"You shall not call anyone Father"

[Turtullian]

He did not apply any title for himself anywhere in the text.

There is a difference between a TITLE and common noun.

For anyone to flee from acknowledging this difference is not wise, IMO.

What’s the difference in calling Abraham our father (james 2:21) (which is a title for he ain’t really our father but a spiritual one,) Paul calling himself a father to others who are not his biological children, and a priest being called father? Are all these not really spiritual fathers? If Paul is really a father, and Abragam is our father, a Catholic Priest is surely my father as well. And I can call him my father for I am his child!

BTW you are injecting the word title where it does not say in text but not only that but the word title can defined to include not just stature but styles. Paul calling himself father has by definition stylized himself.

 

[VociMike]

Of course Paul is using the term “father” as a title. He was not the actual father of any of those whom he spoke to, in any sense of the word. He was clearly adopting the term “father” as a title.

Or, if you want to turn it around, when we call Catholic priests “father” we are not using it as a title. We are using it in the way Paul used it. Better now?

 

[Pax]

Pax, that is very intersting information.

It would seem, if correct, that it is the Luther-ans, Wesley-ans, Calvin-ists etc. that are in the wrong here…

Ironic. Then again, Luther didn’t like his followers calling themselves Lutherans, so he may not be to blame directly.

Where did you get the information btw.?

• CB

I got started on this by a couple of things stated by Father Mitch Pacwa on a radio broadcast. He mentioned the schools and particularly the Hillel school. Likewise, he mentioned that the leaders of these schools were known as the “Father” of the house. This got me going on the research of the Hillel school and from there it was a down hill pull. You can find information online concerning all of what was mentioned. The Catholic Encyclopedia also has some information on Gamalieel.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Christ was addressing titles as those of spiritual leaders.

Academic titles or professional titles are not referred to at all by our Lord.

Why would anyone go out of one’s way to disobey?

That makes no sense.

…

A pastor is not a spiritual leader? The bible clearly says call no man teacher, yet these pastors insist on being called by such a term? Doctor clearly means teacher, it meant teacher before it became an academic title. So my question once again, why is it acceptable for protestant pastors to ignore scripture?

 

[mtr01]

A pastor is not a spiritual leader? The bible clearly says call no man teacher, yet these pastors insist on being called by such a term? Doctor clearly means teacher, it meant teacher before it became an academic title. So my question once again, why is it acceptable for protestant pastors to ignore scripture?

Not only that, but as the article I linked demonstrated, Protestant ministers (as well as elders in their Churches) were routinely called “Father” up until the mid 1800’s. Surely, “call no man ‘Father’” was not miraculously discovered in Sacred Scripture at that time…

 

[Atemi]

A pastor is not a spiritual leader?

His title of “Doctor” (if he had one) would not be in reference to that, no.

We all know this.

The bible clearly says call no man teacher, yet these pastors insist on being called by such a term?

Everyone I know with a doctorate does not insist on being called by such a term. That cannot be said of many men of the cloth.

Doctor clearly means teacher, it meant teacher before it became an academic title.

But that is all it is today: an academic or professional title.

Christ was clearly not addressing academics and professionals. But we all know this already.

Actually, the doctrinally correct Vulgate does not translate the text in question into the Latin doctor.

No.

Here is what Christ said in English as translated from the doctrinally sound Latin Vulgate:

Mat 23:10 “Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, Christ”

This is what the doctrinally sound Latin text says:

“nec vocemini magistri quia magister vester unus est Christus”

You see it?

Not doctor…but Magister…as in those that populate a Magisterium.

Right there in the Vatican-approved, doctrinally sound Latin Vulgate. Christ commanded that none of His people are to be called “magistri.” Magisterium.

My church does not have a Magisterium.

Maybe that is another issue we can include in this thread.

…

 

[Atemi]

Of course Paul is using the term “father” as a title. He was not the actual father of any of those whom he spoke to, in any sense of the word. He was clearly adopting the term “father” as a title.

Or, if you want to turn it around, when we call Catholic priests “father” we are not using it as a title. We are using it in the way Paul used it. Better now?

Evading the Lord’s command with semantical arguments does not fool Him.

Please look up what a title is. It is not merely an analogy or figurative language.

…

 

[Atemi]

What’s the difference in calling Abraham our father (james 2:21) (which is a title for he ain’t really our father but a spiritual one,) Paul calling himself a father to others who are not his biological children, and a priest being called father?

Because a priest’s title is “Father.”

Not so with Paul.

A title is waaaaay different than just using an analogy or figurative language.

Are all these not really spiritual fathers?

They can be, and there is nothing wrong with that, but that has nothing to do with what Christ commanded.

If Paul is really a father, and Abragam is our father, a Catholic Priest is surely my father as well. And I can call him my father for I am his child!

Are you a child of God or a child of your priest?

Hmmmm.

Jesus said we have only one spiritual Father. How many do you have?

BTW you are injecting the word title where it does not say in text

No I am not. The context demands it.

The Catholic Church already recognizes that.

…

 

[Church_Militant]

You be sure to tell St. Paul how wrong he was to call himself the spiritual father of some of the churches he worked in.

I hope I’m there to see that one.

 

[NotWorthy]

Everyone I know with a doctorate does not insist on being called by such a term. That cannot be said of many men of the cloth.

