You'll be happy to know that

[runandsew]

Since James and Paul’s were writing about faith and salvation to resolve certain issues within the Church, and has been interpreted either way by Christians, I like to read the Gospels and see what Jesus said about how one is saved, or how one enters the Kingdom of God. I would say that would be the “tie breaker”.

 

[FCEGM]

I found out I was wrong. I read CLOSELY the second chapter of James.

It DOES talk about justification being by faith AND works. I was angry when I read it though. I had never seen that before.

I am far from Catholic but I wanted to let some of you know that I am not an idiot and I know how to search the Scriptures. I also wanted to let you know that even though I am not even close to being a Catholic, some of you have been a positive influence on me.

Looks to me like one of the Sola’s was shot down. I’m hurt and I’m angry. I’m sorry though, but I just cannot reject Sola Scriptura. I cannot reject Sola Fide either. I hope everyone has a good day tomorrow. I’m outta here for the night.

God bless you for your perseverance towards a fuller knowledge of Christ’s Self-revelation and what it means to adhere to Him.

I think you would find these articles helpful in better understanding the Catholic teaching on this topic:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a127.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a53.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a119.htm

 

[Pax]

I found out I was wrong. I read CLOSELY the second chapter of James.

It DOES talk about justification being by faith AND works. I was angry when I read it though. I had never seen that before.

I am far from Catholic but I wanted to let some of you know that I am not an idiot and I know how to search the Scriptures. I also wanted to let you know that even though I am not even close to being a Catholic, some of you have been a positive influence on me.

Looks to me like one of the Sola’s was shot down. I’m hurt and I’m angry. I’m sorry though, but I just cannot reject Sola Scriptura. I cannot reject Sola Fide either. I hope everyone has a good day tomorrow. I’m outta here for the night.

You sound a bit conflicted and that may be a good thing. You are willing to listen, think, and analyze matters of doctrine. I would suggest that you be as open minded as possible. We all come to the table with what we have been taught and when it comes to our faith the doctrines we have learned are held near and dear to our hearts. Traditions run deep and they are not easily overcome even when the evidence may be against them. If you truly seek the truth with an open and prayerful mind all will eventually fall into place. Your acknowledgments in your post are refreshing…they show what you are made of.

 

[mikeledes]

James is one of my favorite books. Protestants often read Romans and Ephesians and fail to read James. Sometimes I think that Catholics read James and fail to read Romans and Ephesians. James tells us that a faith that does not result in good works is dead. James tells us that we cannot credit ourselves because we belief that God is one, because even the demons believe that and shudder. So, a faith that does not display the fruit of good works is a faith that is not a saving faith, but merely an intellectual faith. There are numerous threads in this forum regarding the faith/works discussion with posts by some pretty sharp people on both the Catholic and Protestant sides of the issue. I would encourage you to do a search for those threads and read them.

James 2:24

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Question:

1. Is the faith mentioned in the verse genuine faith? Is it saying we are justified by “intellectual faith” and works?
2. Is this verse talking about justification? If not, why is the word “justified” used?

God Bless,
michael

 

[Damascus]

Yes I am happy you saw this in scripture for yourself, but may I ask gently why at the end of your post you say you are not going to reject SS or SF?

Why is SS something you can not reject when we established its not biblical?

Or did we not get that far yet? I forgot. I was trying. Can we try again on SS?

 

[rr1213]

James 2:24

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Question:

1. Is the faith mentioned in the verse genuine faith? Is it saying we are justified by “intellectual faith” and works?
2. Is this verse talking about justification? If not, why is the word “justified” used?

God Bless,
michael

The faith that justifies a man is a faith that is alive, not dead. An alive faith is more than an intellectual assent, but a faith that is of the quality to motivate you to change your life. It is a faith that will show fruits (or works). So, if your faith is merely intellectual, it is not a genuine faith.

 

[mikeledes]

The faith that justifies a man is a faith that is alive, not dead. An alive faith is more than an intellectual assent, but a faith that is of the quality to motivate you to change your life. It is a faith that will show fruits (or works). So, if your faith is merely intellectual, it is not a genuine faith.

So is James 2:24 saying:

“You see that man is justified by works and not by intellectual faith alone.”

or

“You see that man is justified by works and not by dead faith alone.”

or
“You see that man is justified by works and not by alive faith alone.”

