You probably don't really believe in Prayer

[Imagine23]

With all due respects, I certainly believe in the power of Prayer. I contend ‘there is no such thing as answered prayer’!

I have seen the power of prayer so many times I have lost count of them all. As an unworthy servant of the most high God, I can confidentally say PRAYER WORKS!!

In fact it is so successful, one needs be very careful about what one asks for, else you may end up getting it when it is not in your best interests.

Prayer is the perogative of God, He grants according to how He sees fit, which is not always what we want. God listens but He does not appear to respond to adults who behave like spoilt throw a tantrum if I don’t get it kids! God might be very generous but He will not be bullied!!!

I very much doubt there are many Protestants or Catholics or Orthodox here who do not believe in the power of prayer.

I have recently had so many prayers answered that it is getting really scary. I am beginning to ask why our God humbles Himself to listen much more so grant what His mere creatures ask for.

Wow this God of ours is God indeed and some. He is the loving Father that Christ spoke of.

I think getting answers to prayer are sometimes conditional upon faith: to have the courage to ask in humility, then to thank God for listening to our prayers and granting what we ask. To really THANK HIM for granting what we have asked for, then having the confidence in HIm that it WILL HAPPEN. It may be some distance ahead and at a time of His chosing, let us not forget who is the God in all this. But it will happen

Do you think you are extremely special? That could be the only explanation. Why would God answer so many prayers for you, but ignore the prayers of the thousands of children around the world who are PRESENTLY dying of hunger, genocide, physical abust. What about the hundreds of thousands of people that died in the 2004 Asian Tsunami? Why did God ignore the prayers of ALL those people, but he answers yours all the time.

That thought process seems to imply a highly exaggerated view of your relative worth in the world.

 

[Imagine23]

Prayer is about talking to and communicating with God and not simply about getting what we want from him. By asking, we are acknowledging his power and the good he has done for us in the past, even if he won’t answer our present prayer in just the way we want.

And who says God’s mind has never been changed by requests from those he loves? What makes you think every single detail of our lives IS in fact predetermined to such a degree that our prayers are futile in all circumstances?

After all, my father knew that I needed to go to school, and made me go, but I’m sure if I’d been both desperately unhappy and not succeeding at the school he chose for me he would at least have seriously considered letting me change schools, or leave if I was old enough to do so.

I imagine God works in the same way at least sometimes - leaving some of the details of our lives up to us?? Isn’t that what free will is about?

I’m not talking about prayer in the sense of “communicating with God.” I see homeless people downtown communicating with God out loud all the time.

I’m talking about prayer in the biblical sense of “ask and you shall receive.”

 

[Imagine23]

I do believe God can cure me without medical intervention. The Christian Scientists believe something that I do not believe. I am unfamiliar with their religion, but you seem to imply that they believe they ought to forgo medical treatment. I don’t believe that. Clearly I can’t, based on Sirach. Hopefully I believe the entire bible, not just some verses. They all have to fit together, as I’m sure you realize.

In your verses, Jesus was not saying that if you wish to be a giant purple bunny in his name that your wish will be granted. So, what do you think he really meant?

"So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
10 "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
11 "Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?
12 "Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he?
13 “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

I left out some other gems from the Bible. For example, do you believe that people who work on the Sabbath should be killed? Exodus 35:2. Do you believe that disobedient teenagers should be killed? Deuteronomy 21:18-21. Do you believe we should kill girls who are not virgins when they marry? Deuteronomy 22:13-21.

If you answer in the affirmative to any of these, you are clearly outside the bounds of what is considered acceptable in our relatively advanced society, yet these are the words of the Bible, some say the word of God.

 

[Imagine23]

I’m impressed. You talk to a few people, and extrapolate that to millions of us Catholics. GOSH WOW! Have you informed the Pope about this trailblazing reasearch?

I guess you should be impressed because so far it’s turning out to be true. Catholics don’t believe prayer is powerful enough to cure medical conditions without the help of educated and trained humans. Some on this board have indicated the reason is for some obscure biblical passage that discusses respecting physicians.

 

[Imagine23]

Would you like to hear a little of what the renowned Catholic theologian Frank Sheed had to say about the paradox of God’s predetermined plan and our free will in his classic, Theology and Sanity?

If you could provide a summary that would be great. I love hearing theists try to explain religious contradictions.

