You probably don't really believe in Prayer

[BeeSweet]

Imagine ~ It seems you do not believe in prayer and need help understanding why others do. What you are describing of the Christian Scientist method is just a small part of what a Catholic’s intention is when we pray. The Holy Mass is a prayer, and we offer this prayer for four intentions: Adoration, Thanksgiving, Reparation, and Petition. Asking for good things from God, and believing He will follow through in your favor is not the main end to prayer. Everyone can understand the petition side of prayer, that’s easy to know how to beg for what you want. But prayer is also meant to give words to God to tell Him simply we love Him, we are thankful to Him, and we are sorry for ever having offended Him. You don’t necessarily have to constantly be asking for something in order to pray. The three non-petitioning aspects of prayer are much more important.

Another way in which a Catholic sees prayer overlooked by a great many people, is that our sufferings are a gift from God for our benefit. When we are ill, have troubles emotionally, financially, what have you, we are given an opportunity to offer up those sufferings to God as prayer. Every suffering we bear is a share in the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Have you given any thought to the prayer which Christ gave us?

Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
(Matthew Chapter 6)

So in these words, we are firstly glorifying God’s name, and asking for his will to be done in our lives, that his kingdom reign here on earth. We ask for our basic necessities. We ask for forgiveness and promise our forgiveness to others. We ask to be kept from the want of sin.

Now when medical treatment for an easily curable disease is given up in lieu of prayers for a cure, that’s an admirable way to offer glory to God and pronounce your faith in Him. It’s certainly not the end all be all of the aim of prayer though. If you don’t know what to believe in, it’s not a wonder you don’t believe. If you do more research, you will come to a better understanding of what prayer is, why you should do it, and what you should expect from it. It’s not wise to tell others they don’t believe in something about which you have limited knowledge.

 

[Imagine23]

It’s because God wants us to come to Him of our own Free WIll, nor as a bunch of coerced robots.

That means He has given us the option to do things His way, or do it our own way. Free Will means that if we want to go our own way and do something completely opposed to Him, He lets it happen.

If we do things God’s way, we see the benefits. If we do things some other way, we often get trouble.

Free Will means we have to deal with people like you.

That last statement is extremely uncharitable. I guess “people like me” means everyone that does not believe in Catholicism. That is a huge group of people. Life must be rough for you dealing with the billions of non-Catholics in the world.

So God’s great plan basically requires that horrible atrocities happen all the time. That doesn’t sound like a great plan at all.

It would make more sense if God just protected everyone at allowed everyone to live in peace.

 

[Imagine23]

Now when medical treatment for an easily curable disease is given up in lieu of prayers for a cure, that’s an admirable way to offer glory to God and pronounce your faith in Him.

If you think that is admirable, you then must admit that the faith of Christian Scientists with respect to the “Petition” aspect of prayer is more admirable than that of Catholics. This is the point of my thread. The fact that you think it is admirable leads me to believe that it is the type of faith that you strive to achieve, but just aren’t quite there yet.

I think it is actually good that you aren’t there yet because it really isn’t admirable or something you should strive for. If your child has an ear infection that can be easily cured with antibiotics it would be foolish to risk permanent damage to their hearing by refusing the medicine and praying instead.

I don’t think what Christian Scientists do is admirable. It demonstrates greater faith than what most Catholics posses, but it’s not admirable.

My thread is just focused on the Petition aspect of prayer.

 

[LilyM]

So God’s great plan basically requires that horrible atrocities happen all the time. That doesn’t sound like a great plan at all.

It would make more sense if God just protected everyone at allowed everyone to live in peace.

Well, that would be why he’s God and you and I aren’t As I’ve said, when you’re God then you can tell him how to do his job. What makes you think you have more common sense than your creator who gave you what sense you do have?

You want things to be easier, which is understandable. Easier rarely means better in the long run, of course. But then you, being so much wiser than I and God that you can tell him how to run the universe, know that already surely.

We don’t understand or approve everything he does, even though all of it has a purpose and, he being creator of the universe, knows most about how to run it.

