You Shall NOT Kill!

[simple_soul]

I was thinking that even after Jesus Christ showed us how great His Love for us is by willingly spilling His Blood for us. After all the martyrs spilled their blood for this Great Love that they understood and after all of the great examples and writings of so many Saints to help us understand this Great Love that God has for us. Why is it that we seem to have lost it somewhere along the road ( to where we are now), we still DON’T seem to GET IT! What is it about the commandment of “Thou Shall Not Kill” that we just do not seem to get. If it is one of God’s commandments why do we try to “justify” it.

Any thoughts on this are welcome,

Always praying and pondering

 

[geometer]

I was thinking that even after Jesus Christ showed us how great His Love for us is by willingly spilling His Blood for us. After all the martyrs spilled their blood for this Great Love that they understood and after all of the great examples and writings of so many Saints to help us understand this Great Love that God has for us. Why is it that we seem to have lost it somewhere along the road ( to where we are now), we still DON’T seem to GET IT! What is it about the commandment of “Thou Shall Not Kill” that we just do not seem to get. If it is one of God’s commandments why do we try to “justify” it.

Any thoughts on this are welcome,

Always praying and pondering

I admire the efforts of the catholic church to further this effort in the pro-life stance. And, I believe that one day there will also be no more just wars to fight.

If you kill any living thing, that has consciousness, it darkens your soul.

 

[James_S_Saint]

What is it about the commandment of “Thou Shall Not Kill” that we just do not seem to get. If it is one of God’s commandments why do we try to “justify” it.

Any thoughts on this are welcome,

Always praying and pondering

One word;

Clarity

Imagine if Jesus had not been clear to Simon or any of His disciples. Would He have had any? What if He had not been clear to the blind man? Would the blind man do the right things so as to gain his sight? Jesus was remarkable at being clear, and thus He succeeded at His assignment. Without clarity, doubt reigns in place of Faith.

Look at that commandment;

"Thou Shalt Not Kill"

Shalt not kill what? Shalt not kill whom? Nothing at all? How are we to eat?

“Oh, He must have meant…”

Do not kill the innocent? Anyone? Under ANY circumstance?

“Oh, He must have meant…”

Doubt, suspicion, and distrust reign by the lack of clarity. Read my signature. Everything Man does (any man) that leaves any part of that out, spawns doubt, suspicion, distrust, and eventual sin. But how clear is that message? Why would you believe it and not doubt?

Jesus made it as clear as could be done at that time. He was accepted to the degree that such times allowed. But His time was short. Clarity faded as doubt moved in. Now Man’s time is short.

Increase Clarity and you increase Faith.

 

[geometer]

“Clarify and Verify the Incentive toward greater Momentum of Pure Harmony of the Living. That which remains in harmony cannot perish”

You will have to give us the **mass **and velocity of the Pure Harmony if you really want the true momentum…

 

[James_S_Saint]

You will have to give us the **mass **and velocity of the Pure Harmony if you really want the true momentum…

As someone already pointed out, "Catholics spell “Mass” with a cap “M”.

Mass == the number of people.
Velocity == how occupied they are in the effort to live.
**Harmony **== effort void of conflict. (Thou Shall Not Kill)
Maximum Energy output is the result.

Physics defines “momentum” based on the ability for something to be diverted from its path. Such a concept determines when and IF anything is going to die (diverge from its path of living).

It all makes far more sense that I could ever “Clarify”.

 

[dmccormack]

If it is one of God’s commandments why do we try to “justify” it.

I particularly object to the justification of the killing of a human being, when they say “I, or we, have the right to do what we want with our body,” or “All of you(Pro-Lifers) are just trying to take away my rights.” I believe this is a completely selfish view of ones body and they are placing themselves in the authority of man. All we can do for these people however is to pray for them, and ask that the Holy Spirit will allow them to see the err in their ways.

 

[OchsFam]

“I, or we, have the right to do what we want with our body,” or “All of you(Pro-Lifers) are just trying to take away my rights.”

Yes, their argument fails in its own words. It is not their body they are deciding for in abortion. They are two separate persons sharing one space, but it is most definitely someone else they are claiming the rights for. The sad part about their argument is that they could, and probably will, take the argument outside of the womb and start to justify killing their infants outside of the womb if they lose their job.

If you can kill another person who is dependent upon you when you fear a financial crisis, why not kill the child when they are costing you money outside of the womb, right? Hey, I am paying a lot of taxes for group x to live, it is becoming burdensome and inconvenient. Can we just kill the people who are a tax burden so that I can have more money?

I love the logic. Good thread, but I lose my mind when I think about these people.