 

[Imagine23]

The point is that God can and does allow us to have a part in carrying out His plan precisely by this-praying for it.

Also, no less important, the point of prayer is to bring us closer to God.

But the point is that if your prayer wishes are contrary to his plan, you have no hope. Apparently, God’s divine plan required the killing of over 150,000 men, women and children in the 2004 Asian Tsunami. So any prayers by those people would have been entirely in vain. Which demonstrates the utter futility of prayer. What greater need would someone have for divine intervention then when faced with imminent death by a Tsunami bearing down on him and his family.

But I guess your response to them would be sorry 150,000 people, you’ve got to die, God is busy making sure my brother’s doctor fixes his herniated disc.

 

[VociMike]

On the other hand, I see Christian Scientists as true believers in prayer. They will actually receive prayer in lieu of modern medical techniques that have been proven to cure the ailments that affect us. They truly believe in the power of prayer.

Then why do they ever die?

 

[Imagine23]

Then why do they ever die?

Um, maybe because prayer in that sense doesn’t work?

 

[LilyM]

But the point is that if your prayer wishes are contrary to his plan, you have no hope. Apparently, God’s divine plan required the killing of over 150,000 men, women and children in the 2004 Asian Tsunami. So any prayers by those people would have been entirely in vain. Which demonstrates the utter futility of prayer. What greater need would someone have for divine intervention then when faced with imminent death by a Tsunami bearing down on him and his family.

But I guess your response to them would be sorry 150,000 people, you’ve got to die, God is busy making sure my brother’s doctor fixes his herniated disc.

At the risk of sounding really harsh (which those who know me can tell you I’m not really) everyone IS going to die at some time and in some way. Fact of life. And there are worse ways to go then in a tsunami. The only people I know who have a difficulty with death are those who don’t believe in an afterlife. Which is your prerogative. I happen to believe in one, which makes everything that happens on this poor little planet of ours much less important than you’d think.

The response of most Catholics is the same response that God himself gave to Job - which is basically ‘you’re not God, and when you are then you can tell him how to do his job!’ Only put much better and more elegantly by Himself. Have you ever read the Book of Job?

Don’t you think that’s fair enough if it is the case? Even parents have to occasionally resort to the ‘do it because I told you’ thing, which is their right as parents a lot of the time. Because children tend to whinge a lot every time something happens that they don’t like. And a parent’s job is not just to be liked by the child.

 

[cecilia97]

I guess you should be impressed because so far it’s turning out to be true. Catholics don’t believe prayer is powerful enough to cure medical conditions without the help of educated and trained humans. Some on this board have indicated the reason is for some obscure biblical passage that discusses respecting physicians.

You totally misunderstand prayer and I feel sorry for you because of that. You say you wish to discuss the “biblical” sense of prayer. I’d bet money that there are more prayers of thanksgiving and praise in the bible than prayers of petition.

Think about this…Which takes more “power” for an all-powerful being; to answer petitions by a flick of his all-powerful hand, or to answers those petitions by using fallible people who have the free will to work AGAINST your will.

Hmmm. Headscratcher.

 

[Nan_S]

I guess you should be impressed because so far it’s turning out to be true. Catholics don’t believe prayer is powerful enough to cure medical conditions without the help of educated and trained humans. Some on this board have indicated the reason is for some obscure biblical passage that discusses respecting physicians.

Apparently you don’t know anything about the water at Lourdes, nor about the process the Catholic Church uses to determine whether God has welcomed a Saint into his beatific presence in Heaven. We call such events “miracles” and “answered prayers.”

A person entering the water at Lourdes may be completely healed if they do so in full faith and prayer, and if it is also God’s will that they be healed. That is the revelation that was given to us, and it has been proven true countless times. The only reason physicians hang around Lourdes is to validate that a person really had a serious medical condition before entering the water, and did not have it after emerging.

The process of discerning whether a deceased person has been admitted into Heaven, and can therefore be named a Saint (capital S) includes the validation of at least two miracles obtained by prayer from us that seeks the deceased person’s prayerful intercession with God. These miracles, in nearly every modern case, come in the form of miraculous healings through prayer.

Did you ever notice the huge numbers of Saints proclaimed during the papacy of John Paul II? These weren’t just casual declarations. Every one of them required absolute proof of miracles, usually of healing completely incurable medical conditions.

