Young Earth v. Old Earth

[BRB]

The Earth is old and mankind compared to other species are young. We are created in God’s image.

Hurray for Manny … the scientists haven’t brainwashed him

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hurray for Manny … the scientists haven’t brainwashed him

I’m a cradle Catholic, an amateur Catholic Apologist for two years, amateur astronomer. In fact the early astronomers were Catholic clergy and the founder of the Big Bang is a Catholic. I have an audiobook called How the Catholic Church build the Western Civilization written by a Catholic professor. After hearing that, I realized we ought our debt to the Catholic Church… even the scholastic university had its basis from the Church…

give a credit to the scientist.

Nicolaus Copernicus is a Catholic deacon amd Galileo before he died restored his relationship with the Church.

 

[mapleoak]

Lucy from my own belief is not my ancestor. She is another species and not homo-sapien.

Adam is the first homo-sapien. From what I believe, I do not know believe we evolved. I do think what we found in the fossil record are other species of animals, which are link to related but a separate species all their own.

Who said anything that I believe in Evolution? I just don’t believe that the Earth is 6,000 yrs old. I believe the Earth to be billions years old.

The Earth is old and mankind compared to other species are young. We are created in God’s image.

 

[hecd2]

Unless I’m misunderstanding something, Alec, this doesn’t seem to be talking about the effect of group velocity, but “possibly” the velocity of the photon itself.

islamonline.net/english/Science/2000/3/article1.shtml

**Previous experiments elsewhere raised doubts as to whether the exiting particle of light (photon) was the same light that entered but to some distortion. **

**However, with the NEC experiment, the exiting laser pulse maintained the same shape as when it entered the chamber. **

**The photon can leave the chamber before it has finished entering because the cesium atoms charge the properties of the photon, allowing it to exit more quickly than if it took place in a vacuum. **

I think you are misunderstanding something, but that’s probably not your fault. Islamonline.net is not the place to look for insights into physics. This particular article is complete gibberish from start to finish, completely misunderstands the experiment, claims that it tests the Theory of Relativity and refers to absurdities such as changing the properties of the photon and refers to nonsensical concepts such as the photon’s leading edge. The last five paragraphs of the article beggar belief.

The researcher stated:

**“Our experiment does show that the generally held misconception that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light is wrong,” said Lijun Wang. **

Why would he have said this if the result is due to simply the result of group velocity, since group velocity is mearly an apparence and is not truly the result of photons travelling above the speed of light?

Andre

I don’t suppose you’ve read the research paper? Why don’t you read my article discussing the paper, and (accurately ) describing the experiment, particularly the section entitled “The Underlying Science” which you can find here:
evolutionpages.com/Critique%20of%20Humphreys%20article.htm

I repeat, this effect is nothing to do with relativity, nothing to do with photons travelling faster than the speed of light, and is consistent with classical wave theory. The only thing that is unusual is the creation of a medium with anomalous dispersion and low loss.

Let me quote you from the research paper itself:

‘Here we use gain-assisted linear anomalous dispersion to demonstrate superluminal light propagation in atomic caesium gas. The group velocity of a laser pulse in this region exceeds *c *and can even become negative.’

‘The observed superluminal light pulse propagation is not at odds with causality, being a direct consequence of classical interference between its different frequency components in an anomalous dispersion region’

‘We emphasize that the observed superluminal light propagation is a result of the wave nature of light. It can be understood by the classical theory of wave propagation in an anomalous dispersion region where interference between different frequency components produces this rather counterintuitive effect. Finally, we note that the observed superluminal light pulse propagation is not at odds with causality or special relativity’

It is as I said.

Alec
evolutionpages.com

 

[The_Barbarian]

Fossil bones don’t tell the whole answer. Remember Piltdown Man hoax ? Fooled the scientists for 40 years.

We don’t actually know who did it, but we do know scientists debunked it. If you’ll look at books on human ancestry at the time, you’ll see little mention of Piltdown man, mostly because it was sort of an embarrassment; it showed exactly the opposite of the predictions evolutionary theory made.

