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You have nothing to entice us, same sex marriage, abortion, gay priests, stem cell research, the Catholic Church has remained steadfast in it opposition to those and many more sick laws.

I don’t want to get into personal attacks between churches but have you been following the news the past few years in regards to the Catholic Church? And the church right in my neighbourhood…the priest is no longer a priest because he is gay."

He is NO LONGER a priest because HE IS GAY! Exactly! He can no longer serve as a priest while living in a continuous mortal sin.
The Church can not keep an eye on ever single one of it’s members at all times so it’s um
wise to claim that the Catholic Church is falling away.

And even though there are at times unGodly men in the head of the Church, nevertheless, the heart of the Church is, has always been, and always will be against those disgusting mortal sins.

God bless you.
 
TheCatholic>>He is NO LONGER a priest because HE IS GAY! Exactly! He can no longer serve as a priest while living in a continuous mortal sin.
The Church can not keep an eye on ever single one of it’s members at all times so it’s um
wise to claim that the Catholic Church is falling away.
And even though there are at times unGodly men in the head of the Church, nevertheless, the heart of the Church is, has always been, and always will be against those disgusting mortal sins.
God bless you.
**Exactly. Before he left the priesthood one could rightfully say the Catholic Church had at least one gay priest. Could it be possible that there are others who have just not come out of the closet at this time? Heck to be merciful, could it be possible that there are some that are struggling with the issue and trying their best to give it up?

You mentioned mortal sin. Isn’t all sin mortal? The conclusion in your second paragraph doesn’t match your first sentence. I don’t see how the two go together.

I agree. The heart of the Church has always been against such things. Even Protestant churches…well…real ones anyways. God bless you too.**
 
I hope that you know that you will have to give an account to God for every word you say, for every deed that you do, for every thought you think. So I would be careful about calling Protestants igorant. That’s also in the Bible

Proud to be Baptist
allischalmers
I AM aware that I will have to give account for every word I say and every deed I commit, so please mind your tounge! I meant no disrespect. I have plenty of Protestant friends, and plenty of non-Catholic friends. And I myself used to be Protestant, a Calvinist, and even an anti-Catholic.You do not know the trials and struggles that I go through in my everyday life. I am WELL AWARE and ESPECIALY ASHAMED of my sins!!!

But I do not believe that protestants speak the Truth when they teach Solo Scriptua, Baptism is only a sign, the real presence in wrong, ANTI-CATHOLICISM!! Etc.

Yes I believe that the Catholic Church IS the True Church of God. But I DO NOT condemn others who disagree with Catholicism. And i would HOPE TO GOD that they were IGNORANT and not AROGANT in their Faith. Ignorance can be excused in you are sincere about your love for Christ. Arogance cannot as you are PRIDEFUL in your beliefs, like the typical pharisees.

And I have no problem at all with other Christian groups telling me that they (Baptist Church, Seven Day Adventist Church, etc.) are the true church and what I believe is wrong. Just as long as they don’t say that I am dammed for disagreeing on them with the Saturday Sabbath.

God bless you.
 
You have nothing to entice us, same sex marriage, abortion, gay priests, stem cell research, the Catholic Church has remained steadfast in it opposition to those and many more sick laws.

I don’t want to get into personal attacks between churches but have you been following the news the past few years in regards to the Catholic Church? And the church right in my neighbourhood…the priest is no longer a priest because he is gay.
And you have a problem with that I which underlined ? isn’t that action being taken by the Church, although I don’t know the pacific case, each has to be heard separately.

What action is being taken by the other churches, appeasement ?
Now, as to anything enticing you. That’s fine. Christ is the enticement. But we most certainly don’t have same sex marriage, abortion, gay priests (or any priest for that matter), stem cell research, etc. etc. etc. in my Baptist church. 😃
Really ???

The news yes, who hasn’t,the difference is accepting those, the Catholic Church doesn’t accept them, it shall never condone any of those.

And if your hinting about clerical sexual abuse then the percentage is very low, but one is one too many.
 
TheCatholic>>I AM aware that I will have to give account for every word I say and every deed I commit, so please mind your tounge! I meant no disrespect. I have plenty of Protestant friends, and plenty of non-Catholic friends. And I myself used to be Protestant, a Calvinist, and even an anti-Catholic.You do not know the trials and struggles that I go through in my everyday life. I am WELL AWARE and ESPECIALY ASHAMED of my sins!!!
If the Catholic Church is really the true Church then your story is nothing short of a miracle.👍
But I do not believe that protestants speak the Truth when they teach Solo Scriptua, Baptism is only a sign, the real presence in wrong, ANTI-CATHOLICISM!! Etc.
I think the problem that many people have with the real presence is that it seems illogical. They also fear committing idolatry by holding up a piece of bread and proclaiming it to be God. You see, they may be wrong in their belief but they do feel they are honouring God and I’m sure God sees their hearts. It is, after all, not the Gospel that they are mistaken on. You don’t go to hell for misinterpreting the real presence. At best, you may die early.
And I have no problem at all with other Christian groups telling me that they (Baptist Church, Seven Day Adventist Church, etc.) are the true church and what I believe is wrong. Just as long as they don’t say that I am dammed for disagreeing on them with the Saturday Sabbath.
How come your Church teaches no eating meat on Friday? I break that every week. I’m not a fish fan. 😃
 