Nan

 

[Contarini]

I hear Catholics and other Christians talking about prayer a lot, asking people to pray for them, but I doubt that most truly believe in prayer.

For example, a Catholic friend recently asked for people to pray for her because she was about to undergo surgery to cure a medical condition. I find that amazing. If she really believed in the power of prayer, why would she undergo surgery? Prayer by itself should be enough. Is the thought that God has the power to cure, but only if he has the assistance of a mortal physician? He can’t cure by himself.

You completely misunderstand orthodox Christianity. God is in all creation–everything good that is done is done by God. There is no contradiction between God working and a created cause working. In fact, no created cause would operate if God were not operating in it. If not for God’s continual presence, nothing would exist. You’re starting from the assumption that God is some sort of “extra” over and above the universe. On that assumption, of course Christianity doesn’t make sense.

Edwin

 

[Pug]

You can’t be serious that “the whole bible fits together.” It is full of contradictions.

Sigh. I think you know I didn’t intend to bring up a discussion about biblical inerrancy and the like, but I deserve it. I meant that if you want to know what the bible says about prayer, you have to look at all the things it says about prayer, not just one or two verses. The question of slavery, bible contradictions, etc. is off topic for this thread.

Here is a passage about prayer that is clearly of prime import. Upon being asked how to pray (in Luke), Jesus instructs his followers (Matthew version):

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done…

That is how we ought to pray. The purpose of prayer is not to have our every whim satisfied. A Christian is to conform his will to that of God, and prayer is part of how you do it.

 

[Imagine23]

At the risk of sounding really harsh (which those who know me can tell you I’m not really) everyone IS going to die at some time and in some way. Fact of life. And there are worse ways to go then in a tsunami. The only people I know who have a difficulty with death are those who don’t believe in an afterlife. Which is your prerogative. I happen to believe in one, which makes everything that happens on this poor little planet of ours much less important than you’d think.

The response of most Catholics is the same response that God himself gave to Job - which is basically ‘you’re not God, and when you are then you can tell him how to do his job!’ Only put much better and more elegantly by Himself. Have you ever read the Book of Job?

Don’t you think that’s fair enough if it is the case? Even parents have to occasionally resort to the ‘do it because I told you’ thing, which is their right as parents a lot of the time. Because children tend to whinge a lot every time something happens that they don’t like. And a parent’s job is not just to be liked by the child.

“I happen to believe in one, which makes everything that happens on this poor little planet of ours much less important than you’d think.”

This statement encapsulates precisely what I find scary about religion and its followers. War, famine, tsunamis, global warming are not considered by some theists to be all that important because we’re all going to die and dance together in heaven. What motivation do you have for improving the world for future generations with this attitude?

Being slammed against the side of your house at 200mph and then drowned sounds like a pretty bad way to die to me.

 

[Imagine23]

Sigh. I think you know I didn’t intend to bring up a discussion about biblical inerrancy and the like, but I deserve it. I meant that if you want to know what the bible says about prayer, you have to look at all the things it says about prayer, not just one or two verses. The question of slavery, bible contradictions, etc. is off topic for this thread.

Here is a passage about prayer that is clearly of prime import. Upon being asked how to pray (in Luke), Jesus instructs his followers (Matthew version):

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done…

That is how we ought to pray. The purpose of prayer is not to have our every whim satisfied. A Christian is to conform his will to that of God, and prayer is part of how you do it.

I’m not talking about every “whim.” I’m talking about something gravely serious, for example curing someone with cancer. Is it your contention that a prayer seeking such a cure is not what was intended by the prayer passages in the bible?

 

[Imagine23]

You completely misunderstand orthodox Christianity. God is in all creation–everything good that is done is done by God. There is no contradiction between God working and a created cause working. In fact, no created cause would operate if God were not operating in it. If not for God’s continual presence, nothing would exist. You’re starting from the assumption that God is some sort of “extra” over and above the universe. On that assumption, of course Christianity doesn’t make sense.

Edwin

I think I actually understand it quite well. Some people just don’t like when I point out the limits of their faith. You want to be able to point to God whenever something good happens. When something bad happens (like 150,000 people being killed by a Tsunami) you explain it away as some divine master plan that our little human minds can’t comprehend. You do that because you know that the occurence of such events are incompatible with our notion of an omniscient all powerful God that loves and protects us.

