Young believers and Traditional Catholicism vs Evangelicalism

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Hi all,

I would be interested in your thoughts on this. If you look at the demographics of catholic churchs worldwide, the key point is that congregations are, on average, getting old i.e. over 55-60.

This is couple with a progression of youth believers moving to evangelical churches. Often developing countries are singled out as proof the catholic church can survive, but recently I see that the evangelicals have tapped into Brazil too tinyurl.com/y9rqqw7

The numbers of church-going catholics in the UK is at 1 million. In 20 years, it will be counted in hundreds of thousands for the first time. I would like to hear your thoughts on what the shape will be of the catholic church in 20 years time, considering a huge number of congregations will die off and also that young believers are leaving to evangelicalism.

best regards
 
I am a young believer who converted at 24 from Baptist/Evangelical roots. I know that the church will survive anything, God has told us that the gates of hell shall prevail against Her. I DO believe, however, that our children and our adult Church members need to be MUCH better catechized. Mine was awful to be honest. Wonderful man, very strong in his faith, but gave a very poor catechesis. I think that if more people knew (or understood) what the Church has to offer they would not leave or they would be able to give better witness to the truth of the Catholic Faith.

With love,

FSC
 
I think the charismatic and traditionalist movements will save our Church. It seems to me that young people often want to be a part of something on the extreme side of things to feel out where they belong and find an identity. That is why our universal church is so wonderful. Anyone can find their place. I am 23 and love both the TLM and the charismatic movement. We just need to get rid of the wishy washy heretics that took things over during my parents’ generation. I prefer attending mass in a beautiful church rather than a building that looks like a garage.
 
Hi guys,

Your individual experiences are interesting - I can see what draws you to the ceremony of it all. However, starting from your individual experiences and moving to demographics globally - the Church has an enormous problem.
  1. The vast majority of congregations are quite elderly. In Ireland its estimated many will not survive ~15 years, simply because the congregation will “die off”. The young are simply not there.
  2. The subsequent generation (ie you guys both sound you belong here ! ) have not joined in numbers anywhere near their grandparents. The majority have become non-believers or joined evangelical churches.
These two drivers are going to come into effect in around 10-20 years and the effect will be massive, especially in Western Europe. For example, the number of catholics in the UK will be counted in *hundreds of **thousands * for the first time. This will have an enormous effect. A Church with millions of attendees is quite a different, and more influential organisation than one with say 600,000. The influence the UK Church will have on government policy will be questioned. It will also be asked why such a small organisation should run schools? The Church will have to defend why it should hold any influence whatsoever, seen as such a small percentage of the country use it.

This is going to happen. I appreciate that there are many movements in the Church to bring young people back. However, they are simply no where near the numbers required.

So, your individual experiences are interesting, but within your generation you will be highly unusual, as a percentage. Thats an enormous problem. Especially if you want to influence government policy.

I’m a non-believer - however I find the progression and evolution of belief incredibly interesting, especially what motivates people to believe certain things are true.

all the best
 
Straggleway is right that it seems clear the proprortion of younger people who belong to churches and attend is significantly lower than historical figures. We then need to address the question of what the Church will look like based on who will be its next corps of leaders in both clergy and laity.

Clearly, there is a conservative/traditional boom; progressive publications constantly lament the fact that we are rapidly becoming the Church. This is why continue to claim crises like a priest shortage in order to get their agenda through now since their window will be latched shut in a matter of ten years.

The problem I have with the reporting statistics is that each group reports differently. Not to sound uncharitable, but I simply do not trust Evangelical reporting methods. Depending on the particular faith community, joining might entail no more than attending one service.

Yet for us Catholics, to be considered truly active, you must attend mass every Sunday and several Holy Days throughout the year. Becoming Catholic usually takes close to a year; in many cases several. (Note: If you were to die during conversion in RCIA, it is my understanding that you can receive burial rites).

The article cuts to the heart of a matter that truly saddens and disturbs Catholics: Evangelicals going into countries for the purpose of converting Catholics. Not only is that contrary to ecumenical agreements, it is a grave rebellion that places the guidence of men above that of God’s own Church in a very clear manner.

I seriously question the motives of at least a handful of Evangelical groups that do this.

Interestingly enough, Russia effectively banned this practice. And the funny thing is that the New York Times cast the issue as “Russian Orthodox evil, Evangelicals wonderful.” Now why in the world would an extremely liberal publication possibly snap around and praise Evangelicals, I ask…
 
FidesSpesCarita said:
I am a young believer who converted at 24 from Baptist/Evangelical roots. I know that the church will survive anything, God has told us that the gates of hell shall prevail against Her. I DO believe, however, that our children and our adult Church members need to be MUCH better catechized. Mine was awful to be honest. Wonderful man, very strong in his faith, but gave a very poor catechesis. I think that if more people knew (or understood) what the Church has to offer they would not leave or they would be able to give better witness to the truth of the Catholic Faith.