TheCatholic>>He is NO LONGER a priest because HE IS GAY! Exactly! He can no longer serve as a priest while living in a continuous mortal sin.

The Church can not keep an eye on ever single one of it’s members at all times so it’s um
wise to claim that the Catholic Church is falling away.

And even though there are at times unGodly men in the head of the Church, nevertheless, the heart of the Church is, has always been, and always will be against those disgusting mortal sins.

God bless you.
**Exactly. Before he left the priesthood one could rightfully say the Catholic Church had at least one gay priest. Could it be possible that there are others who have just not come out of the closet at this time? Heck to be merciful, could it be possible that there are some that are struggling with the issue and trying their best to give it up? **

You mentioned mortal sin. Isn’t all sin mortal? The conclusion in your second paragraph doesn’t match your first sentence. I don’t see how the two go together."
No not every sin is mortal, I do not believe so and neither does the Church teach this.

1 John 5:16: “If any man see his brother sin a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say he shall pray for it.” King James Version

I also find it interesting that in the Old Testament not every punishment for sin was the death penalty. Some were, other cases were not.

I am personaly against jail sentences and other ridiculous “punishments” our country has. God’s way in the Old Testament was perfect! The best! Most logical too! Sorry, don’t mean to change the subject.

God bless you.
 
And you have a problem with that I which underlined ? isn’t that action being taken by the Church, although I don’t know the pacific case, each has to be heard separately.

How come it is ok for you to cast doubt on my character by the tone of your questions? What if I asked if you think it’s ok to do something that you really don’t believe? I never said that I had a problem with it. You missed my point completely; that being that you do have gay priests. He left, but he was a priest. And he is gay. And I’m sure there may be many others who haven’t come out of the closet yet. Your argument was flawed from the beginning because you were making generalizations.

What action is being taken by the other churches, appeasement ?
**
I don’t know what you mean. **

Really ???

yes really. My Baptist church is against all those things. You haven’t even asked what Baptist church I go to.

The news yes, who hasn’t,the difference is accepting those, the Catholic Church doesn’t accept them, it shall never condone any of those.

And if your hinting about clerical sexual abuse then the percentage is very low, but one is one too many.

I’m not hinting. I’d have come right out and said it but in the interest of charity I didn’t. However, I’m sure there is more than a very low percentage although you’re right. One is too many. And I’m sure it exists in Protestant churches too. But just because it may be there doesn’t mean that we condone it.
 
No not every sin is mortal, I do not believe so and neither does the Church teach this.
1 John 5:16: “If any man see his brother sin a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say he shall pray for it.” King James Version
I see what you mean. What I was getting at was that all sin is worthy of condemnation to hell. That’s what I meant by all sin being mortal. Take care. Gotta head to work. 😦
 
Jesus said no-one can say Jesus is Lord unless the Holy Spirit revealed it to them, so I assume they believed.

This is talking about someone actually knowing that Jesus is Lord and actually having conviction that Jesus is Lord.

Before I was a Christian I could say Jesus was Lord. However, I lacked conviction. Even the demons in the gospels said that Jesus was the Holy One or the Lord.
Didn’t the Apostles complain to Jesus that there were some using His Name to drive out devils, and Jesus told them to leave them alone.

Jesus said that they weren’t against Him.

If they weren’t believers how did they drive out devils, remember what Jesus said about no house dived against itself, "can one devil drive out another " ?
 
TheCatholic>>I AM aware that I will have to give account for every word I say and every deed I commit, so please mind your tounge! I meant no disrespect. I have plenty of Protestant friends, and plenty of non-Catholic friends. And I myself used to be Protestant, a Calvinist, and even an anti-Catholic.You do not know the trials and struggles that I go through in my everyday life. I am WELL AWARE and ESPECIALY ASHAMED of my sins!!!

If the Catholic Church is really the true Church then your story is nothing short of a miracle.👍

(The Catholic) Hoosierdaddy, I don’t understand you coments on this.

But I do not believe that protestants speak the Truth when they teach Solo Scriptua, Baptism is only a sign, the real presence in wrong, ANTI-CATHOLICISM!! Etc.