And … Lucy is not all she is cracked up to be.

What do you think she’s “cracked up to be?” Most people don’t know very much about it, and fill in the gaps with suppositions.

Was Adam a caveman ? A Neanderthal ?

Would you be offended if God gave souls to more primitive men?

Did original sin just ‘evolve’ in a cunning monkey who oneday learned to walk on 2 legs. Animals are not humans … and will never evolve into them.

You think that’s what evolutionary theory says? No wonder you hate science. You don’t know what it is.

It may be an old earth … but, mankind is very young, and created in image of God.

“Very young” being a few million years. And if you’re a Catholic, you should know that the image of God is not a physical resemblance. God has no body, being a spirit.

 

[Mannyfit75]

“Very young” being a few million years. And if you’re a Catholic, you should know that the image of God is not a physical resemblance. God has no body, being a spirit.

Truth statement, but in salvation history. God became incarnate. Word became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity. The Eternal Word of God. The Word becoming flesh and dwell amongst us.

God is eternal, God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Three Persons but One God.

 

[BRB]

give a credit to the scientist.

.

Yeah … to the Catholic scientists. They can be objective — using ‘faith & reason’ to find the real answers to the earthly questions ---- flat vs round, old vs new, etc

 

[BRB]

And if you’re a Catholic, you should know that the image of God is not a physical resemblance. God has no body, being a spirit.

Do we really know ?

God the Father has not been seen … so the Jews say.

Who did Moses see ? Christ

Did not John claim both Christ & God had a physical image … in the Revelations ?

 

[BRB]

Would you be offended if God gave souls to more primitive men?

You think that’s what evolutionary theory says? No wonder you hate science. You don’t know what it is.

".

Aren’t we all rather primitive in our reasoning / understanding ?

We should feel grateful to the creator … not offended.

Evenso, Genesis presents man as an enlightened, worthy creation … not a ‘cave man’.

 

[mich2]

I think you are misunderstanding something, but that’s probably not your fault. Islamonline.net is not the place to look for insights into physics. This particular article is complete gibberish from start to finish, completely misunderstands the experiment, claims that it tests the Theory of Relativity and refers to absurdities such as changing the properties of the photon and refers to nonsensical concepts such as the photon’s leading edge. The last five paragraphs of the article beggar belief.

I don’t suppose you’ve read the research paper? Why don’t you read my article discussing the paper, and (accurately ) describing the experiment, particularly the section entitled “The Underlying Science” which you can find here:
evolutionpages.com/Critique%20of%20Humphreys%20article.htm

I repeat, this effect is nothing to do with relativity, nothing to do with photons travelling faster than the speed of light, and is consistent with classical wave theory. The only thing that is unusual is the creation of a medium with anomalous dispersion and low loss.

Let me quote you from the research paper itself:

‘Here we use gain-assisted linear anomalous dispersion to demonstrate superluminal light propagation in atomic caesium gas. The group velocity of a laser pulse in this region exceeds *c *and can even become negative.’

‘The observed superluminal light pulse propagation is not at odds with causality, being a direct consequence of classical interference between its different frequency components in an anomalous dispersion region’

‘We emphasize that the observed superluminal light propagation is a result of the wave nature of light. It can be understood by the classical theory of wave propagation in an anomalous dispersion region where interference between different frequency components produces this rather counterintuitive effect. Finally, we note that the observed superluminal light pulse propagation is not at odds with causality or special relativity’

It is as I said.

Alec
evolutionpages.com

Ok. Thanks, Alec. I read the article through.

Andre

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

The Gap theory holds that there is a indefinite peroid of time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. This theory satifies both six day creation, and old earth.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Aren’t we all rather primitive in our reasoning / understanding ?

Right. Mostly in our impulses; we retain the reptilian lower brain, which is overlain by higher functions, some of which permit rational thought. The problem is, in a crisis, the lower centers tend to be activated first.

We should feel grateful to the creator … not offended.

Indeed. All glory and praise to Him, who made us.

Evenso, Genesis presents man as an enlightened, worthy creation … not a ‘cave man’.