God Bless.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I was thinking that even after Jesus Christ showed us how great His Love for us is by willingly spilling His Blood for us. After all the martyrs spilled their blood for this Great Love that they understood and after all of the great examples and writings of so many Saints to help us understand this Great Love that God has for us. Why is it that we seem to have lost it somewhere along the road ( to where we are now), we still DON’T seem to GET IT! What is it about the commandment of “Thou Shall Not Kill” that we just do not seem to get. If it is one of God’s commandments why do we try to “justify” it.

Any thoughts on this are welcome,

Always praying and pondering

Frist, the most important thing is getting the actual Commandment right.

Even though the fifth commandment has been translated as “Thou shall not kill” in English as of late it is really “Thou shall not commit murder”.

There can be a big difference between the two.

 

[geometer]

This Rabbi has some interesting experience concerning respect for life…

Listen to his alligator story…

Moral evoloution

 

[Ender]

Frist, the most important thing is getting the actual Commandment right.

Even though the fifth commandment has been translated as “Thou shall not kill” in English as of late it is really “Thou shall not commit murder”.

There can be a big difference between the two.

The Church has always taught that some killing is justifiable: self defense, capital punishment, just war. If we believe that Christ taught that all killing is immoral then we would have to admit that the Church has always been wrong on this point and is still wrong today. This is a significant issue and if we accept that the Church got this one wrong we would have reason to doubt all the other claims she makes about herself. Or we could recognize that what ByzCath has said is correct and that regardless of our personal opinions we need to accept that not all killing is wrong.

Ender

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The Church has always taught that some killing is justifiable: self defense, capital punishment, just war. If we believe that Christ taught that all killing is immoral then we would have to admit that the Church has always been wrong on this point and is still wrong today. This is a significant issue and if we accept that the Church got this one wrong we would have reason to doubt all the other claims she makes about herself. Or we could recognize that what ByzCath has said is correct and that regardless of our personal opinions we need to accept that not all killing is wrong.

Ender

Nicely put.

 

[simple_soul]

Interesting responses so far. Here are a few more thoughts to ponder.

I have four bibles I dug out before I asked this question and two of them use the word “kill’ and the other two used the word “murder”.
By definition “murder” is the following:

1. the crime of unlawfully killing a person esp. with malice aforethought.

So this brought me to the word “malice” by first definition it is:

1. desire to cause pain, injury, or distress to another.

So even if the correct translation is “Thou Shall Not Murder” we can still see that even in a defensive act one still has to premeditate in their mind and heart to make sure ones own skin is saved from being killed. So this I would think would be malice of the “self love” nature.

I believe it is very hard to try to come up with any justification through the example of Jesus Christ, either by words or actions, to “Kill/Murder” any human being. I do however understand that we are a fallen and sinful people and it makes it impossible for us to achieve the perfect example that Jesus Christ gave us to follow. But, this does not mean we are not called to do our part and at least try to follow in Jesus Christ’s footsteps. The Church understand our sinful nature and it understands Jesus Christ’s perfection and it understands our “free will” and so it tries to follow God’s example of allowing “certain evils” to exist. Does that make these evils good? I do not believe so.

Why is it that we are always trying to “justify” our sinful nature with God’s Words wherever we can find it?
I believe we are called to follow God’s laws through the actions and words of His Word, Jesus Christ, not man’s sinful, fallen, and self justifying laws.

Again any thoughts on this are welcome as I am trying to understand this better.

Always praying and pondering,

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Interesting responses so far. Here are a few more thoughts to ponder.

I have four bibles I dug out before I asked this question and two of them use the word “kill’ and the other two used the word “murder”.
By definition “murder” is the following:

1. the crime of unlawfully killing a person esp. with malice aforethought.

So this brought me to the word “malice” by first definition it is:

1. desire to cause pain, injury, or distress to another.

So even if the correct translation is “Thou Shall Not Murder” we can still see that even in a defensive act one still has to premeditate in their mind and heart to make sure ones own skin is saved from being killed. So this I would think would be malice of the “self love” nature.

I believe it is very hard to try to come up with any justification through the example of Jesus Christ, either by words or actions, to “Kill/Murder” any human being. I do however understand that we are a fallen and sinful people and it makes it impossible for us to achieve the perfect example that Jesus Christ gave us to follow. But, this does not mean we are not called to do our part and at least try to follow in Jesus Christ’s footsteps. The Church understand our sinful nature and it understands Jesus Christ’s perfection and it understands our “free will” and so it tries to follow God’s example of allowing “certain evils” to exist. Does that make these evils good? I do not believe so.

Why is it that we are always trying to “justify” our sinful nature with God’s Words wherever we can find it?
I believe we are called to follow God’s laws through the actions and words of His Word, Jesus Christ, not man’s sinful, fallen, and self justifying laws.

