You probably don't really believe in Prayer

[cecilia97]

At your service.

The irony of your reply is that I know more about Bob Uecker than the others, but you couldn’t have known that, I’ll admit.

Oh, Sirach gets recited on the main Sunday cycle, like, oh, I’ll be generous and say twice. I, OTOH, happen to have a fondness for the book. It is a valid refutaion, however obscure. Some of the OT prophets aren’t on the cycle at all. If I must do this, I’ll dredge up something somewhat less obscure, but not as good.

Sirach is a favorite of mine too! And Jesus alludes to it several times in the New Testament.

 

[Imagine23]

I’ve seen no support for this misunderstanding that prayer is a lazy way to get God to wait on us hand and foot.

Prayer is not unreasonable. Sometimes the answer is just “go to the doctor” instead of a spontaneous healing. Expecting to be waited on hand and foot by your creator, that’s unreasonable!

I hope you don’t just ask for things when you pray. That’s not the point.

You came up with the whole not going to work and praying for money hypothetical, that wasn’t my idea. Don’t argue with yourself.

My point is that if you’re really going to believe in prayer, then really believe in it.

I think it does not make sense to have surgery and then pray that it comes out allright (I don’t think prayer ever really makes sense, but this is just one example). When you go into surgery, you are in the hands of a fellow human being. A well-trained and educated one, but a human nonetheless. Maybe this thought is frightening to people, which is why they pray to hope God looks out for them. I just don’t understand what they think God is doing. Is he moving the surgeon’s scalpel for him? Is he infusing him with temporary hightened senses?

 

[Imagine23]

At your service.

The irony of your reply is that I know more about Bob Uecker than the others, but you couldn’t have known that, I’ll admit.

Oh, Sirach gets recited on the main Sunday cycle, like, oh, I’ll be generous and say twice. I, OTOH, happen to have a fondness for the book. It is a valid refutaion, however obscure. Some of the OT prophets aren’t on the cycle at all. If I must do this, I’ll dredge up something somewhat less obscure, but not as good.

Maybe you’re from Milwaukee. That doesn’t change the fact that Ted Williams, Pete Rose and thousands of other players were better hitters than Uecker.

Anyway, this idea that Sirach somehow puts physicians on par with God is silly. God shouldn’t need doctors to answer prayers.

 

[CollegeKid]

Maybe you’re from Milwaukee. That doesn’t change the fact that Ted Williams, Pete Rose and thousands of other players were better hitters than Uecker.

Anyway, this idea that Sirach somehow puts physicians on par with God is silly. God shouldn’t need doctors to answer prayers.

God shouldn’t need doctors, or for that matter lawyers, gardeners, railroad workers, or me or you. In fact, God doesn’t need any of us. Nonetheless, He created us for His greater glory and because, out of His love for us, knew that we would derive happiness simply from our existence and even greater happiness from an intimate relationship with Him. If you have any belief if God (I honestly can’t tell what your beliefs are besides a lack thereof in the power of prayer), then don’t you think it would be reasonable for Him, having created us to then use us, with His help and our cooperation, as instruments in effecting His will?

 

[cecilia97]

You came up with the whole not going to work and praying for money hypothetical, that wasn’t my idea. Don’t argue with yourself.

Yes, it was a hypothetical…that showed your argument is flawed. I did not imply we should act that way.

My point is that if you’re really going to believe in prayer, then really believe in it.

I do, thanks! I believe God answers my prayers all the time, sometimes by using people and things. Since he’s God, he can answer prayers however he wants.

I think it does not make sense to have surgery and then pray that it comes out allright (I don’t think prayer ever really makes sense, but this is just one example). When you go into surgery, you are in the hands of a fellow human being. A well-trained and educated one, but a human nonetheless. Maybe this thought is frightening to people, which is why they pray to hope God looks out for them. I just don’t understand what they think God is doing. Is he moving the surgeon’s scalpel for him? Is he infusing him with temporary hightened senses?

You’re setting it up as an either/or when it’s not. You imply that someone should (a) trust totally in God or else they have to (b) trust totally in people. It doesn’t work that way. God can, indeed, guide that surgeon’s hand. We can trust that God will use the surgeon to heal us. That’s what happens in Acts 8 when an angel sends Philip to explain scripture to the eunuch.