BTW, verse 24 is referencing Abraham’s faith since it poinst to the previous verses on the sacrifice of Isaace to prove the point of verse 24, hence the use of “You see.” Therefore, the faith referred to in verse 24 is genuine justifying faith.

Also:

2 Peter 1:6-11

**For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.**

As this verse indicates, genuine justifying faith (i.e. cleansed from past sins) does not automatically lead to good works. Good works involve an act of the will (i.e. make every effort), obedience to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. One can certainly resist the Holy Spirit and fail to persevere in doing good.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Cardinalsong]

I found out I was wrong. I read CLOSELY the second chapter of James.

It DOES talk about justification being by faith AND works. I was angry when I read it though. I had never seen that before.

I am far from Catholic but I wanted to let some of you know that I am not an idiot and I know how to search the Scriptures. I also wanted to let you know that even though I am not even close to being a Catholic, some of you have been a positive influence on me.

Looks to me like one of the Sola’s was shot down. I’m hurt and I’m angry. I’m sorry though, but I just cannot reject Sola Scriptura. I cannot reject Sola Fide either. I hope everyone has a good day tomorrow. I’m outta here for the night.

Hoosier, I know how you feel because I was in a state of disbelief at first but over time instead of being angry of not seeing certain scriptures before, I got excited. It was like “The scales that fell off my eyes” . I was able to see clearly for the first time in my life. I considered it my “wandering in the desert for 40 years” because this all happened around my 40th birthday! :dancing:

Now that I revealed my age…well…that’s another topic altogether

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Yes I am happy you saw this in scripture for yourself, but may I ask gently why at the end of your post you say you are not going to reject SS or SF?

Why is SS something you can not reject when we established its not biblical?

Or did we not get that far yet? I forgot. I was trying. Can we try again on SS?

First of all, I want to thank everyone for their posts. Even you Randy. I will try to answer each individually as I can.

Damascus, thank you. Well, I don’t believe you established SS was biblical. I just can’t reject SS and SF. I believe that apart from SS any old teaching can be added and we’d have to believe it if we didn’t accept SS. SS protects us from false teaching.

This is just something I found at reformed.com/pub/rc.htm (you won’t particularly like the site but I just wanted to use an example to give you some idea of why I cannot reject SS)

Authority. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the Bible and tradition as interpreted by the Church are the final seat of authority in religion. [3] Jesus condemned tradition as a rule for religious authority and exalted the Word of God: “The Pharisees and Scribes asked him, ‘Why do not thy disciples walk according to the tradition of the ancients…?’ But answering he said to them, ‘…in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrine the precepts of men. For letting go the commandment of God, you hold fast the tradition of men… Well do you nullify the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition… You make void the commandment of God by your tradition’” (Mk. 7:5-13 DB).

The Bible clearly condemns adding doctrine to what God has given in His Word: “You must add nothing to what I command you, and take nothing from it, but keep the commandments of Yahweh your God just as I lay them down to you” (Dt. 4:2 JB).

 

[Damascus]

Damascus, thank you. **Well, I don’t believe you established SS was biblical. **

I just can’t reject SS and SF. I believe that apart from SS any old teaching can be added and we’d have to believe it if we didn’t accept SS. SS protects us from false teaching.

I am sure glad I did not establish SS as biblical! Because, I can’t.
It’s not biblical. Bibles dont protect us from anything unless they are what stops a bullet in a drive by or something. Dont get me wrong, I read it and use it, but it is not going to protect me from a thing. In fact, who is going to protect me from twisting it?

This is just something I found at reformed.com/pub/rc.htm

Okay, you will be happy to know that nothing was added that is not coming from Christ and his apostles he put in charge. Nothing unbiblical.

Glad you are back. Now when I get a chance I want you to tell me your feelings on the Matt 12:25 chapter I spoke of earlier and then lets talk about the visible/invisible thing again. Get ready for some bible.

But, I am pressed for time. I will do my best to catch up here.

 

[Liberian]

Looks to me like one of the Sola’s was shot down. I’m hurt and I’m angry.

Hoosier Daddy,

It looks like you are also a better man than about 99.9 percent of the rest of the world, seeing that you have the good grace and humility to admit publicly a mistake.

I’m sorry though, but I just cannot reject Sola Scriptura. I cannot reject Sola Fide either.

