You Shall NOT Kill!

[simple_soul]

I am not trying to trap you, I am trying to find out what you believe.

With this statement you say that the Church is teaching error but you can live with it as you hope the Church will eventually get it right.

This goes against the Church’s Teachings that it can not Teach error.

Thank you for that insight into your belief that the Church can be defective in its Teachings.

Dear Br. David,

After a remark like this I have to ask.

Are you saying that you do not believe in the “Organic growth and development” of the Church in her Truths and her understanding of those Truths?

Always praying and pondering,

 

[chaunceygardner]

Thank you for that insight into your belief that the Church can be defective in its Teachings.

No, not “defective”, but more like “incomplete”. It is we humans who are defective in abiding by the teachings of the Church.

 

[chaunceygardner]

I agree with you brother, but I fear that those you are debating with will not change. They believe themselves to be righteous judges, able to pass judgement on all who do not measure up to their impeccable moral character

Thank you for joining in and for your support. Our individual moral character is what is at issue. It is not the judgment of humans I am concerned about, but rather the judgment of God for our obtuseness in understanding Him and obstinate refusal to accept what He commands of us.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Dear Br. David,

After a remark like this I have to ask.

Are you saying that you do not believe in the “Organic growth and development” of the Church in her Truths and her understanding of those Truths?

Always praying and pondering,

Yes I do believe in the organic growth and development of our understandings of the Truth but the Church can never Teach error.

If the Church ever said that Capital Punishment is really a mortal sin then it would have taught error.

Just as if one day the Church says that contraception is ok or gay marriage can be sacramental or the ordination of priestesses is possible. That is not organic growth.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

No, not “defective”, but more like “incomplete”. It is we humans who are defective in abiding by the teachings of the Church.

Then Capital Punishment is acceptable.

You can not have it both ways. Either the Church is wrong or it is not. This is not an issue of incomplete understanding.

That is unless you can show us a case where the Church has taught one thing and then later because of some new understanding now teaches the exact opposite.

 

[chaunceygardner]

This is too general. The fifth commandment, as the Church teaches, allows for killing in self defense, just war, and capital punishment. I can only assume, since you said you accept the Church’s teaching, that you also accept these three exceptions. Is this true?

Of all the killings that occur in our country each week, how many are in self defense? I would think very few.

Of all the wars that have occurred in the past century, how many have been “just”? I would have to say from my reading of 20th century American history that we could agree on WWII. And even there, was it a “just” war to begin with? Certainly not to the Poles and Czechs and others who faced the onslaught of the initial Nazi attacks. We could say that our reason for being in it was just, and in defense of our freedom. But could you say that in any other war of the past 100 years, that we were there solely to defend our country and protect the freedoms of the American people?

And Capital Punishment. That has been the subject of at least one other very long thread. How often is it really necessary or called for? The fact that the incidence of it has declined precipitously in the past 50 years and has been banned in the great majority of civilized countries should be a good indicator of that. Choosing not to execute people should not contradict Church teaching, as to allow something does not mean to advocate it. In fact, the Church does just the opposite.

I think we as individuals, and people as countries and societies, are closer to living the Gospel than we have been in the past, but we have a long way to go. The Church is trying to lead the way, but we are slow to follow.

What specifically do you see as a failure to comply with that commandment? I recognize that you disagree with my position, but since my position is based entirely on what the Church teaches, I do not understand you when you say we aren’t living up to Church teaching.

Please see what I wrote above. I too base my position on what the Church teaches, which in turn is based on the commandments and the teachings of Jesus. And I am not talking about you personally, but about people in general, especially Christians who should “know better”.

I can see that you don’t understand, and I truly apologize for not being able to communicate better. Think of the Church’s teaching (and Jesus’ teaching) as the IDEAL, then ask yourself if we (as individuals, as societies and cultures, as countries) come close to living up to that ideal? We obviously don’t. It is not the Church’s fault, it is the result of human weakness and obstinacy for not truly accepting and living the Gospel (or even the basic commandments).

I realize I have posted a few together here, but felt I had to in order to respond to others.

 

[simple_soul]

Yes I do believe in the organic growth and development of our understandings of the Truth but the Church can never Teach error.

If the Church ever said that Capital Punishment is really a mortal sin then it would have taught error.

Just as if one day the Church says that contraception is ok or gay marriage can be sacramental or the ordination of priestesses is possible. That is not organic growth.

Dear Br. David,

Please forgive me but I do not follow.

How does believing this quote from the Evangelium vitae Ioannes Paulus PP. II, teach us that capital punishment is a mortal sin?