 

[Pug]

Maybe you’re from Milwaukee. That doesn’t change the fact that Ted Williams, Pete Rose and thousands of other players were better hitters than Uecker.

Anyway, this idea that Sirach somehow puts physicians on par with God is silly. God shouldn’t need doctors to answer prayers.

Yep. Uecker wasn’t a good ballplayer, but Sirach was inspired by the Holy Spirit, as were the rest. Sirach does not place them on par with God, he just tells you to not to spurn their craft. God does not need doctors to answer prayers. But he does seem to like to *voluntarily *set up the principle of intercession. Look at Abraham and that absurd conversation about how many people need to be righteous in Sodom before God won’t destroy them all. Or look at Moses who often prayed in the OT and God relented over those confused Israelites in the wilderness. God didn’t need Moses to intercede with him to spare anyone. He just set it up that way.

What is with God and all his prophets, then? He could just do it all himself. No need to have Elijah build altars and douse them with water only to torch them with fire from heaven in order for it to rain after three years of drought. But somehow, that is what he did anyway. The entire system of animal sacrifice is pretty stupid on a rational basis given that God had no use for the animals all burnt up. God just does things this way, for us, for humans.

 

[Lukelion]

God really doesn’t need us for anything! But here we are. God chooses to work through physical objects

 

[LilyM]

Maybe you’re from Milwaukee. That doesn’t change the fact that Ted Williams, Pete Rose and thousands of other players were better hitters than Uecker.

Anyway, this idea that Sirach somehow puts physicians on par with God is silly. God shouldn’t need doctors to answer prayers.

God shouldn’t need to lift a finger to help your lazy butt or to save your soul either - or mine. Yet he helps you out of the goodness of his heart and sent Christ to die for you also out of the goodness of his heart.

God doesn’t do things because he needs to. He is sufficient to himself, remember. He does things because he wants to.

And he wants humans to play a part in helping each other when we’re ill. That’s clear. Whether that’s with surgical skill or with faith healing. Always has been. Remember the story of the wise servants who used their talents well and the one who wasted what he had been given? We are all expected to use what gifts we’re given. All good gifts and talents are given by God, as St Paul says.

Well, the talents of my parents, along with a lot of other people, lie in their skill as physicians and surgeons. Now it follows that they should honour God and use 'em.

Look at the sections of Mosaic Law which are about skin disease - they’re basically a diagnostic manual, saying ‘if a sore on the skin looks like abc it’s OK, if it looks like xyz it is infectious and the person needs to be isolated.’

 

[Imagine23]

Yep. Uecker wasn’t a good ballplayer, but Sirach was inspired by the Holy Spirit, as were the rest. Sirach does not place them on par with God, he just tells you to not to spurn their craft. God does not need doctors to answer prayers. But he does seem to like to *voluntarily *set up the principle of intercession. Look at Abraham and that absurd conversation about how many people need to be righteous in Sodom before God won’t destroy them all. Or look at Moses who often prayed in the OT and God relented over those confused Israelites in the wilderness. God didn’t need Moses to intercede with him to spare anyone. He just set it up that way.

What is with God and all his prophets, then? He could just do it all himself. No need to have Elijah build altars and douse them with water only to torch them with fire from heaven in order for it to rain after three years of drought. But somehow, that is what he did anyway. The entire system of animal sacrifice is pretty stupid on a rational basis given that God had no use for the animals all burnt up. God just does things this way, for us, for humans.

Anyway, the point is if you believe that God is all-powerful, if you believe that the Bible is the word of God, and thus believe the biblical passages that I quoted, you should believe that medical intervention is unnecessary to cure you, as the Christian Scientists do.

I knew some Christian Scientists awhile ago and I have to say their faith is rather remarkable. One of them was sick with a disease that was easily curable. The woman refused medical treatment though, believing prayer would heal her. Of course she died from her condition, but nobody could doubt her faith in God.

 

[Imagine23]

God shouldn’t need to lift a finger to help your lazy butt or to save your soul either - or mine. Yet he helps you out of the goodness of his heart and sent Christ to die for you also out of the goodness of his heart.