With love,

FSC
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agree with you. just yesterday i heard fr. Corapi saying that we must study our faith, the teachings of the Church. if we dont do this, we are in danger, the Church is in danger, and the world is in danger.
 
kib said:
I think the charismatic and traditionalist movements will save our Church. It seems to me that young people often want to be a part of something on the extreme side of things to feel out where they belong and find an identity. That is why our universal church is so wonderful. Anyone can find their place. I am 23 and love both the TLM and the charismatic movement. We just need to get rid of the wishy washy heretics that took things over during my parents’ generation. I prefer attending mass in a beautiful church rather than a building that looks like a garage.
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I agree. I also think the Ordinary Form as it is commonly offered, is, in a way, the “worst of both worlds” - it lacks the majesty and tradition of the Extraordinary form, but it lacks the energy and excitement of the Charismatic movement, which is probably why you see most of the younger people at one or the other.
 
It is interesting that the conservative elements of the Church are booming. Certainly with Benedict as a leader, the conservative issue will certainly be led.

However, I’m interested in how influential the Church will be. My parents are believers - I’m not. I’ve discussed this with them and they hadn’t considered it and are still working out their answer!

The situation they face is that in say 10 years, the catholic church in the Uk will number in the hundreds of thousands. The implications for this are going to be enormous. Why should any government listen to a church with only that many believers? The numbers are comparable in other countries across Western Europe. Its a difficult question.

I can only see a gradual decay of influence on policy for Rome.
 
straggleyway said:
The situation they face is that in say 10 years, the catholic church in the Uk will number in the hundreds of thousands.
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You keep repeating this as if it were truth. It’s a predicition.

It’s not too late for that to be invalidated. But if you go around saying “DOOM DOOM DOOM!” you will cause others to believe it, and to despair.
 
There are several things to consider here. In the past many people were Catholic by virtue of their family or ethnicity, that may still be true for some but by and large I think younger people are becoming Catholic by choice, they now have many choices out there, so if they do choose to become (or stay) Catholic they are more likely to be stronger in their faith. Especially since it is harder to become a Catholic as opposed to an Evangelical.

So we may end up with a smaller church but perhaps a stronger one. I feel that the Evangelical churches place less demands on a person and therefore can be attractive to people but for the same reason they can just as easily leave for something else.

Also in terms of influence, the Church may be smaller but it is one Church with one voice (the Holy Father), whereas the Evangelicals are a collection of independent groups, essentially each parish has its own Pope so to speak.

Jon
 
I find this thread quite intresting, because there seems to be a very healthy mix at the parish that I attend. There are quite a bit of older folks, but there are also quite a bit of younger families that attend. Perhaps its because it is the only Catholic church in town, or perhaps it is a very lively parish with many activites going on.
 
straggleyway said:
It is interesting that the conservative elements of the Church are booming. Certainly with Benedict as a leader, the conservative issue will certainly be led.

However, I’m interested in how influential the Church will be. My parents are believers - I’m not. I’ve discussed this with them and they hadn’t considered it and are still working out their answer!

The situation they face is that in say 10 years, the catholic church in the Uk will number in the hundreds of thousands. The implications for this are going to be enormous. Why should any government listen to a church with only that many believers? The numbers are comparable in other countries across Western Europe. Its a difficult question.

I can only see a gradual decay of influence on policy for Rome.
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I disagree. just look at the history of the Church and you will see it. we need quality and not quantity, a few good men, and the Church will show the power of God again and again.
 
Aramis,

You say… “But if you go around saying “DOOM DOOM DOOM!” you will cause others to believe it, and to despair.”

My prediction is based on demographics. If you look at the UK census over the last decades, it shows religious numbers (both Catholic and COE) decreasing at a steady rate. This can be applied over the last 80 years or so. The catholic church in 1901, 1941 and today are very different beasts.

So as you say, it is a prediction - but one that is backed up by a steady datastream over a long timescale. For my prediction to be held void, a steady demographic change that has occurred throughout the 20th century has to be undone - and,importantly, *rapidly *.

The problem is, it is a given principle of forecasting that large scale economic or demographic change, hardly ever happens very fast. If you read the newspapers, this is what we get all the time - big dramatic events are always going to happen tomorrow. Well, they wont. For example, Feminism was not an overnight success - it began in the early 1900s and still progresses today.

So, Aramis - I am making a prediction, but I dont believe it is one of “doom”. I believe over the next decades the “powerbase” of the Church will change away from Western Europe towards South America, Africa and Asia, where the majority of believers will be.

This is not doom. But it is serious for anyone that expects the Catholic Church to have any impact on government policy in Europe. It wont.

Instead it appears that the Church in Europe is going to become a much more conservative, far older (on average) organisation.
 
straggleyway said:
The situation they face is that in say 10 years, the catholic church in the Uk will number in the hundreds of thousands. The implications for this are going to be enormous. Why should any government listen to a church with only that many believers? The numbers are comparable in other countries across Western Europe. Its a difficult question.