1. This is the context in which to place the problem of the death penalty. On this matter there is a growing tendency, both in the Church and in civil society, to demand that it be applied in a very limited way or even that it be abolished completely. The problem must be viewed in the context of a system of penal justice ever more in line with human dignity and thus, in the end, with God’s plan for man and society. The primary purpose of the punishment which society inflicts is “to redress the disorder caused by the offence”.46 Public authority must redress the violation of personal and social rights by imposing on the offender an adequate punishment for the crime, as a condition for the offender to regain the exercise of his or her freedom. In this way authority also fulfils the purpose of defending public order and ensuring people’s safety, while at the same time offering the offender an incentive and help to change his or her behaviour and be rehabilitated. 47

It is clear that, for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.

In any event, the principle set forth in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church remains valid: "If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person".48

I guess my question is…is this or is this not what the church teaches us?

Always praying and pondering

 

[Ender]

I agree with you brother {chaunceygardner}, but I fear that those you are debating with will not change. They believe themselves to be righteous judges, able to pass judgement on all who do not measure up to their impeccable moral character

I understand that you agree with chauncey’s position on capital punishment but you should surely recognize the problem of agreeing with his supporting argument. He is not Catholic and so believing that the Church has been wrong on this issue for nearly 2000 years poses no problems for him, but as you are Catholic, accepting such a claim basically demolishes the reasons the Church herself gives for why she should be believed about anything.

ByzCath is right: * “Either the Church is wrong or it is not. This is not an issue of incomplete understanding.*”

chaunceygardner:

Think of the Church’s teaching (and Jesus’ teaching) as the IDEAL, then ask yourself if we (as individuals, as societies and cultures, as countries) come close to living up to that ideal? We obviously don’t. It is not the Church’s fault, it is the result of human weakness and obstinacy for not truly accepting and living the Gospel (or even the basic commandments).

I get the feeling that you think there is a morality over and above what the Church teaches; that essentially the Church is giving us minimum standards but that we’re actually called to much more. Is this what you’re saying?

Ender

 

[catholicsuffer]

I agree with you brother, but I fear that those you are debating with will not change. They believe themselves to be righteous judges, able to pass judgement on all who do not measure up to their impeccable moral character

With that statement, thus you become what you claim others to be.

Perhaps, you need an example; let me try:

Suppose your enemy bombs a couple of buildings, let us say a couple of twin towers. This enemy not only hate and despise you but also your religion, because you are a Christian. Now in order to appease your enemy you must conform to his ways…denounce Jesus and follow a fellow name…let’s see here…Moha. Once you have done this, he also wants to be your boss and own all of what you have. So, going by your intepretation of what the Holy Spirit must do in order to lead the Church forward, is to let them take all and not fight or kill them…just turn the other cheek as Jesus commanded us to.

Well, I see several things wrong here. One you are telling the Holy Spirit where to guide the church into completion…this is for no Man to say. Then you are telling the oldest Christian religion that you are more correct then she is in the interpretation of the letters left to us from the Apostles. I think you really need to rethink your position on this matter.

 

[catholicsuffer]

With that statement, thus you become what you claim others to be.

Perhaps, you need an example; let me try:

Suppose your enemy bombs a couple of buildings, let us say a couple of twin towers. This enemy not only hate and despise you but also your religion, because you are a Christian. Now in order to appease your enemy you must conform to his ways…denounce Jesus and follow a fellow name…let’s see here…Moha. Once you have done this, he also wants to be your boss and own all of what you have. So, going by your intepretation of what the Holy Spirit must do in order to lead the Church forward, is to let them take all and not fight or kill them…just turn the other cheek as Jesus commanded us to.

Well, I see several things wrong here. One you are telling the Holy Spirit where to guide the church into completion…this is for no Man to say. Then you are telling the oldest Christian religion that you are more correct then she is in the interpretation of the letters left to us from the Apostles. I think you really need to rethink your position on this matter.

CWBetts

Furthermore CWBetts,
Since you really irritated me, I wanted to point out that by telling the Holy Spirit where to guide the Church and that the Holy Spirit has somehow came short of the Glory of God, you have most likely brought condemnation upon your own soul. I once was told that the reason most Catholics become very quiet when I start talking about visions and prophecies is because they love the Holy Spirit and do not want to offend him and that is the reason I can not ever get them to talk much about the Gifts. YOU on-the-other-hand are very boisterous.

