"You shall not bow down to them or worship them"

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Sam_777 said:
(Deuteronomy 5:8-9):
"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me".

I understand that Christians do not worship the statues inside most Churches, but how to justify the “no bow down” command shown above since I see many persons bow down to the statues and to the pictures inside those Churches!
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My answer to this is simple. I don’t have time to look up the scripture from the new testamtent and post them, but I will if you really need me to. But the answer is this: we are freed from the law. Not the spirit of the law, but the rigidity of the law. Paul uses Adutry(one of the ten commandments) as an example. So now it doesn’t matter that we a kneeling in front of a statue if we are not actually worshipping it
 
Sam_777 said:
What is the difference between kneel down and bow down :confused:
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I was using them interchangeably since when others accuse us of “bowing down” they are referring to when we kneel.

Technically there is a difference in the physical posture - which others explained. In America kneeling is the posture most commonly used – especially in public worship. But sometimes in private prayer people may bow down to pray (kneel and then place their head down to the floor). However, it may well be that in some national cultures bowing down to pray is more common than kneeling. The point is that when Catholics either kneel or bow down where there is a statue, they are not worshipping or praying **to **the statue; they are not bowing/kneeling to the statue, but rather assuming a position of prayer as part of the prayerful communication with the person the statue represents.
 
I say, we do not bow down TO them, we bow down IN FRONT OF them. We are bowing TO Jesus or whichever Saint they represent.

Many other Christians may bow down (or even kneel) in front of their Bibles, but we never say they are bowing TO their Bibles.

I think many non-Catholics get confused just because the statues look like people that have lived.

We are showing reverence to the person the statue represents, not to the statue itself. So again, we bow IN FRONT OF, not TO.
 
bzkoss236 said:
I say, we do not bow down TO them, we bow down IN FRONT OF them. We are bowing TO Jesus or whichever Saint they represent.

Many other Christians may bow down (or even kneel) in front of their Bibles, but we never say they are bowing TO their Bibles.

I think many non-Catholics get confused just because the statues look like people that have lived.

We are showing reverence to the person the statue represents, not to the statue itself. So again, we bow IN FRONT OF, not TO.
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Yes. We mustn’t remove the context from the Scriptures we read, OP. You have to understand what “bowing down to” meant to an Israelite living in 1500 BC. People in this time bowed down to the things they believed to be “gods”…things of worship…a thing they believed to be a deity. In bowing, they were asserting that this thing was their “god”. Bowing does not have that connotation today. It can be a sign of respect/honor, depending on what culture you are in/from. But even more than this, the fact is that Catholics ONLY worship God, and God Alone…and we do not bow down to idols that we think are our “gods”…we bow to God Alone (because we believe God is God Alone), and we give respect/honor where respect/honor is warranted.
 
JRKH said:
Actually My RSV says “Graven image” which I understand graven to mean carved or sculpted…so by this…photo’s movies and drawings/paintings would be OK.

Just to complicate things further…;)😃
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Show me a person who is upset with kneeling before a statue, but who has no problem with kneeling before an ikon, and I’ll show you a very rare person. 🙂 I truly don’t believe that “graven” is the key point here, to anybody who uses this passage to argue against kneeling before statues or images to pray.

And does this person want the statue of Lincoln in the Lincoln Monument to come down? The statue of the Flag Raising on Iwo Jima?
 
snarflemike said:
Show me a person who is upset with kneeling before a statue, but who has no problem with kneeling before an ikon, and I’ll show you a very rare person. 🙂 I truly don’t believe that “graven” is the key point here, to anybody who uses this passage to argue against kneeling before statues or images to pray.

And does this person want the statue of Lincoln in the Lincoln Monument to come down? The statue of the Flag Raising on Iwo Jima?
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Agreed mike…I used the smilies to indicate the tongue in cheek nature of my post.

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
Well…my response may not suit others but it suits me…😃

With the coming of Christ, we are no longer under the mosaic law. This was quite definitely settled at the council of Jerusalem in Acts. We are now under the law of love - that we love God above all things and our neighbor as ourselves…this is the root of all the rest.
Of course the Church has retained the ten commandments because they came directly from God to Moses and because the Ten commandments embody so briefly and beautifully this idea of love.
But these commands, which belong to the OT covenant must be understood in the light of the NT covenant and the Church as Jesus has set it up.
Jesus gave tot he Church the authority to bind and loose - whatever (Mt 18:15-18). The Church has used that authority to properly teach the truth of the gospel and to make interpretation where needed and to settle disputes when necessary. This extends event to the understanding and application of the 10 commandments.
The OT commandment is to keep the sabbath…the last day of the week…in the NT covenant the Church, with authority, has bound us to keep “the Lord’s day” which is the first day of the week. Likewise, in the OT covenant the prohibition was against “graven images”…In the NT covenant the Church, using her authority, has further defined how we are to understand this command.