I can only see a gradual decay of influence on policy for Rome.
Click to expand...
I believe there was an article published about 6 months to a year ago discussing how in the UK, practicing Catholics outnumbered practicing Anglicans / Church of England members for the first time since the Reformation (both due to dwindling numbers but a much slower dwindling among Catholics), which suggests that this trend is happening among Protestants in the UK as well.

The implications of the decline of Anglicanism in the UK, and the implications of Catholicism overtaking Anglicanism as the largest practicing Christian denomination in the UK are both profound as well.
 
Rolltide,

You are certainly correct. Catholic numbers have steadily overtaken the CoE. Moreover, it is likely for this to continue as conservative elements leave the CoE as they are unable to accept women priests or the gay community with the Church.

However, irrespective of which church, RC or CoE is “in the lead”, the problem of demographics affects them both. Both Churches have far, far more believers in the elderly age bracket. And the ratio of non-believers to believers is increasing radically. Therefore, even though the RC church may be more numerous than the CoE, both churches are likely to be less influential in 20 years time. Even though the RC will become more conservative it will have to tread lightly on policy issues

The recent visit of Benedict to the Czech Republic is a great example of this. When the Pope made his visit, he was very aware that numbers in the Czech RC church have experienced an extraordinary decline. He, wisely, modified his behaviour accordingly and was careful if what he said. Heres a report from the BBC.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8280065.stm

One sentence stands out above the rest…

“What we were seeing was the new slimmed-down Czech church, a small but well-organised minority of believers coexisting within a much larger community of agnostics and atheists in a country that, to a large extent, no longer believes in God.”

This is the future of the Church in Europe.
 
straggleyway said:
This is the future of the Church in Europe.
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No, it is only the probable future of the Church in Europe.

Many things can happen. It’s almost as likely that an islamist jihad sweeps England and turns it to a third world country. After all, that’s been predicted by several imams as well as several political pundits with multiple relevant degrees.
 
straggleyway said:
The situation they face is that in say 10 years, the catholic church in the Uk will number in the hundreds of thousands. The implications for this are going to be enormous. Why should any government listen to a church with only that many believers? The numbers are comparable in other countries across Western Europe. Its a difficult question.

I can only see a gradual decay of influence on policy for Rome.
Click to expand...
Rome has influence on #10 Downing Street? I thought King Henry VIII put a stop to that?

The EU has bigger problems to worry about over Catholic versus Evangelical influence. At current demographics in forty years there will be a religion with influence and probably control - Islam (birth rate over five children per family and mass immigration).

Pope Paul VI saw this trend coming and wrote Humanae Vitae. The invention of the birth control pill is directly responsible for our current below sustainable rates. The Church is against artificial contraception, abortion, cloning not only because they are contrary to God’s laws but also because they are leading us into ruin. Technology, moral relativism, secularization, and liberalism have us set up to be conquered.
 
Aramis,

You say…

"No, it is only the probable future of the Church in Europe.

Many things can happen. It’s almost as likely that an islamist jihad sweeps England and turns it to a third world country. After all, that’s been predicted by several imams as well as several political pundits with multiple relevant degrees."

Yes I agree all predictions come with a defined probability, however your second statement that an islamist jihad sweeps England is **almost ** as likely is quite wrong. First of all you need to back that up with evidence - ie population figures. Just because punits have a degree is not a reason to believe a prediction. The numbers of Muslims in England are in fact quite low. The vast majority have no religion.

My prediction is based on many decades of gradual decline. It is a given principle that if demographic change happens over many decades at a constant rate it will take something overwhelming to reverse it. I am not saying your Church will disappear - just that it will become far smaller, and probably more conservative.

Furthermore, in one way you can see my prediction has already taken place. The visit of the Pope to the Czech Republic showed how he can **change his behaviour **within a secular, non-religious world.

Ockham,
you say
“Rome has influence on #10 Downing Street? I thought King Henry VIII put a stop to that?”

Well the Church does try to have influence. In recent, equality legislation - the Church attempted to exclude itself from discrimination on the gay community. It raised its voice into the media and was given a lot of press coverage. If Number 10 listens, I dont know. But my prediction is that, as the number decrease even further, it will be questioned why the opinion of a bishop even makes it into the news?
 
Your example is one of the state threatening the freedom of a religion, not the other way around. The gay community gets far more press then its size deserves. If the state and its people actually did listen to this particular religion there wouldn’t be an impending crisis in demographics. If most Moslems aren’t religious then why are mosques sprouting up all over the country?
 
Several redundant churches in Glasgow and other parts of Scotland are slowly being converted into mosques as Christian congregations dwindle while a growing Muslim population demands more places to worship. Colin Randall, foreign correspondent, reports

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Back to your original inquiry, my theory is the “spirit of Vatican II” spirituality with its de-emphasis on traditional Church teachings has run its course. The results speak for themselves. As you have pointed out we are a church in decline. The good news is that today’s youth aren’t tempted by the same lures that previous ones fell to.
 
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