Any more than a child understands why its parents sometimes make it do things it doesn’t want to (eat vegetables or go to school) and sometimes won’t let it do things the way it would like (won’t let it jump on the bed or stay up all night). But funnily enough the child is almost always better off when it does what its parents tell it to, isn’t it!

 

[Imagine23]

It’s because God wants us to come to Him of our own Free WIll, nor as a bunch of coerced robots.

That means He has given us the option to do things His way, or do it our own way. Free Will means that if we want to go our own way and do something completely opposed to Him, He lets it happen.

If we do things God’s way, we see the benefits. If we do things some other way, we often get trouble.

Free Will means we have to deal with people like you.

If you believe this Free Will theory, then you have to jettison the Petition aspect of prayer. If something is going to happen that is opposed to him, as you say “He lets it happen.”

 

[Imagine23]

Well, that would be why he’s God and you and I aren’t As I’ve said, when you’re God then you can tell him how to do his job. What makes you think you have more common sense than your creator who gave you what sense you do have?

You want things to be easier, which is understandable. Easier doesn’t always mean better of course. But then you, being so much wiser than I and God that you can tell him how to run the universe, know that already surely.

We don’t understand or approve everything he does, even though all of it has a purpose and, he being creator of the universe, knows most about how to run it.

Any more than a child understands why its parents sometimes make it do things it doesn’t want to (eat vegetables or go to school) and sometimes won’t let it do things the way it would like (won’t let it jump on the bed or stay up all night0.

You’re making a lot of assumptions that have not been established. You’re assuming that there is a supernatural creator, that created the universe, you’re also assuming that there was a “beginning” of the universe (some scientists have theories run contrary to this assumption) and you’re also assuming that your supernatural creator is a male.

Your smart enough to realize that logic and our own (not divine) sense of morals are sometimes used to analyze the bible. This is why after over 1800 years Christians finally accepted that slavery was immoral, in spite the fact that the bible does not condemn slavery anywhere and provides implied support for it throughout (by instructing believers on how to deal with their slaves, their value, etc.).

Perhaps you should use this same logic and sense of morals to apply to the rest of your religious beliefs instead of creating these convoluted, illogical “God’s greater plan” stories to explain the inconsistencies away.

 

[Nan_S]

If you believe this Free Will theory, then you have to jettison the Petition aspect of prayer. If something is going to happen that is opposed to him, as you say “He lets it happen.”

If you insist on acting against God, He will let you. He will not take over your head like some mind-control freak from a science fiction movie and force you to change.

On the other hand, if you put your faith and trust in Him, you can rely on the fact that you will be cared for.

The idiot drunken driver who insisted on getting on the interstate will still hit the barrier, but if you put your faith and trust in God you are likely to be watching it from a few car-lengths behind instead of being an active participant.

Want another example? According to the bean-counters, the number of people who were supposed to have been killed in the twin towers on 9/11 was upwards of 50,000. This was calculated based on the number of people who regularly worked in those offices on an ordinary weekday morning. The actual death toll was under 3,000. Tragic, yes, but not nearly as horrific as it might have been if God had not been involved, giving this person a little nudge towards the donut shop, seeing that person oversleep, having a third stuck in traffic for no apparent reason… Was it an unusually extraordinary string of coincidences? If you look a little deeper, you can see the finger of God involved.

 

[Marilena]

I hear Catholics and other Christians talking about prayer a lot, asking people to pray for them, but I doubt that most truly believe in prayer.

For example, a Catholic friend recently asked for people to pray for her because she was about to undergo surgery to cure a medical condition. I find that amazing. If she really believed in the power of prayer, why would she undergo surgery? Prayer by itself should be enough. Is the thought that God has the power to cure, but only if he has the assistance of a mortal physician? He can’t cure by himself.