 

[catholicsuffer]

CWBetts

Furthermore CWBetts,
Since you really irritated me, I wanted to point out that by telling the Holy Spirit where to guide the Church and that the Holy Spirit has somehow came short of the Glory of God, you have most likely brought condemnation upon your own soul. I once was told that the reason most Catholics become very quiet when I start talking about visions and prophecies is because they love the Holy Spirit and do not want to offend him and that is the reason I can not ever get them to talk much about the Gifts. YOU on-the-other-hand are very boisterous.

Furthermore CWBetts,

Ephesians 4:30
That is what becomes of Catholics who betrays the Church and bad mouth the Holy Spirit.

 

[CWBetts]

Furthermore CWBetts,

Ephesians 4:30
That is what becomes of Catholics who betrays the Church and bad mouth the Holy Spirit.

What in the world are you talking about. I am talking about those so blind to think that the death penalty is a first recourse. What you describe is not defending oneself in just war. Now calm down. I never bad-mouthed the Holy Spirit. I would never do such a thing. If I made you mad because I espouse charity and mercy over vengeance and blood lust, so be it.

 

[Ender]

I espouse charity and mercy over vengeance and blood lust,

Do you? When I say that my support for capital punishment is based on my understanding of the obligations of justice, do you consider it a charitable interpretation to attribute it instead to blood lust and a desire for vengeance? To truly espouse charity you have to actually practice it, not merely proclaim it.

Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. (CCC 2478)

At least, this is how the Church understands it … but perhaps you have a different interpretation.

Ender

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Almost every day we can read or hear news stories of people who have “retaliated” against others for real or imagined offenses, and who often take innocent lives in the process.

Yet it certainly equates with God when He promises to avenge those who died proclaiming Him. (Again, read the quote from Revelations I’ve cited).

We can’t all be “Harry Callahans” and mete out justice fairly to those we determine to be in the wrong. That kind of attitude and behavior just does not equate with the clear commands of Jesus.

I read news stories about a little group of vigilantes here called the DDS. As much as I find their methods of killing drug pushers and dealers to be a bit extreme, crime in my city has been significantly reduced in comparison to other provinces and even the capital. Whereas one can take out a cellphone here and not fear of it being snatched it away, it’s the complete opposite in anywhere else in my country.

How many people do you think were killed in these shootings? Answer: Just the criminals themselves.

You’d be surprised at how easy it can be to take out a person in a crowd. Just ask the police. They’re supposed to know how to do that.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I agree with you brother, but I fear that those you are debating with will not change. They believe themselves to be righteous judges, able to pass judgement on all who do not measure up to their impeccable moral character

Thanks for the attempt at flattery but one does not need perfect moral character to know that it’s wrong to steal. Tell me, have you ever been robbed? How about being spat on by a beggar after you refuse to give him alms?

Ever given in to a bunch of street urchins only for them to snatch what you’re about to give them and squabble amongst themselves over it like wild animals?

I don’t know about you, but I certainly wish I had a beating stick (or better yet, a gun) in the first two scenarios. Blood lust and vengeance are actually good things when pointed in the right direction. It enforces discipline for the criminally rockheaded.

 

[CWBetts]

Thanks for the attempt at flattery but one does not need perfect moral character to know that it’s wrong to steal. Tell me, have you ever been robbed? How about being spat on by a beggar after you refuse to give him alms?

Ever given in to a bunch of street urchins only for them to snatch what you’re about to give them and squabble amongst themselves over it like wild animals?

I don’t know about you, but I certainly wish I had a beating stick (or better yet, a gun) in the first two scenarios. Blood lust and vengeance are actually good things when pointed in the right direction. It enforces discipline for the criminally rockheaded.

If that is your attitude then you are no less criminal than they are. And yes, some time ago my apartment was broken into and I had about $1000 worth of DVDs stolen. A gun because a beggar spits on you. Such charity. (note the sarcasm) So much for turning the other cheek hypocrite.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

If that is your attitude then you are no less criminal than they are. And yes, some time ago my apartment was broken into and I had about $1000 worth of DVDs stolen. A gun because a beggar spits on you. Such charity. (note the sarcasm) So much for turning the other cheek hypocrite.

Yeah sure, a one time experience compared to at least five times I’ve lost computer equipment (including, headphones, speakers, mouse) not to mention two cellphones to a snatcher and a burglar respectively. You have loads of experience all right. (By the way, I’ve had a teacher who had lost things way more than $1000).

Your type of charity is for the weak and naive. At least a gun could keep you from getting robbed, again.

What defense do I have in a country where there is threat of a robber in every street corner?

