"You shall not bow down to them or worship them"

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Sam_777

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(Deuteronomy 5:8-9):
"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me".

I understand that Christians do not worship the statues inside most Churches, but how to justify the “no bow down” command shown above since I see many persons bow down to the statues and to the pictures inside those Churches!
 
(Deuteronomy 5:8-9):
"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me".

I understand that Christians do not worship the statues inside most Churches, but how to justify the “no bow down” command shown above since I see many persons bow down to the statues and to the pictures inside those Churches!
Kneeling is a position of prayer for us. A typical Catholic thing to say would be: “Let’s kneel down and pray.”
The statue makes us think of holy things and arouses in us a desire to pray/speak to God and/or the saint represented by the statue. We’re not bowing down “to” the statue any more than we’re praying to the statue.
 
If I bow to a statue or crucifix I am not bowing to the statue etc but using it as a means to my adoration of Jesus etc. It is a reminder of who I am praying too. It helps one to be prayerful and thoughtful. It is just an aid to being in the presence of god.
 
If I bow to a statue or crucifix I am not bowing to the statue etc but using it as a means to my adoration of Jesus etc. It is a reminder of who I am praying too. It helps one to be prayerful and thoughtful. It is just an aid to being in the presence of god.
But Deuteronomy 5:8-9 is clear!, beside GOD is a jealous GOD, so I see no room for any maneuver. :confused:
 
But Deuteronomy 5:8-9 is clear!, beside GOD is a jealous GOD, so I see no room for any maneuver. :confused:
But, God knows of those that worship false gods and those who worship him. He would know what I am worshipping! It ain’t no statue!
 
I was challenged with this same thing by the pastor of a very small non-denominational Protestant church (he is an ex Catholic, too, quite odd). My answer: do you have pictures of loved ones? Do you remind yourself of those loved ones when looking at those pictures, possibly even become emotional if they are no longer in the flesh? The statues are representations just as are the pictures. We don’t worship the ‘golden calf’ but the one true God and his Saints are there (in representation) to remind us we are not alone in our earthly struggles. He also questioned my devotion to the Blessed Mother (again, very odd for an ex-Catholic). I explained, Jesus gave her to us all, she is my mother also. Should I not turn to my Mother for help and comfort? Plus (huge plus), didn’t Jesus make wine from water at Cana because she gently nudged him into doing it? So she’s got influence lol. I have a statue of my Mother here and a little “shrine” where small things are placed (robin’s egg, for example). I don’t worship that statue. I don’t worship Mary. I worship her Son. It’s a comfort to me to be able to put little things around “her” but this ain’t no golden calf. 😛
 
Would you say that kneeling at the edge of our bed to pray is “bowing down to our bed”. I mean, I do like to sleep and all but :D. All joking aside, kneeling at a statue or picture is not worshiping that image itself, but rather a reflective spot to do some praying. The image helps us think of what we need to pray about, but we don’t believe the images hold an mystical power.
 
(Deuteronomy 5:8-9):
"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me".

I understand that Christians do not worship the statues inside most Churches, but how to justify the “no bow down” command shown above since I see many persons bow down to the statues and to the pictures inside those Churches!
:Hmmm: Let’s see the context here shall we? What is the passage commanding us to NOT do? What is it referring to?
Worship of FALSE gods! :rolleyes:

Are the statues and Icons in our Catholic or Orthodox churches FALSE gods?
Are they even a “representation” of the TRUE GOD?

The answer of course is NO.

Therefore it is a straw argument. :rolleyes:

If you are granted to visit the Queen of England at her presence you are supposed to bow down!
Are you worshipping her? :cool: I doubt it.
It is only a sign of respect and deference. SAME thing applies to statues and Icons in our churches.
 
What is the difference between kneel down and bow down :confused:
A bow is a bending of the waist. Kneeling down is simply kneeling down to pray. They are completely different. The only thing we will bow to is the Holy Eucharist, which is God’s body transubstantiated.
 
:Hmmm: Let’s see the context here shall we? What is the passage commanding us to NOT do? What is it referring to?
Worship of FALSE gods! :rolleyes:

Are the statues and Icons in our Catholic or Orthodox churches FALSE gods?
Are they even a “representation” of the TRUE GOD?

The answer of course is NO.

Therefore it is a straw argument. :rolleyes:

If you are granted to visit the Queen of England at her presence you are supposed to bow down!
Are you worshipping her? :cool: I doubt it.
It is only a sign of respect and deference. SAME thing applies to statues and Icons in our churches.
I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 138:2)"

To simply put it: You must bow down in humility to GOD Almighty. That’s a must and a given. So, you must physically bow down somewhere, and naturally to some direction! If you were to do it right now, you would be bowing towards a random direction. Your physical presence on earth forces this upon you as a prostrating Believer to GOD Almighty, whether you like it or not. The bowing down to GOD Almighty in the direction of the Kaaba, or the city of Mecca in general, is a way to unify all Muslims to bow down to GOD Almighty, as one body and one unity, towards one direction and towards His Holy Temple.
 