Again any thoughts on this are welcome as I am trying to understand this better.

Always praying and pondering,

I did not see any thing talking about “Self love” in your definition of malice. I would not call self defense “self love” anyways, for me it is self-preservation. That is unless you can show me Scriptures that say we are to allow are selves to be harmed.

I will stand by the Church’s interpretation on this.

Nothing I have seen in this thread persuades me that the Church has gotten this wrong.

 

[simple_soul]

I did not see any thing talking about “Self love” in your definition of malice. I would not call self defense “self love” anyways, for me it is self-preservation. That is unless you can show me Scriptures that say we are to allow are selves to be harmed.

I will stand by the Church’s interpretation on this.

Nothing I have seen in this thread persuades me that the Church has gotten this wrong.

I believe it is the Church’s teaching that we are to follow in Jesus Christ’s words and actions. It has been my understanding that this is what the Gospels are based upon.
So I guess my question is how did Jesus Christ teach us how we are to “self-preserve” our own life?
If believing the Church teaches us to follow Jesus Christ’s example even to the point of death is wrong, then please help me to understand why and how it is wrong.

Always praying and pondering,

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I believe it is the Church’s teaching that we are to follow in Jesus Christ’s words and actions. It has been my understanding that this is what the Gospels are based upon.
So I guess my question is how did Jesus Christ teach us how we are to “self-preserve” our own life?
If believing the Church teaches us to follow Jesus Christ’s example even to the point of death is wrong, then please help me to understand why and how it is wrong.

Always praying and pondering,

Luke 22:36

He said to them, "But now one who has a money bag should take it, and likewise a sack, and one who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one.

I highly doubt the sword was for cutting bread.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I believe it is the Church’s teaching that we are to follow in Jesus Christ’s words and actions. It has been my understanding that this is what the Gospels are based upon.
So I guess my question is how did Jesus Christ teach us how we are to “self-preserve” our own life?
If believing the Church teaches us to follow Jesus Christ’s example even to the point of death is wrong, then please help me to understand why and how it is wrong.

Always praying and pondering,

I see you say that your Catholic. So who is the authority? You or the Church. The Church teaches that self defense is acceptable and not murder.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. “The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not.”

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

As the Church Teaches not only is self defense acceptable, it is moral, and in some cases it is required.

 

[simple_soul]

I see you say that your Catholic. So who is the authority? You or the Church. The Church teaches that self defense is acceptable and not murder.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. “The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not.”

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

As the Church Teaches not only is self defense acceptable, it is moral, and in some cases it is required.

Dear Br. David,

Please understand I am not trying to contest what the Church teaches I am just trying to understand it more deeply.

I understand what you posted and I cannot say that I disagree with it. What I am trying to understand is why is it OK when it seems to go against the example that Jesus Christ gave us through His actions and Words. The best that I can come up with is that it is because of our fallen and sinful nature.
Do you have further insight to understand this better that you could share with me?

Always praying and pondering

 

[James_S_Saint]

That is unless you can show me Scriptures that say we are to allow are selves to be harmed.

“Turn the other cheek”
“Do not resist an evil man”
“Give to him anything else he might need”

Philosophically speaking, it is not a “black or white” issue. Even exchanging the word “kill” with the word “murder” does not take away the lack of clarity.

Exactly what defines a “murder”?
Is overpopulation a threat to one’s life, thus justifying abortions?
Could you have done less harm and still survived?
Even if convicted in man’s court of being a killer, how is killing him really self defense?

Without clear understanding of the root construct and rationale of the moral, it will always be cloudy and thus always be used by evil to do evil.

 

[StrawberryJam]

If you can commit adultery by looking at a woman with lust, then nearly all of us are guilty of murdering a person, either their good name, or in other ways.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Dear Br. David,

Please understand I am not trying to contest what the Church teaches I am just trying to understand it more deeply.

I understand what you posted and I cannot say that I disagree with it. What I am trying to understand is why is it OK when it seems to go against the example that Jesus Christ gave us through His actions and Words. The best that I can come up with is that it is because of our fallen and sinful nature.
Do you have further insight to understand this better that you could share with me?

Always praying and pondering

Ok, I can understand this.

First, if you look up the entries from the Catechism you will see that there are references to other Church documents.

I will give you two answers that work for me, one philosophical as that is the forum we are in, the other faith based.

Philosophically I see how the Principle of Double Effect works with self-defense and it is very logical for me.

Regarding Faith, I understand what the Church is saying and no where in Scripture do I find Jesus saying that we are to submit our lives to those who are trying to kill us. I trust the Church who can not Teach error nor lead us into sin.