God doesn’t do things because he needs to. He is sufficient to himself, remember. He does things because he wants to.

And he wants humans to play a part in helping each other when we’re ill. That’s clear. Whether that’s with surgical skill or with faith healing. Always has been. Remember the story of the wise servants who used their talents well and the one who wasted what he had been given? We are all expected to use what gifts we’re given. All good gifts and talents are given by God, as St Paul says.

Well, the talents of my parents, along with a lot of other people, lie in their skill as physicians and surgeons. Now it follows that they should honour God and use 'em.

Look at the sections of Mosaic Law which are about skin disease - they’re basically a diagnostic manual, saying ‘if a sore on the skin looks like abc it’s OK, if it looks like xyz it is infectious and the person needs to be isolated.’

Thanks for that. You reminded me of another point I forgot to raise in my initial post. Another premise that makes me wonder why people pray is that God’s plan is already predetermined. If something is not in “God’s plan” then your prayers are futile. If something is within God’s plan then your prayers are unnecessary.

Whenever you point to instances of when prayer did not have the intended effect, you always hear the “it just wasn’t in God’s plan.” So then what is the point in praying if God has a predetermined plan?

 

[CollegeKid]

Anyway, the point is if you believe that God is all-powerful, if you believe that the Bible is the word of God, and thus believe the biblical passages that I quoted,

Has it occurred to you that you may have misinterpreted those biblical passages?

 

[CollegeKid]

Thanks for that. You reminded me of another point I forgot to raise in my initial post. Another premise that makes me wonder why people pray is that God’s plan is already predetermined. If something is not in “God’s plan” then your prayers are futile. If something is within God’s plan then your prayers are unnecessary.

Whenever you point to instances of when prayer did not have the intended effect, you always hear the “it just wasn’t in God’s plan.” So then what is the point in praying if God has a predetermined plan?

The point is that God can and does allow us to have a part in carrying out His plan precisely by this-praying for it.

Also, no less important, the point of prayer is to bring us closer to God.

 

[CollegeKid]

Would you like to hear a little of what the renowned Catholic theologian Frank Sheed had to say about the paradox of God’s predetermined plan and our free will in his classic, Theology and Sanity?

 

[LilyM]

Thanks for that. You reminded me of another point I forgot to raise in my initial post. Another premise that makes me wonder why people pray is that God’s plan is already predetermined. If something is not in “God’s plan” then your prayers are futile. If something is within God’s plan then your prayers are unnecessary.

Whenever you point to instances of when prayer did not have the intended effect, you always hear the “it just wasn’t in God’s plan.” So then what is the point in praying if God has a predetermined plan?

Prayer is about talking to and communicating with God and not simply about getting what we want from him. By asking, we are acknowledging his power and the good he has done for us in the past, even if he won’t answer our present prayer in just the way we want.

And who says God’s mind has never been changed by requests from those he loves? What makes you think every single detail of our lives IS in fact predetermined to such a degree that our prayers are futile in all circumstances?

After all, my father knew that I needed to go to school, and made me go, but I’m sure if I’d been both desperately unhappy and not succeeding at the school he chose for me he would at least have seriously considered letting me change schools, or leave if I was old enough to do so.

I imagine God works in the same way at least sometimes - leaving some of the details of our lives up to us?? Isn’t that what free will is about?

 

[kellie]

Imagine23,

Define “prayer” for me please

 

[Pug]

Anyway, the point is if you believe that God is all-powerful, if you believe that the Bible is the word of God, and thus believe the biblical passages that I quoted, you should believe that medical intervention is unnecessary to cure you, as the Christian Scientists do.

I do believe God can cure me without medical intervention. The Christian Scientists believe something that I do not believe. I am unfamiliar with their religion, but you seem to imply that they believe they ought to forgo medical treatment. I don’t believe that. Clearly I can’t, based on Sirach. Hopefully I believe the entire bible, not just some verses. They all have to fit together, as I’m sure you realize.

In your verses, Jesus was not saying that if you wish to be a giant purple bunny in his name that your wish will be granted. So, what do you think he really meant?