Ultimately, so long as we are acting within what the Church has decreed in her teachings…that is, we are submitting to the God given authority over us, then we are not disobeying God.

To further clarify…from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
  • IV. “YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . .”>
2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . "It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. “He is the all,” but at the same time “he is greater than all his works.” He is “the author of beauty.”

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:
Code: 
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.
Hope this helps…

Peace
James
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This is a marvelous answer but there’s a tiny fly in this pudding: those outside the Catholic Church don’t recognize her authority (like the pastor I spoke of who is an ex Catholic). Protestantism (at least those churches I attended while looking for God in all the wrong places) calls her the “whore of Babylon”, accuses her of being in great apostasy and serving satan thereby leading millions of souls to hell. 🤷 This is the problem when speaking to such an audience or people of that conviction. Here, you are preaching to the choir (well, for the most part). So this is a brilliant response but it would evoke all sorts of horrific nonsense from the fundamentalists and evangelicals I’ve known. :eek:
 
ellzeena said:
This is a marvelous answer but there’s a tiny fly in this pudding: those outside the Catholic Church don’t recognize her authority (like the pastor I spoke of who is an ex Catholic). Protestantism (at least those churches I attended while looking for God in all the wrong places) calls her the “whore of Babylon”, accuses her of being in great apostasy and serving satan thereby leading millions of souls to hell. 🤷 This is the problem when speaking to such an audience or people of that conviction. Here, you are preaching to the choir (well, for the most part). So this is a brilliant response but it would evoke all sorts of horrific nonsense from the fundamentalists and evangelicals I’ve known. :eek:
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Yes there are those who cannot be reasoned with…and with them there is little that can be done. (Although I am currently in a conversation with one on another website.)

For those who are protestant - but not so radical toward the Catholic Church - conversation can be had, but in the end every issue will resolve itself down to one - - - Authority. Who has the authority to determine what is correct within and between two or more conflicting ideas or teachings?
Jesus tells us in the Gospel who has the authority and the book of acts shows Jesus’ instructions put into action…but it takes much patient conversation, and a willingness to set aside the Catholic (or any other) structure to get many protestants to see it.
Of course the above is a broad brush statement…Lutherans and Anglicans tend to hold with a more visible, structured and authoritative approach…So it is easier for some protestants to see this than others (the more “independent”, “evangelical” types).

Peace
James
 
One verse worth considering is Exodus 18:7.

And Moses went out to meet his father in law, and did obeisance, and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare; and they came into the tent.

The verb translated “did obeisance” is apparently the same as whatvis used in the passage from Deuteronomy and Exodus 20. The fact is that the same word can have multiple senses and we have to use common sense in our interpretation of the scriptures.
 
When I knee or bow in prayer to a saint or Holy Virgin, can’t be anything wrong because they are really in the body of Christ. And this is why I pray to them for their intercession. Christ is not in a statue and of course I do not bow to a statue. Only a superficial interpretation of the commandment agains idolatry can make you think that “we bow before the statue” is identical with “we bow to a statue”. Idolatry said that the spirit of the god is in the statue that depicted the qualities of that god and for sure you know we do not believe this.
 
As i said before, God knows if one is worshiping a statue or not. He knows what is in our hearts. Many saints would kneel before a crucifix or statue to pray. It is not the statue etc that they are praying to!
 
Sam_777 said:
(Deuteronomy 5:8-9):
"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me".

I understand that Christians do not worship the statues inside most Churches, but how to justify the “no bow down” command shown above since I see many persons bow down to the statues and to the pictures inside those Churches!
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Why do muslims bow down and worship a place–i.e.–the Mecca? Is Allah stuck in the Mecca?

Is it somehow more ‘holy’ or dignified to worship a place, rather than to worship God?

Is Allah not also a jealous God, as was YHWEH? Is Allah not also, the one and sameGod of Abraham?

Let me guess–when you bow don to the Mecca…you’re not actually worshipping the Mecca–rather you are worshipping Allah. No?

Folks with glass houses oughn’t cast stones at their neighbors windows…
 
Sam_777 said:
What is the difference between kneel down and bow down :confused:
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They are demonstrations or signs of humbling ourselves in prayer and mediation before God.

Kneel down…to do on one’s knees.

To bow down, to lower one’s head…saying we are not worthy to see you with our eyes because of our sinfulness.
 
Sam_777 said:
(Deuteronomy 5:8-9):
"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me".

I understand that Christians do not worship the statues inside most Churches, but how to justify the “no bow down” command shown above since I see many persons bow down to the statues and to the pictures inside those Churches!
Click to expand...
I don’t bow down before or worship statues. Why would I do that? If I am kneeling it is because I am praying to God. If there is a statue in the room it has nothing to do with anything. It is only a material object. I can’t see how anyone would worship it or mistake it for a deity or pray to it.
 
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