I suspect that Homo erectus, even if he wasn’t quite as smart as we are, was just as noble and loving, as cruel and selfish as we are. Maybe not, but we have no reason to think not. It is very unlikely that H. neandertalis was inferior to us in any spiritual way.

And I imagine that to God, there isn’t enough difference between the three species to make a difference.

 

[jcrichton]

No. Scientists are saying that the Fine Structure Constant (which includes the speed of light) has been constant for at least the last 10 billion years and probably the last 12 billion years.

For the origin of the universe, there are a number of hypotheses, one of which is String Theory. For a non-mathematical introduction to String Theory see: The Myth of the Beginning of Time.

For the origin of the planet earth the standard explanation is an Accretion Disc.

rossum

…perhaps I am too pedestrian… my question should have been, how does the constancy of the speed of light determines the age of the earth?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi jchrichton!

Yes, thank you, that does clarify things a bit.

So, to repeat then if I have it right: God told Moses on Sinai to keep the sabbath on the seventh day on which He rested, which did not imply that the universe was created in six literal days, but was in reference to a metaphorical or other understanding of how God created the universe in six stages, which are openly interpreted, and that this creation week is perhaps then symbolically marked by the instituted sabbath (in perhaps the same manner that… I don’t know… people observe a minute of silence on Nov. 11th in the British Commonwealth to mark the end of the first world war, even if that war technically took four years, that is it is a symbolic marking of time to remember something that lasted longer than the amount of time it is remembered by).

If I’ve gotten that right, I would say I would agree that does seem like a possible interpretation.

Although I still think a literal six-day week is still possible as well from a scriptural point of view. God is outside time, but that does mean that the six-days in creation, would not have appeared as six-literals days if we had been there (if as you suggest time is simply our own perception that is.)

Radiological dating may suggest that there are rocks on this earth that are 4.6 billion years old. Carbon dating may suggest that life has been on this earth for at least 50,000 years. And archaeological and historical records may suggest the existence of civilization before Adam and Eve supposedly walked the Earth in Genesis. Although as is wisely pointed out, people have been wrong about the facts before (blood-letting for instance), and one should not think that any of these facts are beyond questioning or doubt (it also tends to make better scholarship when we question, and seek further).

In my view, anyone who claims a scientific fact (and even moreso a historical fact) is beyond question, does not understand the nature of scientific facts. The entire method is based on trying to disprove what is thought to be true.

God Bless,

Hi, D M!

I am suggesting that it does not necessarily has to be a 6-24-hour-day period; that God did not become exhausted from Creation but instituted a, as you say, symbolic “Rest Period.” Yet, this “rest” is not merely symbolic as He would incorporated it into the system of worship which He will demand of the Hebrew people.

And you are correct… I mean to say that the Sabbath is not referencing a 24-hour-6-day-Creation period; rather, that “rest” is both symbolic of the final cycle of the active Creation (bringing into existence that which did not yet existed) and the final “Rest” to which Christians are called: Union with Yahweh God! (Paul speaks of it a little bit in Hebrews 4:1-11.)

I agree with you that it could well be as described by Scriptures (six-twenty-four-hour days); God is Spirit; He Created all that exists by His Will (Power/Energy…); who is to say they have conclusive proof of anything that happened before Creation, at the moment of Creation, or afterwards? We have several insights into God’s Way: Eternal, Immutable, Beginning and End, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent… and He can compress time or expand it exponentially… Could Yahweh God not have Created the enigmas that science attempts to explain as “big bang,” “evolution” or “emersion?” Could these enigmas not have been a product of Creation itself?

Isn’t it funny how some are quick to point-out the similarities that we have with other species (say primates) while ignoring that though all other species existed prior to us none of them have been able to pose theories, hypothesis, or any natural laws? We have the huge advantage of being Created in the image and likeness of the Creator: Omnipotence and Omniscience are part of our rudimentary composition! Yet, because we are not as He is our abilities are hindered and we cannot bend time and space, except in science fiction.

