You Think Chant is Too Hard for You?

[Cat]

Yes, but you see, it is really not acceptable that we have gotten to the point where we are where chant is rarely used. you can argue that it is not strictly required, but can we really say that we’re following the liturgical law if we are ignoring the very model of all liturgical music, the most supreme model, which should have the principal place in liturgical celebrations?

I would certainly agree with you that we are at a rather pitiful state in the Catholic Church when it comes to implementing Gregorian chant in the Masses.

But I don’t think we’re there because we’re “ignoring the very model of liturgical music…” I think we’re there because of our ignorance of music and singing, brought on by a culture in which families do not consider music education a priority, but a luxury.

As I have said over and over in this thread and others on CAF–we (and I include myself) do NOT have the musical chops to implement Gregorian chant! Even the musicians (me) don’t know anything about G. chant! Unless something is known, it can’t be taught.

For several decades, schools have devalued music education, and public schools have gradually eliminated all music that has any mention of the Christian god or religion.

In our city, public school elementary students currently receive one half-hour per week of chorus. That’s pathetic! (When I was growing up in the 1960s, we received a half hour of chorus each day, taught by a music teacher, and we did plenty of “religious” songs.)

Also in our public schools, there is tremendous pressure on the music teachers to teach “diversity” in music; in other words, not the Euro-Centric music, but soul, jazz, hip hop, and other ethnic music styles.

This of course means that ancient music styles will never or seldom be covered in schools, and might not even be mentioned.

Music is simply not valued in the schools in the U.S. Music is not covered on the SAT or ACT. It’s not considered a vital subject that will prepare a student for a viable career.

It is not only the schools that are guilty. Most churches haven’t had a true children’s choir taught by a professional musician or music teacher in years, perhaps decades. Parish schools don’t even necessarily have a children’s choir. In our city, only one parish school (ours) has a full-time music teacher; the other parish schools just have a part-time music teacher.

And then there are the parents. Many parents totally neglect a child’s music education. They don’t get their children involved in music lessons, or enroll them in a good community choir, or even sing to them. And around the house, they listen to pop and rock music, OR they listen to classical music and mistakenly believe that this will help their young children to become more musical, which is not true.

But we can’t really blame the parents, since many of them are so stretched for time and MONEY that music lessons and choirs are simply not an option. As for doing their own music preparation with their young children, most young parents just don’t have a clue about the best methods, and continue to play that Mozart for their babies and toddlers with the hopes that it will somehow transmit musical ability to their children. (It won’t.)

I honestly don’t think that Catholics are deliberately ignoring the Church’s desire for more Gregorian chant in the Masses. I think that it’s just not possible to implement given the current state of musical knowledge.

Hence my suggestion that a revival of Gregorian chant HAS to start with the CHILDREN. At least in parish schools, music education should be given a higher status, and good music teachers should be hired FULL-TIME. I think that parish schools should hire a piano/organ teacher to give lessons throughout the week, and that children should have access to the school and church pianos and organ to practice. Any child who shows interest and promise could be recommended for private lessons.

And I think that within the parishes, music committees should try to provide scholarships to music students. There should be fundraiser recitals to raise funds for these scholarships.

We MUST try to stop the downward spiral of music education in the U.S. and try to drag ourselves out of the musical mire.

Some people think that G. chant can be learned from the internet. I think that the internet can be a starting place, but there is no way that the internet can replace a passionate and expert teacher. Music can’t be learned from a machine.

 

[Sarabande]

I would certainly agree with you that we are at a rather pitiful state in the Catholic Church when it comes to implementing Gregorian chant in the Masses.

But I don’t think we’re there because we’re “ignoring the very model of liturgical music…” I think we’re there because of our ignorance of music and singing, brought on by a culture in which families do not consider music education a priority, but a luxury.

…(edited by me)…

It is not only the schools that are guilty. Most churches haven’t had a true children’s choir taught by a professional musician or music teacher in years, perhaps decades. Parish schools don’t even necessarily have a children’s choir. In our city, only one parish school (ours) has a full-time music teacher; the other parish schools just have a part-time music teacher.

And then there are the parents. Many parents totally neglect a child’s music education. They don’t get their children involved in music lessons, or enroll them in a good community choir, or even sing to them. And around the house, they listen to pop and rock music, OR they listen to classical music and mistakenly believe that this will help their young children to become more musical, which is not true.
…

I honestly don’t think that Catholics are deliberately ignoring the Church’s desire for more Gregorian chant in the Masses. I think that it’s just not possible to implement given the current state of musical knowledge.