On the other hand, I see Christian Scientists as true believers in prayer. They will actually receive prayer in lieu of modern medical techniques that have been proven to cure the ailments that affect us. They truly believe in the power of prayer.

i do believe in the power of prayer. a great majority of Catholic’s do. there is nothing wrong in asking our brothers and sisters to pray for us, or we pray for them. One would be ill advised not to seek a physician if their life wa sin danger.

do you think a car accident victim who is on the verge of death would not want that ambulance to come and get him? of course he would!

i would! remember saint luke? was he not a physician himself?
Jesus did not forbid us to go seek medical help at all. where in scripture does it state that He specifically told us not to seek medical attention? no where.

there were doctors back in those days too. not as advanced as ours, but never the less, they were there.

we have always had doctors and always will. what has happened when people have refused to take a life saving blood transfusion? they have died.

now let’s get back to the post about praying. there is no law set down by Jesus that He specifically says we cannot pray for others, or have others pray for us. if so, please post it.

prayer is part of faith, having others pray for you is also part of our faith. through prayers God grants many graces.

 

[Imagine23]

If you insist on acting against God, He will let you. He will not take over your head like some mind-control freak from a science fiction movie and force you to change.

On the other hand, if you put your faith and trust in Him, you can rely on the fact that you will be cared for.

The idiot drunken driver who insisted on getting on the interstate will still hit the barrier, but if you put your faith and trust in God you are likely to be watching it from a few car-lengths behind instead of being an active participant.

Want another example? According to the bean-counters, the number of people who were supposed to have been killed in the twin towers on 9/11 was upwards of 50,000. This was calculated based on the number of people who regularly worked in those offices on an ordinary weekday morning. The actual death toll was under 3,000. Tragic, yes, but not nearly as horrific as it might have been if God had not been involved, giving this person a little nudge towards the donut shop, seeing that person oversleep, having a third stuck in traffic for no apparent reason… Was it an unusually extraordinary string of coincidences? If you look a little deeper, you can see the finger of God involved.

God’s finger must have been too tired to work during the 2004 Asian Tsunami.

 

[eliasaph99]

Earlier a poster related the story of the man praying in the flood. It’s a great story about the answer to prayer coming through our fellow man. If you didn’t read it, it’s on the first page.

Anyways, along those lines, has the OP ever considered that modern medicine is the answer to the prayer of hundreds of thousands of men and women throughout the centuries that mankind be delivered from sickness and ill health?

Surely those suffering from the bubonic plague and their loved ones prayed, likewise for scarlet fever, smallpox, polio, etc. etc. God answered by providing us with a man who said to himself, “Galileo saw something new when he turned his telescope to the stars. What if I look really close at this piece of wood?” Not much later, germ theory was developed and then antibiotics, and vaccines, etc.

The answer to the prayers of thousands. Don’t be ridiculous and refuse the helicopter!

 

[LilyM]

You’re making a lot of assumptions that have not been established. You’re assuming that there is a supernatural creator, that created the universe, you’re also assuming that there was a “beginning” of the universe (some scientists have theories run contrary to this assumption) and you’re also assuming that your supernatural creator is a male.

Your smart enough to realize that logic and our own (not divine) sense of morals are sometimes used to analyze the bible. This is why after over 1800 years Christians finally accepted that slavery was immoral, in spite the fact that the bible does not condemn slavery anywhere and provides implied support for it throughout (by instructing believers on how to deal with their slaves, their value, etc.).

Perhaps you should use this same logic and sense of morals to apply to the rest of your religious beliefs instead of creating these convoluted, illogical “God’s greater plan” stories to explain the inconsistencies away.

Illogical in whose mind? I believe in a creator God - it’s more logical to me, given that both the world and the universe are incredibly complex, that they came about by a created design than not. It’s more logical to the vast majority of people on this planet as well, who believe in a creator God. Who of the two of us is being less logical then?

As for “God’s greater plan”, again it logically follows that if the universe was designedly created then it’s sustained according to a greater design as well. Not a detailed one that admits of no possibility of variation and that happens against the will of those it’s applied to (hence the desirability and usefulness of petitionary prayer), but the type of plan a father makes for his children or a President or King for their country.

 

[zerinus]

I hear Catholics and other Christians talking about prayer a lot, asking people to pray for them, but I doubt that most truly believe in prayer.

For example, a Catholic friend recently asked for people to pray for her because she was about to undergo surgery to cure a medical condition. I find that amazing. If she really believed in the power of prayer, why would she undergo surgery? Prayer by itself should be enough. Is the thought that God has the power to cure, but only if he has the assistance of a mortal physician? He can’t cure by himself.