I love Romans 1:19-20, it is a wonderful example that shows us how Yahweh God has revealed Himself to us through nature (the study of which we call science), so that all can find Him there staring into our hearts and minds!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

It is entirely possible that the universe was created in a state of existence and then set into motion. It is entirely reasonable to believe that when God said “Be light made. And light was made” that He created not only the sources of light from which light had to first travel from (by the way that source of light would appear to have been around in order to exist), but also the light itself already in the path of travel. Why would that be deception?
Note that an inherent property of matter is to appear to have already existed.

Hi, mapleoak!

…I concur… and add: the Crucifixion: all sins forgiven, at once, past, present, and future!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

So science and Revelation are in exactly the same position relative to absolute knowledge.

Hi, rossum!

…rather I would say that of science and interpretation of Revelation.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I am no expert for sure but I think the best record of evolution would be to follow the fossil records of the horse. We have fossils form each stage and in bewteen stages of size increasing and their feet going from many toes to just one hoof.

It always amaze me why people can except things adapting to their changing climates and enviroments but they refuse to believe in evolution. They are the exact same thing except one takes longer.

Best example I can give is the polar bear. It is nothing more than a brown bear except the shape of the head is made a little differant. Yes we can say the polar bear is larger but that comes from its diet more than anything else.

Hi, brierpatch!

I think that the problem is that the premise of evolution (no God involved) determines that change occurs through natural adaptation where nature causes the various alterations in order to produce the species that are most likely to succeed. Yet, time and again we find many flaws in this premise… using your example, why are there so many variations in the apex of the equine species (1/4 horse, ponies, etc.)? …then there’s the bear… why travel to a desert of ice and snow where there’s nothing but ice and snow? Then there’s the big to tiny theory… what happened, did the elephants, whales, gorillas… didn’t get the memo? …and of all creatures, why are pigs more similar to us in their internal structure?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[The_Barbarian]

I think that the problem is that the premise of evolution (no God involved)

Actually, the problem is that you think that is a premise of evolution. Please go learn what it’s actually about; it will save you a lot of frustration.

determines that change occurs through natural adaptation where nature causes the various alterations in order to produce the species that are most likely to succeed. Yet, time and again we find many flaws in this premise…

Different premise. That one is natural selection. And I’m sure everyone would like to see the flaws.

using your example, why are there so many variations in the apex of the equine species (1/4 horse, ponies, etc.)?

Different selective pressures. Humans are really good at doing that. But notice that in the wild, horses are remarkably alike. Not a lot of difference in Equus.

…then there’s the bear… why travel to a desert of ice and snow where there’s nothing but ice and snow?

Food to be had. Seals are pretty good prey. And the evidence is that they evolved during the last glaciation, which would favor such adaptations.

Then there’s the big to tiny theory… what happened, did the elephants, whales, gorillas… didn’t get the memo?

Some did. For example, elephants tend to become dwarfed on islands. There are several examples of that. And some of the family, such as Hyraxes, got smaller and filled a different niche. Whales tend to be large because the environment favors larger animals with better heat retention. Selective pressures sometimes favor size, sometimes favor smaller sizes. Depends on the environment.

…and of all creatures, why are pigs more similar to us in their internal structure?

They aren’t. Chimps are far more like us than pigs.

 

[jcrichton]

Then pick a different example - eating pork or compulsory male circumcision have both changed since those parts of Revelation were originally written.

Hi rossum!

Here you are talking about a change in worship; both cases were actualized in the Old Testament and both were riscinded in the New Testament: “I came not to abolish the Law but to give it fulfillment.”

While in the Old Testament these were phisical demands demonstrative of Israel’s obedience to Yahweh God; in the New Testament we are Taught that He desires mercy rather than sacrifice and knowledge (obedience) of God more than holocausts (Love Yahweh God above all and your neighbor as yourself = summation of the Law).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Horses became extinct in the Americas and were re-introduced by europeans.

Peace

Tim

Hi, Tim!

How did that happen? Why did the same phenomenon not happen to all the horses all over the world?

Maran atha!

Angel