"So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
10 "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
11 "Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?
12 "Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he?
13 “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

 

[Sixtus]

I hear Catholics and other Christians talking about prayer a lot, asking people to pray for them, but I doubt that most truly believe in prayer.

On the other hand, I see Christian Scientists as true believers in prayer.

With all due respects, I certainly believe in the power of Prayer. I contend ‘there is no such thing as answered prayer’!

I have seen the power of prayer so many times I have lost count of them all. As an unworthy servant of the most high God, I can confidentally say PRAYER WORKS!!

In fact it is so successful, one needs be very careful about what one asks for, else you may end up getting it when it is not in your best interests.

Prayer is the perogative of God, He grants according to how He sees fit, which is not always what we want. God listens but He does not appear to respond to adults who behave like spoilt throw a tantrum if I don’t get it kids! God might be very generous but He will not be bullied!!!

I very much doubt there are many Protestants or Catholics or Orthodox here who do not believe in the power of prayer.

I have recently had so many prayers answered that it is getting really scary. I am beginning to ask why our God humbles Himself to listen much more so grant what His mere creatures ask for.

Wow this God of ours is God indeed and some. He is the loving Father that Christ spoke of.

I think getting answers to prayer are sometimes conditional upon faith: to have the courage to ask in humility, then to thank God for listening to our prayers and granting what we ask. To really THANK HIM for granting what we have asked for, then having the confidence in HIm that it WILL HAPPEN. It may be some distance ahead and at a time of His chosing, let us not forget who is the God in all this. But it will happen

 

[Imagine23]

With all due respects, I certainly believe in the power of Prayer. I contend ‘there is no such thing as answered prayer’!

I have seen the power of prayer so many times I have lost count of them all. As an unworthy servant of the most high God, I can confidentally say PRAYER WORKS!!

In fact it is so successful, one needs be very careful about what one asks for, else you may end up getting it when it is not in your best interests.

Prayer is the perogative of God, He grants according to how He sees fit, which is not always what we want. God listens but He does not appear to respond to adults who behave like spoilt throw a tantrum if I don’t get it kids! God might be very generous but He will not be bullied!!!

I very much doubt there are many Protestants or Catholics or Orthodox here who do not believe in the power of prayer.

I have recently had so many prayers answered that it is getting really scary. I am beginning to ask why our God humbles Himself to listen much more so grant what His mere creatures ask for.

Wow this God of ours is God indeed and some. He is the loving Father that Christ spoke of.

I think getting answers to prayer are sometimes conditional upon faith: to have the courage to ask in humility, then to thank God for listening to our prayers and granting what we ask. To really THANK HIM for granting what we have asked for, then having the confidence in HIm that it WILL HAPPEN. It may be some distance ahead and at a time of His chosing, let us not forget who is the God in all this. But it will happen

So have you ever prayed instead of seeking human-provided medical care for a serious condition or recommended that a close loved one do the same? I don’t mean to imply that this is the only test, but I think it is a very good one.

 

[Imagine23]

I do believe God can cure me without medical intervention. The Christian Scientists believe something that I do not believe. I am unfamiliar with their religion, but you seem to imply that they believe they ought to forgo medical treatment. I don’t believe that. Clearly I can’t, based on Sirach. Hopefully I believe the entire bible, not just some verses. They all have to fit together, as I’m sure you realize.

In your verses, Jesus was not saying that if you wish to be a giant purple bunny in his name that your wish will be granted. So, what do you think he really meant?

"So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
10 "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
11 "Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?
12 "Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he?
13 “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

I am quite certain that you do not believe the whole Bible, or even realize what the whole Bible requires of you. For example, do you believe in the following biblical gem:

Leviticus 25:44-46: “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.”

You can’t be serious that “the whole bible fits together.” It is full of contradictions.

 

[Imagine23]

Imagine23,

Define “prayer” for me please

Obviously prayer is a method that can be employed by various religious people as a means to various goals.

In this discussion, I am referring simply to the idea of one praying for God to help him accomplish a specifically requested end result. For example, “God, my sister is having a risky surgery tomorrow that has only a 40% success rate, please make sure she gets through allright.”