Hence my suggestion that a revival of Gregorian chant HAS to start with the CHILDREN. At least in parish schools, music education should be given a higher status, and good music teachers should be hired FULL-TIME. I think that parish schools should hire a piano/organ teacher to give lessons throughout the week, and that children should have access to the school and church pianos and organ to practice. Any child who shows interest and promise could be recommended for private lessons.

And I think that within the parishes, music committees should try to provide scholarships to music students. There should be fundraiser recitals to raise funds for these scholarships.

We MUST try to stop the downward spiral of music education in the U.S. and try to drag ourselves out of the musical mire.

Some people think that G. chant can be learned from the internet. I think that the internet can be a starting place, but there is no way that the internet can replace a passionate and expert teacher. Music can’t be learned from a machine.

Spoken like a musician. So true. Nothing can compare to living and breathing teachers. It’s like doing Music-Minus-One. Having canned accompaniment is never as good.

Very good post. Completely agree about starting with the children. They will be the ones who will pass it on to the next generations because it will be second nature to them.

I do think that sometimes people believe no real effort or work need to be done to implement chant (I’m not referring to anyone here), as if it will just be an overnight success. There is a lot of talk, but no one wants to put out the time, money and effort to make it happen so that it stays and doesn’t just fizzle out. It’s an investment in the future. You do need music ministers who have experience and training in chant to implement it correctly. At some parishes I have freelanced in, they will include the organ to accompany the congregation when singing chant, especially since it is so new for many people. Unfortunately, the use of the organ is often not the best instrument to mimic the flowing nature of singing chant. It will often be played very metrically, almost ploddingly, losing the beauty and flow of the line. I don’t like chanting at all with an organ, quite honestly. I understand why it is done, but I think when you have a cantor or a choir who can do the chanting well, you don’t need the choir. The singers will lead the congregation along, carrying them within the ebbs and flows of the line in the chant.

As you mentioned, in the past music in schools were so much better. My older friends and parents’ generation talked about the music programs in their Catholic schools. In some schools, the kids would be climbing over each other in order to get time to practice on their parish organ and schedules had to be made so that all of the kids would be able to do this. This was during the 60s. My parents, who grew up in the 50s and 60s, were required to take Latin courses, in addition to their other language requirement in Catholic high school. None of that existed by the time I was in Catholic school in the 80s and 90s. And God forbid you gave children music homework… it would take time away from real work and their sports.

So what happened? We lost a few generations, who could have been fostering this tradition, but now it is like something foreign and strange and it may take a few generations to bring it back. Now, there are people in my generation and the generation after me who have gotten into the “re-birth” of bringing back chant into the Church, but we have a long road ahead. I have noticed a difference in attitude from when I first began this journey 10 years ago in college years. Before there seemed to almost be a certain level of contempt. It felt like an uphill battle and I had to keep positive and not feel downtrodden, hearing my mother’s motto in my head which used to annoy me whenever I wanted to give up on something, “Where there’s a will, there’s always a way”. I haven’t experienced that kind of negative pushback and contempt as much anymore, especially within the younger crowds (20s-30s). It’s more positive, so I think it’s going in the right direction. As time goes on, I do think people will figure out what is best for their parishes to implement this, especially as more and more people will have the experience and training.

 

[pnewton]

But certain vestments are required (although variations are allowed). The texts are required, and no one is allowed to mess with them.

Gregorian chant is NOT required, although it is recommended.

There is a huge difference between absolute requirements and preferences. “Should” and “must” are miles apart, and most of the stuff discussed here does not even arise to the “should” level.

No, there simply is no analogy, no comparison.

 

[pnewton]

And God forbid you gave children music homework… it would take time away from real work and their sports.

Hey, let’s not mess with football, okay? I mean, we still have to keep priorities straight.

I walked off on the A&M game yesterday in the third quarter to go to Mass. Someone asked me where my priorities were. I responded that I seemed to have mine in order. (My apologies to Tide fans). But still, we have to weigh the time spent on teaching everything we teach. Kids (and grown-up kids) still profit from diversion. Even a cloistered Carmelite community in San Antonio I know watch the Spurs games as part of their spirituality. It is actually required of the sisters.

Yet, when it comes to subjects like Latin and chant, I agree that it has a place in our Catholic schools. Just like we teach kids here part of our Texas heritage, it is important to teach our cultural heritage that we have from the Church. I realize as I type this it might mean I have to find a way to make this practical. I have never been a fan of suggestions that do no come with both solutions and a willingness to volunteer for that solution.

We lost a few generations, who could have been fostering this tradition, but now it is like something foreign and strange and it may take a few generations to bring it back. Now, there are people in my generation and the generation after me who have gotten into the “re-birth” of bringing back chant into the Church, but we have a long road ahead. I have noticed a difference in attitude from when I first began this journey 10 years ago in college years.

