to scandalize children with such lies.