If I may offer you something on Sola Fide, some Evangelicals have defined it to include repentance (turning away) from one’s sins–which the Catholic Church would consider a work, impelled by grace but still a work–, surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and a complete submission to His commandments–which again the Catholic Church would consider works. As such, the “Sola Fide” condemned at the Council of Trent bears no practical resemblance to the beliefs of these modern Evangelicals. In fact, there is little if any difference between this Evangelical belief and the teachings of the Catholic Church on this subject.

• Liberian

 

[hoosierdaddy]

LOL I can’t believe I made that grammatical error. argh! You know what I meant though.

I’m sorry, I didn’t ignore your question on the visible Church. I just forgot and to tell you the truth, I really don’t know much about that. Pretty much all I know about it is what I said already. I welcome the discussion though.

The Word protects us from many things. It protects us from deception. It protects us from sin, if we heed it. It protects us from the enemy. It even tells us to put on the full armour of God and what each piece of that armour is. Apart from Scripture we’d have no idea.

I can’t see me giving up on SS anytime in the future, however am still interested in the discussion. It challenges me and I hope I can challenge you. Get back when you can. Take care.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Thank you Liberian and I hear what you’re saying.

The thing with repentance though is that some view it as a gift from God. Probably Calvinists but maybe some others. I am aware of how some can see it as a work and if it is, I guess it is the work that Jesus demands. Faith and works=faith +repentance? Maybe.

 

[mercygate]

Damascus, thank you. Well, I don’t believe you established SS was biblical. I just can’t reject SS and SF. I believe that apart from SS any old teaching can be added and we’d have to believe it if we didn’t accept SS. SS protects us from false teaching.

No, it don’t! Look at all the ecclesial bodies that swear by SS but teach different “truths.”

Authority. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the Bible and tradition as interpreted by the Church are the final seat of authority in religion.

. . . based on the Scriptural position that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth (I Tim 3:15)

[3] Jesus condemned tradition as a rule for religious authority and exalted the Word of God: “The Pharisees and Scribes asked him, ‘Why do not thy disciples walk according to the tradition of the ancients…?’ But answering he said to them, ‘…in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrine the precepts of men. For letting go the commandment of God, you hold fast the tradition of men… Well do you nullify the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition… You make void the commandment of God by your tradition’” (Mk. 7:5-13 DB).

Read what is actually written. Jesus is not condemning tradition per se but tradition that makes “void the commandment of God.” Big difference.

The Bible clearly condemns adding doctrine to what God has given in His Word: “You must add nothing to what I command you, and take nothing from it, but keep the commandments of Yahweh your God just as I lay them down to you” (Dt. 4:2 JB).

Nothing in Catholic doctrine “adds” to the divine word, though that is an accusation we frequently hear. Catholic teaching may clarify the divine word but never adds to it or “voids” it. Actually, this verse from Deuteronomy is one that Jews cite when arguing that Jesus cannot possibly be the Messiah. In order to approach the “bigness” of Catholic theology, you have to embrace Scripture in its entirety. Verse clipping just can’t measure up to the fullness and the majesty of the totality of the Divine Word.

 

[Damascus]

LOL I can’t believe I made that grammatical error. argh! You know what I meant though. :thumbsup

Okay, give me about a half hour I need to clean up a minor flood in the basement from a leaking pipe under the laundry tub…URGGH.

 

[The_Catholic]

First of all, I want to thank everyone for their posts. Even you Randy. I will try to answer each individually as I can.

Damascus, thank you. Well, I don’t believe you established SS was biblical. I just can’t reject SS and SF. I believe that apart from SS any old teaching can be added and we’d have to believe it if we didn’t accept SS. SS protects us from false teaching.

This is just something I found at reformed.com/pub/rc.htm (you won’t particularly like the site but I just wanted to use an example to give you some idea of why I cannot reject SS)

Authority. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the Bible and tradition as interpreted by the Church are the final seat of authority in religion. [3] Jesus condemned tradition as a rule for religious authority and exalted the Word of God: “The Pharisees and Scribes asked him, ‘Why do not thy disciples walk according to the tradition of the ancients…?’ But answering he said to them, ‘…in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrine the precepts of men. For letting go the commandment of God, you hold fast the tradition of men… Well do you nullify the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition… You make void the commandment of God by your tradition’” (Mk. 7:5-13 DB).