P.S.

Warning shots are pretty effective against those think they have every right to be a prick just cuz they’re poorer than you.

Personally, I don’t care rich or poor, nobody has any right to push me around. There’s no “turning the other cheek” with this Catholic. (In case it hasn’t occurred to you, that’s the first card an anti-Christian abuser would pull against you along with other groups who think they can slander and mock our faith.) Maybe you should keep the apologists from responding too and shut up the Catholic League if you’re so adamantly against retaliation.

 

[CWBetts]

Yeah sure, a one time experience compared to at least five times I’ve lost computer equipment (including, headphones, speakers, mouse) not to mention two cellphones to a snatcher and a burglar respectively. You have loads of experience all right. (By the way, I’ve had a teacher who had lost things way more than $1000).

Your type of charity is for the weak and naive. At least a gun could keep you from getting robbed, again.

What defense do I have in a country where there is threat of a robber in every street corner?

P.S.

Warning shots are pretty effective against those think they have every right to be a prick just cuz they’re poorer than you.

Personally, I don’t care rich or poor, nobody has any right to push me around. There’s no “turning the other cheek” with this Catholic. (In case it hasn’t occurred to you, that’s the first card an anti-Christian abuser would pull against you along with other groups who think they can slander and mock our faith.) Maybe you should keep the apologists from responding too and shut up the Catholic League if you’re so adamantly against retaliation.

There is a difference between defending the faith and seeking to keep things. One is eternal the other is material. Everything we “own” is God’s, and he can take it away if He so wishes. If you are sow concerned about possessions, then you down own them. They own you.

 

[donsnow]

Yeah sure, a one time experience compared to at least five times I’ve lost computer equipment (including, headphones, speakers, mouse) not to mention two cellphones to a snatcher and a burglar respectively. You have loads of experience all right. (By the way, I’ve had a teacher who had lost things way more than $1000).

Your type of charity is for the weak and naive. At least a gun could keep you from getting robbed, again.

What defense do I have in a country where there is threat of a robber in every street corner?

P.S.

Warning shots are pretty effective against those think they have every right to be a prick just cuz they’re poorer than you.

Personally, I don’t care rich or poor, nobody has any right to push me around. There’s no “turning the other cheek” with this Catholic. (In case it hasn’t occurred to you, that’s the first card an anti-Christian abuser would pull against you along with other groups who think they can slander and mock our faith.) Maybe you should keep the apologists from responding too and shut up the Catholic League if you’re so adamantly against retaliation.

Lost Wanderer -

From 2000 to 2004, my house was burglarized seven times. I lost my telescopes, computer, coronet, entertainment center etc, every thing of value in that time. It remains my duty, and I have, prayed for the thieves and asked God to forgive them. I think I’ve forgiven them, too.
I fought off a theft attempt in may cab around '79 or '80…the assailant had a pointed stick and a cloth with chloroform on it. He first tried to stab me with the stick and then tried to drug me with the cloth over my nose and mouth. My USMC training kicked in and I parried the thrust of the pointed stick and after he was on top of me I stopped breathing as soon as I saw the cloth coming down onto my face. After a minute I reached for his throat; upon which, as soon as he felt my hand on his throat, he raised up off me. I then subsequently kicked him into the back seat and told him, in terms I cannot quote here, to get out of my cab. He did.

I have since forgiven him.

I will confirm, that since Concealed Carry licenses and the Castle law have become legal in Texas, our crime has gone down.

The beggars who either spit on you or grab alms from your hands are obviously not Christ-types; and do need praying for.

For the sake of your own soul, try to forgive and pray for them. I too have my grudges to drop, before the Lord can forgive me my trespasses: grudge against skeptics who bash our God and our Church. They need praying for, too.

Just all kinds of different sinners, theives, beggars and skeptics. Forgive and pray, so we can be forgiven.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

There is a difference between defending the faith and seeking to keep things. One is eternal the other is material. Everything we “own” is God’s, and he can take it away if He so wishes. If you are sow concerned about possessions, then you down own them. They own you.

It doesn’t matter if God owns everything. Stealing is stealing. In case you’ve forgotten, “Thou Shall Not Steal” is also a Commandment.

My issue is less with how valuable my possessions (possessions that me and my family have righteously earned by the way) and more with the fact of someone taking something they did not honestly deserve. I am not some selfish, materialistic Scrooge. I am simply a guy who values an honest way of earning his keep.

Know the difference. I hope you haven’t lost sight of it in your pursuit of your so-called “charity”.