On the other hand, I see Christian Scientists as true believers in prayer. They will actually receive prayer in lieu of modern medical techniques that have been proven to cure the ailments that affect us. They truly believe in the power of prayer.

How do the Christian Scientists pray? What is the definition of prayer according to the Christian Science system of belief? I think that I have a reasonably good understanding of the meaning of prayer in Catholicism; but your post leaves me in the dark about the meaning of prayer in Christian Science. How does your prayer, or your definition of prayer, differ form the Catholic or any other kind of prayer?

zerinus

 

[LilyM]

God’s finger must have been too tired to work during the 2004 Asian Tsunami.

Of course that was all God’s doing and not mostly or partly the fault, for example, of corrupt and ineffective governments who didn’t ensure that a tsunami warning system was in place in the Indian Ocean as it was in the Pacific, or that there were better and more efficient emergency aid systems in place, or anything like that

Funnily enough, I bet if you asked survivors of the tsunami, even those who have lost loved ones and have suffered terribly, if it’s shaken their faith in God, the vast majority of them would say no. Are they ALL deluded or stupid? Or most of them? Of course not.

The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord …

 

[cecilia97]

So God’s great plan basically requires that horrible atrocities happen all the time. That doesn’t sound like a great plan at all.

It would make more sense if God just protected everyone at allowed everyone to live in peace.

That’s actually the way God designed the world. He intended everyone to live in a garden without having to work or die…mankind turned our back on Him through sin and use of our free will, which He gave to us but we misused.

 

[Nan_S]

How do the Christian Scientists pray? What is the definition of prayer according to the Christian Science system of belief? I think that I have a reasonably good understanding of the meaning of prayer in Catholicism; but your post leaves me in the dark about the meaning of prayer in Christian Science. How does your prayer, or your definition of prayer, differ form the Catholic or any other kind of prayer?

zerinus

Z,

Imagine is not a Christian Scientist. S/he is an uncatechised ex-Catholic who is now atheist, trying to make us argue against what s/he imagines is Christian Scientist.

Nan

 

[Nan_S]

God’s finger must have been too tired to work during the 2004 Asian Tsunami.

Instead of asking “Where was Jesus” during the tsunami, why aren’t you asking “Where was Buddha, Krishna, or all of the Hindu gods?”

It’s worth pointing out that most of the tsunami victims were un-Christian, anti-Christian, or apostates. They didn’t get Jesus’ help because they didn’t have faith and trust in Jesus.

Most of the post-tsunami relief came from the Christians, who used the opportunity to show them something better than the impoverished way of Buddha, Krishna, and the other Hindu gods.

 

[zerinus]

Z,

Imagine is not a Christian Scientist. S/he is an uncatechised ex-Catholic who is now atheist, trying to make us argue against what s/he imagines is Christian Scientist.

Nan

I still like to know how he defines prayer though. His op is ambiguous in that regard.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

It’s worth pointing out that most of the tsunami victims were un-Christian, anti-Christian, or apostates. They didn’t get Jesus’ help because they didn’t have faith and trust in Jesus.

Oh, I would take issue with that one. Disasters and tragedies befall all kinds of people, including Christians. Misfortune is not always a sign of God’s displeasure. I recall the words of the Lord to the Jews:

Luke 13:

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilæans were sinners above all the Galilæans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

zerinus

 

[Nan_S]

I still like to know how he defines prayer though. His op is ambiguous in that regard.

zerinus

S/he defines prayer as asking for goodies and favors, and thinks that true faith through prayer means you receive everything asked for.

 

[zerinus]

S/he defines prayer as asking for goodies and favors, and thinks that true faith through prayer means you receive everything asked for.

I don’t think it is that simple. This is how he defines prayer in his OP:

On the other hand, I see Christian Scientists as true believers in prayer. They will actually receive prayer in lieu of modern medical techniques that have been proven to cure the ailments that affect us. They truly believe in the power of prayer.

This is far from clear to me, and it doesn’t seem to be saying what you are saying. I would like to know what he means by that.

zerinus