Atemi, this is where you are showing your bias. There are many doctorates, that insist on being addressed “doctor”. There are many men of the cloth that would not even notice if you neglected to call them father. Does this prove that I’m right and you’re wrong? Of course not.

I’ve never met one that did insist that I call them Father. I simply did it as a sign of respect, nothing more, nothing less.

The point is, though, if a priest insists on being called Father, then maybe that’s a failing of the priest, rather than the Church. I don’t know anywhere that the Church teaches that you have to call a priest “Father”. Most of them sign their names, “Rev. so-and-so”. Now, habit may have trained a priest to call himself Father, simply because he’s heard the term so often. But that’s different from someone insisting on being called “Father”.

Of course, this is just my humble opinion.

 

[Turtullian]

Mat 23:10 “Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, Christ”

This is what the doctrinally sound Latin text says:

“nec vocemini magistri quia magister vester unus est Christus”

You see it?

Not doctor…but Magister…as in those that populate a Magisterium.

Right there in the Vatican-approved, doctrinally sound Latin Vulgate. Christ commanded that none of His people are to be called “magistri.” Magisterium.

My church does not have a Magisterium.

Maybe that is another issue we can include in this thread.

…

Hold it. Stop right there. Since latin like all languages like has diffferent context’s for thier words. The Term Magisteri can mean master but professor as well as well as the word canon. The Magisterium used in context does not refer to masters but to professors/and or canonists!

Also the word teacher used has the connotation of not just teaching but a mastership hence why vulgate and the DRB uses the term master where other bibles use teacher.

So your appeal to latin ultimately fails here.

 

[NotWorthy]

The Magisterium is my master?!?!? I’ve never heard that one before. The Magisterium is for teaching, if you asked me?

 

[Turtullian]

The Magisterium is my master?!?!? I’ve never heard that one before. The Magisterium is for teaching, if you asked me?

He’s playing the game that since magister can mean master it must mean that that all the meanings of magister are thrown out. Somes words have different meanings in different contexts. Here magister is used in the sense of master not professor or canonist.

For example In Paul’s 2nd epistle to Timothy, Paul calls himself teacher.
Chapter 1
11 Wherein I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and teacher of the Gentiles.

Now look at the latin:
11 in quo positus sum ego praedicator et apostolus et **magister **gentium

 

[Atemi]

Hold it. Stop right there. Since latin like all languages like has diffferent context’s for thier words. The Term Magisteri can mean master but professor as well as well as the word canon. The Magisterium used in context does not refer to masters but to professors/and or canonists!

Also the word teacher used has the connotation of not just teaching but a mastership hence why vulgate and the DRB uses the term master where other bibles use teacher.

So your appeal to latin ultimately fails here.

Christ commanded that none of His are to be called a Magister.

Christ commanded that none of His are to be called Father.

Obey or not.

No one will stand before me thankfully.

 

[Atemi]

He’s playing the game that since magister can mean master it must mean that that all the meanings of magister are thrown out. Somes words have different meanings in different contexts. Here magister is used in the sense of master not professor or canonist.

For example In Paul’s 2nd epistle to Timothy, Paul calls himself teacher.
Chapter 1
11 Wherein I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and teacher of the Gentiles.

Now look at the latin:
11 in quo positus sum ego praedicator et apostolus et **magister **gentium

TITLES, Turtullian.

Titles. Not common nouns.

Christ is clear.

 

[MojeIme1981]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cascherman View Post
A few times Abraham is referred to as father (by Jesus even, and yes he is the literal father of Israel, but regardless he is described as father). You should then refer to the hard hitter in 1 Corinthians. Chapter 4 verse 15, “Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.” and also previously, in verse 14, he refers to his readers (the people of corinth) as his children.

Anyone? (please Catholics only)

 

[Turtullian]

TITLES, Turtullian.

Titles. Not common nouns.

Christ is clear.

Word Games. Paul calls himself a teacher of gentiles. If that is not a stylization, I don’t know what is.

 

[Atemi]

The Magisterium is my master?!?!?

No.

A Magisterium is made up of a plurality of Masters.

I’ve never heard that one before.

Most Catholics haven’t, but it is the truth regardless.

Does it matter?

The Magisterium is for teaching, if you asked me?

Whatever it is for was not discussed or excused in the Lord’s explicit command.

…

 

[Atemi]

Word Games. Paul calls himself a teacher of gentiles. If that is not a stylization, I don’t know what is.

If the difference cannot be undertood between a TITLE and a common noun, then anything more complicated cannot be entertained.

…

 

[Turtullian]

Christ commanded that none of His are to be called a Magister.

Magister again has different contexts and so you play the losing game of using the fallacy of the excluded middle to make up for this fact.

I guess if we want to play it your way, Jesus himself was ignorant of the day and the hour because jesus said that the son did not know. Then again the word know not only means knowledge but also can mean knowledge by the senses. I guess under your world view because Jesus used a word that means all different contexts are thrown right out.

Christ commanded that none of His are to be called Father.
The word father looking at the closest interlinear shows that the word used for Father also can be used in a divine sense which would make sense seeing as the pharisees acted above the Law but introducing the korban rule in regards to giving an out for people not to support thier parents.