Well…my response may not suit others but it suits me…😃

With the coming of Christ, we are no longer under the mosaic law. This was quite definitely settled at the council of Jerusalem in Acts. We are now under the law of love - that we love God above all things and our neighbor as ourselves…this is the root of all the rest.
Of course the Church has retained the ten commandments because they came directly from God to Moses and because the Ten commandments embody so briefly and beautifully this idea of love.
But these commands, which belong to the OT covenant must be understood in the light of the NT covenant and the Church as Jesus has set it up.
Jesus gave tot he Church the authority to bind and loose - whatever (Mt 18:15-18). The Church has used that authority to properly teach the truth of the gospel and to make interpretation where needed and to settle disputes when necessary. This extends event to the understanding and application of the 10 commandments.
The OT commandment is to keep the sabbath…the last day of the week…in the NT covenant the Church, with authority, has bound us to keep “the Lord’s day” which is the first day of the week. Likewise, in the OT covenant the prohibition was against “graven images”…In the NT covenant the Church, using her authority, has further defined how we are to understand this command.

Ultimately, so long as we are acting within what the Church has decreed in her teachings…that is, we are submitting to the God given authority over us, then we are not disobeying God.

To further clarify…from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
  • IV. “YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . .”>
2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . "It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. “He is the all,” but at the same time “he is greater than all his works.” He is “the author of beauty.”

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:
Code:
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.
Hope this helps…

Peace
James
 
But Deuteronomy 5:8-9 is clear!, beside GOD is a jealous GOD, so I see no room for any maneuver. :confused:
God knows the heart friend. He’ll know if you are praying to a statue or praying directly to Him or one of His Saints. In that regard, all protestants (usually our biggest critics in the “idolatry”) are also guilty. Their pastors pray all the time while holding a bible. They might kneel to pray with a bible in their hands. That is the same concept.
 
I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 138:2)"

To simply put it: You must bow down in humility to GOD Almighty. That’s a must and a given. So, you must physically bow down somewhere, and naturally to some direction! If you were to do it right now, you would be bowing towards a random direction. Your physical presence on earth forces this upon you as a prostrating Believer to GOD Almighty, whether you like it or not. The bowing down to GOD Almighty in the direction of the Kaaba, or the city of Mecca in general, is a way to unify all Muslims to bow down to GOD Almighty, as one body and one unity, towards one direction and towards His Holy Temple.
👍 I like this explanation. I would also like to add the factor of limiting true worship. In the common misunderstanding of this issue, you can see how the outsider (non-Catholic) is limiting my worship of God to their understanding of worship. I like having the ability of worship to God being unlimited and above any human understanding or explanation of true worship.

Peace!!!
 
But Deuteronomy 5:8-9 is clear!, beside GOD is a jealous GOD, so I see no room for any maneuver. :confused:
Are Christians (or Muslims) held to all the Old Testament laws? Why or why not?

For example, in the very passage you quoted, you hilighted certain phrases but ignored others:
“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.”

That literally means no photos, no movies, no drawings of any thing. What about this?
 
Well…my response may not suit others but it suits me…😃

With the coming of Christ, we are no longer under the mosaic law. This was quite definitely settled at the council of Jerusalem in Acts. We are now under the law of love - that we love God above all things and our neighbor as ourselves…this is the root of all the rest.
Of course the Church has retained the ten commandments because they came directly from God to Moses and because the Ten commandments embody so briefly and beautifully this idea of love.
But these commands, which belong to the OT covenant must be understood in the light of the NT covenant and the Church as Jesus has set it up.
Jesus gave tot he Church the authority to bind and loose - whatever (Mt 18:15-18). The Church has used that authority to properly teach the truth of the gospel and to make interpretation where needed and to settle disputes when necessary. This extends event to the understanding and application of the 10 commandments.
The OT commandment is to keep the sabbath…the last day of the week…in the NT covenant the Church, with authority, has bound us to keep “the Lord’s day” which is the first day of the week. Likewise, in the OT covenant the prohibition was against “graven images”…In the NT covenant the Church, using her authority, has further defined how we are to understand this command.

Ultimately, so long as we are acting within what the Church has decreed in her teachings…that is, we are submitting to the God given authority over us, then we are not disobeying God.

To further clarify…from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
  • IV. “YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . .”>
2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . "It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. “He is the all,” but at the same time “he is greater than all his works.” He is “the author of beauty.”

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:
Code:
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.
Hope this helps…

Peace
James
You have expressed my thoughts as well. I am glad you posted.
 
(Deuteronomy 5:8-9):
"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me".

I understand that Christians do not worship the statues inside most Churches, but how to justify the “no bow down” command shown above since I see many persons bow down to the statues and to the pictures inside those Churches!
Concerning the charge of idolatry: Icons are not idols but symbols, therefore when an Orthodox venerates an icon, he is not guilty of idolatry. He is not worshipping the symbol, but merely venerating it. Such veneration is not directed toward wood, or paint or stone, but towards the person depicted. Therefore relative honor is shown to material objects, but worship is due to God alone.
We do not make obeisance to the nature of wood, but we revere and do obeisance to Him who was crucified on the Cross… When the two beams of the Cross are joined together I adore the figure because of Christ who was crucified on the Cross, but if the beams are separated, I throw them away and burn them. —St. John of Damascus
 
Are Christians (or Muslims) held to all the Old Testament laws? Why or why not?

For example, in the very passage you quoted, you hilighted certain phrases but ignored others:
“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.”

That literally means no photos, no movies, no drawings of any thing. What about this?
Actually My RSV says “Graven image” which I understand graven to mean carved or sculpted…so by this…photo’s movies and drawings/paintings would be OK.

Just to complicate things further…;)😃

Peace
James
 
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