 

[Imagine23]

A person entering the water at Lourdes may be completely healed if they do so in full faith and prayer, and if it is also God’s will that they be healed. That is the revelation that was given to us, and it has been proven true countless times. The only reason physicians hang around Lourdes is to validate that a person really had a serious medical condition before entering the water, and did not have it after emerging.

Nan

A couple things about this statement. First the “and if it is also God’s will that they be healed” is an exception large enough to drive a truck through. As I have said, if it’s not in “God’s will” that they be healed, the prayer is futile. This exception was originally invented of course to explain away the reason why prayer so often does not work. It’s trickery plain and simple. Take the example of the only child who’s father is dying from cancer. She prays that he survive. He does not and she ends up living in foster homes and has a miserable life. You would call that a divine plan? The child didn’t know what was good for her? She didn’t know that what she really needed was a dead father so she could live a miserable life?

If this Lourdes story were true, you would have singlehandedly solved our national healthcare crisis.

 

[Imagine23]

You totally misunderstand prayer and I feel sorry for you because of that. You say you wish to discuss the “biblical” sense of prayer. I’d bet money that there are more prayers of thanksgiving and praise in the bible than prayers of petition.

Think about this…Which takes more “power” for an all-powerful being; to answer petitions by a flick of his all-powerful hand, or to answers those petitions by using fallible people who have the free will to work AGAINST your will.

Hmmm. Headscratcher.

You need to challenge yourself more if you find that to be a headscratcher. Try the friday New York Times crossword puzzle.

The reason, of course, why you assert that God uses fallible humans instead of fixing tragedy himself perfectly, is because there is no demonstrable proof that God exists or that there is any supernatural power that answers personal prayers.

 

[Contarini]

I think I actually understand it quite well. Some people just don’t like when I point out the limits of their faith. You want to be able to point to God whenever something good happens. When something bad happens (like 150,000 people being killed by a Tsunami) you explain it away as some divine master plan that our little human minds can’t comprehend.

Who are you talking about? You don’t seriously think that you have described every Christian view, do you? And you claim to understand us!

I myself would say that the Tsunami is an expression of the brokenness of creation, which God has providentially *permitted *for His own mysterious purposes but is in the work of overcoming. And his major instruments in doing this are human beings.

You do that because you know that the occurence of such events are incompatible with our notion of an omniscient all powerful God that loves and protects us.

No, we do that because we experience reality in this way. Good is more real than evil. That is experientially verifiable. Evil exists as a perversion of good.

Of course it’s a paradox and a mystery. Since you haven’t described your view of the universe, we haven’t had the chance to point out the paradoxes and mysteries in yours. But I’ll bet there are plenty. Materialism, for instance, produces the paradox of unthinking matter evolving into complex forms that develop the crazy theory that they are more than matter. I can live with the paradox of evil and divine providence far more easily than the paradox of matter that thinks.

Edwin

 

[Nan_S]

A couple things about this statement. First the “and if it is also God’s will that they be healed” is an exception large enough to drive a truck through. As I have said, if it’s not in “God’s will” that they be healed, the prayer is futile. This exception was originally invented of course to explain away the reason why prayer so often does not work. It’s trickery plain and simple. Take the example of the only child who’s father is dying from cancer. She prays that he survive. He does not and she ends up living in foster homes and has a miserable life. You would call that a divine plan? The child didn’t know what was good for her? She didn’t know that what she really needed was a dead father so she could live a miserable life?

If this Lourdes story were true, you would have singlehandedly solved our national healthcare crisis.

You can read all about Lourdes at the official website:

Lourdes-France.com

Your allegation was that Catholics don’t believe prayer heals, period. Now that I’ve shown you we do, you’ve changed the allegation to say Catholics don’t believe prayer heals every time. Well, who does? Next time you get a really ugly, purple bruise, show it to a friend while you pray over it; see whether it goes away by the time you say “amen.”

As to your hypothetical child, what makes you so sure she’d automatically have a miserable life? Look around you and you’ll find plenty of folks who became better, happier, and more fruitful people of God because they had to suffer along the way. That doesn’t mean they didn’t believe in prayer, or prayer didn’t work. It means God really does know what’s best for us. We can be 100% sure and dead wrong.

Nan