Some of what we have here at CAF is not because this tradition was not fostered, but rather because of the number of converts here. An influx of Protestants into the Church in America is going to change the culture somewhat. It is a good problem to have. Meet the needs of all, but retain the tradition of the Church.

 

[pnewton]

On a practical note, this summer my pastor said he wanted to have the Psalm always sung from the ambo. As we usually have but one musician, this means that it must be chanted. I have taken the opportunity to try and learn more about both chant notation, and the do’s and dont’s of chant. I write all the stuff out in chant notation and try to follow the rules, though this latter part I am still weak in. I still have my prejudice that all all songs should end on Do (major) or Mi (minor). I doubt I will shake that.

I also learned there is only one flat allowed (Ti becomes Te) which makes since as that is used in a common chord on guitar (seventh). I will never become a Gregorian person, but I might become gregorian-ish.

 

[Cat]

Some of what we have here at CAF is not because this tradition was not fostered, but rather because of the number of converts here. An influx of Protestants into the Church in America is going to change the culture somewhat. It is a good problem to have. Meet the needs of all, but retain the tradition of the Church.

I think there are several groups of converts (from Protestantism, that is).

Some converts want a very traditional Catholic “worship experience.” (I’m deliberately using Protestant-speak.) Latin, Gregorian chant, incense, etc.–bring it all on!

Others want to see more contemporary music in the Mass, and disagree that this music is “irreverent” or “inappropriate” for Mass, but instead, because of their Protestant background, find contemporary music much more reverent and worshipful than chant or other older styles.

I would put myself in this group.

I’m sure there are lots of other convert “groups.” I think that CAF tends to attract more of the first group, the “traditionalist” converts. All the converts I know tend to be in the second group. But of course, like all people, I tend to associate with people who have things in common with me.

Again, I will reiterate–the Mass music is NOT about our personal preferences. But as long as the priests have a choice, I don’t blame them for wanting to please their congregation. (I should just put this in my signature so I don’t have to keep repeating it for those who think I’m “anti-chant”.)

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Like I said before, would you do the same if people sighed that the priest had to wear all those vestments, or that he didn’t ad-lib any of the texts? Would you say that he shouldn’t wear vestments, or should toy with the text?

Of course not. That’s not in the same category. Music at all is an option in Mass, and once the priest chooses to have music, he also has options about what kind of music to use.

I think you are missing the point where the rest of us have said that we like chant, that it is used to some extent in the Masses we attend. But that we also know many people who don’t like it, who find it very hard to learn. Because of that we are careful to introduce it slowly and continue to include other forms of more familiar music in Mass.

Accusing people of not caring about the validity or correctness of Mass is not a good way to encourage advocates. A priest or music director who is trying not to overwhelm a parish with an unfamiliar and possible unliked form of music is not at all the same as a priest saying Mass in jeans and a t-shirt with made up words of consecration.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I also want to reiterate the problem of a lack of musical knowledge in general. Thankfully this are still has music programs starting in elementary school including general music, choral music and instruments. However, in some respects Catholic schools here have less musical education than public schools. Mostly it is a resource issue - there simply isn’t the money for one full time music teacher, let alone someone to teach choir, strings, and band instruments! The public school curriculum does include sacred music in jr and high school choral programs, but no one is teaching any form of chant.

In my parish, if it hadn’t been for a deliberate effort to hire a someone who could teach chant (as well as other forms), we would not be singing the chant we do. After a year since the new translations, the congregation is rather comfortable with what we do. But again, we sing ONE setting. We sing it at every Sunday Mass. Basicially we’ve memorized the ‘tunes’. No one has learned to read chant notation, no one in the congregation could sing a different setting.

If a different setting is introduced, the same thing will happened that happened this time. The congregation will stop singing until after they have heard the choir or cantors enough times to memorize the new setting. Perhaps just several weeks for some, perhaps several months for others. A year later we will sound OK again.

 

[Windmill]

Here’s my son singing the salve regina…

youtube.com/watch?v=elmP6rrDws8

 

[Elizabeth779]

Great discussion and very informative of all your opinions for a old musician, and a new Catholic musician.

As a Catholic convert…daughter of a Baptist minister…and I grew up playing music in Church – all preacher’s daughters do that I think it’s in the genes or something…

Anyway, as a Catholic convert…and a Catholic musician, I want the music to be as Catholic as possible.

I’m enjoying learning Chant…and it’s not easy because it’s hard to find adequate instruction, but lately have been using youtube for chant instruction.

Also, my parish chants the Our Father…and some people have told me they are uncomfortable with it, so I’m going to start playing it as prelude to emphasize the notes…hope that will help.

Great thread though – very informative.