The Bible clearly condemns adding doctrine to what God has given in His Word: “You must add nothing to what I command you, and take nothing from it, but keep the commandments of Yahweh your God just as I lay them down to you” (Dt. 4:2 JB).

1 Cor. 11:2: “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the TRADITIONS (Paradosis in Greek) even as I have delivered them to you.”

2 Thess. 2:15: “Stand firm and hold to the TRADITIONS which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”

2 Thess. 3:6: “Keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the TRADITION that you received from us.”

Also check out Luke 1: 1-2; 1 Cor. 11: 23; 1 Cor. 15: 3; 2 Peter 2: 21; Jude 3; 1 Cor. 15: 1-2; Galatians 1: 9, 12.

Tradition simply means one who is not expressing his own peculiar viewpoints, but is delivering a message received from someone else. Now this “tradition” can be good or bad. The tradition that jesus condemns is HUMAN TRADITION:

Colossians 2:8: “See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to HUMAN TRADITION, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to christ.”

Also look at Matt. 15: 3, 6; and Mark 7: 8-9, 13. Where tradition is spoken of as “YOUR TRADITION” or “TRADITIONS OF MEN.”

But the so many verses prior to these clearly show a “SACRED TRADITION” passed on by the Holy Spirit, the Comforter who will come to lead God’s people into ALL Truth.

So you see there is a “tradition” of men and a “tradition” of God and the latter is what the Catholic Church believes she has.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

No, it don’t! Look at all the ecclesial bodies that swear by SS but teach different "truths."

Teaching different truths though doesn’t negate SS. Scripture says we see through a glass darkly. Some see one thing, others see something else. That is why the Body needs the Body. My friend, this is the last time I am going to confront this strawman though: Protestants are united in Christ. Various other beliefs about secondary things do not take away from the unity that we have in Christ.

**Authority. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the Bible and tradition as interpreted by the Church are the final seat of authority in religion.

. . . based on the Scriptural position that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth (I Tim 3:15)**

Good, then the Church will only teach from the Bible from now on?

Read what is actually written. Jesus is not condemning tradition per se but tradition that makes “void the commandment of God.” Big difference

Wouldn’t this include any tradition that is not found in Scripture?

Nothing in Catholic doctrine “adds” to the divine word, though that is an accusation we frequently hear. Catholic teaching may clarify the divine word but never adds to it or “voids” it. Actually, this verse from Deuteronomy is one that Jews cite when arguing that Jesus cannot possibly be the Messiah. In order to approach the “bigness” of Catholic theology, you have to embrace Scripture in its entirety. Verse clipping just can’t measure up to the fullness and the majesty of the totality of the Divine Word.

I don’t know, wasn’t it in the 1800s that the doctrines on Mary were finally “confirmed”? Yes, you have to embrace the entirety of Scripture. I do this.

As for verse clipping, if only we could get the small amount of Catholics on this site that do that to stop doing that. I’ve had to correct two different people who used 1Corinthians 3:10-12 to “teach” that we can lose our salvation. If only they’d go on to read the next verse to see the passage is not teaching that at all. God bless.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Okay, give me about a half hour I need to clean up a minor flood in the basement from a leaking pipe under the laundry tub…URGGH

Will do. If I’m not on I should be on later to try and answer you. Sorry to hear about the flood. Good luck with the cleanup. In all my comedic glory, which patron saint would most likely respond to your predicament?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

So you see there is a “tradition” of men and a “tradition” of God and the latter is what the Catholic Church believes she has.

I understand. At this time though, I can only conclude that she “believes” she has the latter.

 

[JezuUfamTobie]

I found out I was wrong. I read CLOSELY the second chapter of James.

It DOES talk about justification being by faith AND works. I was angry when I read it though. I had never seen that before.

I am far from Catholic but I wanted to let some of you know that I am not an idiot and I know how to search the Scriptures. I also wanted to let you know that even though I am not even close to being a Catholic, some of you have been a positive influence on me.

Looks to me like one of the Sola’s was shot down. I’m hurt and I’m angry. I’m sorry though, but I just cannot reject Sola Scriptura. I cannot reject Sola Fide either. I hope everyone has a good day tomorrow. I’m outta here for the night.

Just wanted to pipe in and say that I really admire you for making this post. You’ll be in my prayers! Please pray for my family, too.