I think the problem that many people have with the real presence is that it seems illogical. They also fear committing idolatry by holding up a piece of bread and proclaiming it to be God. You see, they may be wrong in their belief but they do feel they are honouring God and I’m sure God sees their hearts. It is, after all, not the Gospel that they are mistaken on. You don’t go to hell for misinterpreting the real presence. At best, you may die early.

(The Catholic) Illogical huh? Do you believe in the Trinity? That’s extremly “illogical.” It in NO WAY makes any logical sense and that’s why so many non-christians and even some christians deny it. The existence of God is illogical to more than half the world’s scientists, so they deny Him. But in Holy Scripture the evidence for the Trinity, as I can see it, is there. And ESPECIALY for the Real Presence. For me, the Real Presence is much easier for me to believe than the Trinity is. It’s also interestibg that I think every single early christian group, even the unorthodox ones, believed in the Real presence.


And I have no problem at all with other Christian groups telling me that they (Baptist Church, Seven Day Adventist Church, etc.) are the true church and what I believe is wrong. Just as long as they don’t say that I am dammed for disagreeing on them with the Saturday Sabbath.

How come your Church teaches no eating meat on Friday? I break that every week. I’m not a fish fan. 😃
That’s a good manmade tradition. It’s not Biblical. The practice is to draw you closer to Christ. And you can eat meat if you give up another sacrifice that you cherish dearly. But this gets complicated and I would rather have another explain lent.

God bless you.
 
  1. to the original poster (Dennis?): Its a matter of authority, these are heresies to Sola gracia. Sola Fide Deo gloria Scriptura Jesus branches of Christianity, but not the RCC. They believe they have the keys to the kingdom, with the authority to establish doctrine(with divine guidance of course), and dont mind using them.
  2. To the RCC responders: Why all the rhetoric? Why not support the decisions with whatever Council, edict or Papal Bull used to enact/defend them? These decisions actually can be ‘supported’ with selective understanding of the Solas.
I thought there were some good issues raised among the group(like idolatry, Purgatory, veneration of Saints), and some that didnt belong(like the Latin Mass being an unknown tongue)

I think Hoosier is trying to understand his brethren in Christ, not condemn.
 
I like hoosierdaddy alot. He or she (don’t know the gender) is pretty cool and I’m enjoying fellowshipping with you.😃
 
**There is no salvation outside of the Church and even non Catholics will be saved in some mysterious way through Christ and His Church. even by the backdoor. **

I don’t know…I still disagree with the above statement. It is wrong and “confusing” as well.
Actually, this is only confusing at the outset. It allows for all those who, because of “invincible ignorance” (that’s the technical term), and through no fault of their own, could not “confess with their lips” and believe in Jesus Christ.

Catholic theology does not express with conviction that anybody specifically will be condemned, because, as James tells us, it is God’s will that all be saved. Nevertheless, we KNOW that the “door” is Christ and Christ alone. The Church is his Body – and in the ordinary scheme of things the Church is the front door. The Church, as Christ’s own Body, will be the instrument of salvation even for those who are not in it.

The line in the sand, however, is that if one determines that the Church (the Catholic Church) is, indeed, the Church Jesus promised to build, and rejects it, he has placed his soul in mortal danger.

It makes a lot of sense to me. We don’t second guess God but we do trust that he meant what he said when he promised the eleven to be “with you always.” When I was a Protestant, I never noticed that those words were spoken only to the eleven. I had to become Catholic when I realized that the promises of guidance “into all the truth” and to be “with you always” were made to the eleven. It meant that the Apostolic Church(es) – those with bishops in Apostolic Succession – were the privileged place of encounter with Christ. Page two was the realization that since the promise of indefectibility was made to Peter, then, if Peter (Rome) was not in my house of Bishops, I was just playing a game of personal preference.

My last outcry before making my life confession was "Lord! What am I doing here? Who in his right mind would want to be CATHOLIC!!!" But when I opened up my Psalter, my glance fell on the line: “O God, my heart is ready.”
 
Actually, this is only confusing at the outset. It allows for all those who, because of “invincible ignorance” (that’s the technical term), and through no fault of their own, could not “confess with their lips” and believe in Jesus Christ.

Catholic theology does not express with conviction that anybody specifically will be condemned, because, as James tells us, it is God’s will that all be saved. Nevertheless, we KNOW that the “door” is Christ and Christ alone. The Church is his Body – and in the ordinary scheme of things the Church is the front door. The Church, as Christ’s own Body, will be the instrument of salvation even for those who are not in it.

The line in the sand, however, is that if one determines that the Church (the Catholic Church) is, indeed, the Church Jesus promised to build, and rejects it, he has placed his soul in mortal danger.

It makes a lot of sense to me. We don’t second guess God but we do trust that he meant what he said when he promised the eleven to be “with you always.” When I was a Protestant, I never noticed that those words were spoken only to the eleven. I had to become Catholic when I realized that the promises of guidance “into all the truth” and to be “with you always” were made to the eleven. It meant that the Apostolic Church(es) – those with bishops in Apostolic Succession – were the privileged place of encounter with Christ. Page two was the realization that since the promise of indefectibility was made to Peter, then, if Peter (Rome) was not in my house of Bishops, I was just playing a game of personal preference.

My last outcry before making my life confession was "Lord! What am I doing here? Who in his right mind would want to be CATHOLIC!!!" But when I opened up my Psalter, my glance fell on the line: “O God, my heart is ready.”
I often wonder though, who in their right mind who knew that the Catholic Church was the TRUE Church of Christ and STILL decide NOT to enter it? That’s like saying NO to God’s face. It’s strange.
 
**I believe Paul was working out his salvation with fear and trembling because he was already eternally saved. One who wasn’t would care to. **
Woa. The “because” part of your statement would seem to be a reason to neither work out nor have fear regarding one’s salvation, wouldn’t it?
If Paul has any fear regarding his salvation, consider why that would be…

If Paul turned away he would prove that he NEVER was part of the Church. I just don’t believe that he could turn away if indeed he was a true believer.

Yes. I know and respect that that’s what you believe. I’m simply asserting that his attitude of fear and trembling, and working out his salvation, ought to make you consider whether in fact he could turn away from the Church.

It’s not far-fetched; the earliest Christian writers don’t mind saying that all believers were capable of losing their salvation. None of them that I know of said that this would mean they never really believed.

Peace.
John
 
Yes. I know and respect that that’s what you believe. I’m simply asserting that his attitude of fear and trembling, and working out his salvation, ought to make you consider whether in fact he could turn away from the Church.

It’s not far-fetched; the earliest Christian writers don’t mind saying that all believers were capable of losing their salvation. None of them that I know of said that this would mean they never really believed.

Peace.
John
You don’t need any Christian writers earlier than Luke. Our Lord himself affirms this in the parable of the seed and the sower, when he speaks of those who “believe only for a time” (Lk 8:13). Jesus does not qualify their belief as “said faith” as opposed to “true faith.” He says outright that they “believe.” To qualify this further is to quibble with the text. The word is “pisteuosin:” they believe.
 
It is putting your full trust in Christ alone for your salvation. It is the other half of the equation from confessing with your lips. Both are necessary providing one is not a mute. The Bible teaches this.

I imagine it’s no different than believing in your heart that any other Catholic doctrines are true?
Does this mean that you must love God in order to have a saving faith?

Does this mean that you must believe everything that Jesus tells us in the good news of the gospel?

Does this mean that you must believe that Jesus is the King of Kings?

If you care to add any additional details after responding to these questions I would appreciate whatever comments you might make. I only ask these questions because I don’t feel like your statement has been amplified sufficiently in order to give me a clear understanding of all that you may or may not think and believe.

Thanks
 
The Word protects us from many things. It protects us from deception.
After James 2, Ephesians 4 is probably the chapter in the Bible most neglected by Protestants. Here’s a portion of it:

“And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of the ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed back and forth and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.”

So yes, the Bible does protect us against deception; but probably not in the way you think. It does so by pointing us toward the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and the teachers who will guard us against cunning men and their deceptions.

Throughout history, false teachers have always quoted Scripture to support their false doctrines. Peter dealt with such false teachers in His second letter. He describes such teachers for the better portion of the second chapter, starting with “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.” In the last chapter of his letter, Peter explains how they bring destruction upon themselves: “And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.”

We are protected by God against the deception of men, but it’s not via Sola Scripture, for even the devil can quote Scripture. We are protected by God through the Church, the pillar and foundation of the truth; through the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the teachers, and the pastors He has given us.
It even tells us to put on the full armour of God and what each piece of that armour is. Apart from Scripture we’d have no idea.
I think we’d have an idea. Remember, when Paul wrote his second letter to the Thessalonians, he said, “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” The Apostles didn’t merely write the word of God; they spoke it. And not only the Apostles spoke the word of God: the author of Hebrews writes, “Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.”
I can’t see me giving up on SS anytime in the future, however am still interested in the discussion. It challenges me and I hope I can challenge you. Get back when you can. Take care.
I until just over a year ago, I’d believed Sola Scriptura, at least in theory. But when I realized that Scriptura itself teaches something else, I had to give it up.

Jeremy
 
Gotta run to work. Will try to answer these and other posts in time. God bless.
 
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