Young Earth v. Old Earth

[SFTor]

…‘change your way of thinking or others will call you names and think that you are not a sensient being…’ or some other seemingly intelligent articulation as such comes only from an elite position. You call Darwin Darwin not some old ancient man, why do you suppose you cannot call the Bible the Bible?

Till science can produce a living complex creature, out of nothing, no amount of theorizing can validate your claims.

Do I believe everything that everyone is saying about what they believe the Holy Scriptures are revealing to them? No. But 8+ billion dollars to create a collider to demonstrate that life “emerged” does sounds as though some scientists are reaching in an effort to prove what they hold, though unsustantiated as yet, as evident: evilution not Yahweh God is the origin of life.

Though you include a clause that seems to mean that you truly do not mean to offend… is that not the same as the guy who uses up the girl and then calls it off with “it’s not you, it’s me…?”

Maran atha!

Angel

Hello Angel:

The supercollider was not built to show how life might have emerged. It was built to re-create the conditions within the first minutes of the Big Bang. Its purpose is to study the subatomic particles that existed in that environment. It has nothing to do with life.

Nobody says that Yahweh The Lord God is not the creator of all life. Science couldn’t care less. What science is trying to do is examine how it actually happened in physical terms here on the planet. Maybe Yahweh was behind it all, maybe not. Science will never give you an answer to that.

What science will never do is bring Yahweh into the equation. There is no place for Yahweh or any other god in the research that is being done.

Best,

Tor

 

[rossum]

If we have the wrong interpretation of Sacred Scripture then the Holy Spirit (the guardian of truth) has failed us.

In the case of evolution the Catholic Church has not pronounded definitely one way or the other, otherwise there would not be these discussions among Catholics as to exactly what the position of the Church is. Of course it is theoretically possible that the Church has pronounced, but we have misunderstood the pronouncement but I do not think that this is the case on evolution.

By ourselves we can never find the complete truth. We are limited and can only see what we are allowed to see. That is why Revelation is a reliable guide, information we would never be able to find on our own.

However we do not even have the complete and uncontaminated revelation - we no longer know what the correct ending of the Gospel of Mark is for instance. The copies we have now are not the originals and have suffered some errors in transmission.

rossum

 

[reggieM]

Of course it is theoretically possible that the Church has pronounced, but we have misunderstood the pronouncement but I do not think that this is the case on evolution.

Pope Pius XII has made some official statements regarding evolution. Catholic are free to argue against Darwinian theory. But Catholics are not free to argue against all forms of Intelligent Design theory of Creationism – we have to accept those to some extent.

However we do not even have the complete and uncontaminated revelation - we no longer know what the correct ending of the Gospel of Mark is for instance. The copies we have now are not the originals and have suffered some errors in transmission.

Catholics do not rely on the written word for the transmission of the Gospel. We rely on the witness and testimony of the teaching Church – which has transmitted the Gospel through the community which pre-existed the written texts.

 

[buffalo]

In the case of evolution the Catholic Church has not pronounded definitely one way or the other, otherwise there would not be these discussions among Catholics as to exactly what the position of the Church is. Of course it is theoretically possible that the Church has pronounced, but we have misunderstood the pronouncement but I do not think that this is the case on evolution.

However we do not even have the complete and uncontaminated revelation - we no longer know what the correct ending of the Gospel of Mark is for instance. The copies we have now are not the originals and have suffered some errors in transmission.

rossum

Next year they will be having a workshop (STOQ). It will be interesting to see what comes of this. Not invited - the extremes of both sides of the debate.

The head of it made an interesting statement - the catechism does not have a single entry on evolution for Catholics to reference. Also, the debate in the US is lacking a truly Catholic perspective.

 

[rossum]

Next year they will be having a workshop (STOQ). It will be interesting to see what comes of this. Not invited - the extremes of both sides of the debate.

The head of it made an interesting statement - the catechism does not have a single entry on evolution for Catholics to reference. Also, the debate in the US is lacking a truly Catholic perspective.

Yes, I noticed that. It is an interesting approach. I suspect that excluding the two extremes may well result in a more fruitful debate than we tend to get here, where sometimes the extremes can distract from points of agreement in the middle.

I will be interested to see the results.

rossum

 

[jcrichton]

Hello Angel:

The supercollider was not built to show how life might have emerged. It was built to re-create the conditions within the first minutes of the Big Bang. Its purpose is to study the subatomic particles that existed in that environment. It has nothing to do with life.

Nobody says that Yahweh The Lord God is not the creator of all life. Science couldn’t care less. What science is trying to do is examine how it actually happened in physical terms here on the planet. Maybe Yahweh was behind it all, maybe not. Science will never give you an answer to that.

What science will never do is bring Yahweh into the equation. There is no place for Yahweh or any other god in the research that is being done.

Best,

Tor

Hi!

…you do not see the flaw do you?

…“life might have emerged,” "…“recreate the conditions within the first minutes,” "…“particles that existed in that environment.”

These are all theories! There’s no exact factor involved! It’s like the city/highway milage per gallon purported by the auto industry: no matter how they test their vehicles they cannot account for every variant that actual drivers will experience; hence, they must factor in only what they perceive as some possibilities and present their findings as “estimated mpg.”

When science uses theorized factors and presents its findings as exact proof… we’ve just passed the worm-holes and hit smack into a whole bunch of black-holes!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[SFTor]

Hi!

…you do not see the flaw do you?

…“life might have emerged,” "…“recreate the conditions within the first minutes,” "…“particles that existed in that environment.”

These are all theories! There’s no exact factor involved! It’s like the city/highway milage per gallon purported by the auto industry: no matter how they test their vehicles they cannot account for every variant that actual drivers will experience; hence, they must factor in only what they perceive as some possibilities and present their findings as “estimated mpg.”

When science uses theorized factors and presents its findings as exact proof… we’ve just passed the worm-holes and hit smack into a whole bunch of black-holes!

Maran atha!

Angel

Angel,

that made no sense at all. Whether you believe it or not there is method to the scientific process. The one thing they are not going to give you is “proof.” If you see any statement from a scientist to that effect you should run in the opposite direction.

I am sorry they can’t give you the “exact factor” you crave, but then again no one ever promised you that.

The only thing that would seem to satisfy you is if a scientist stood up and said “God did it!” They’re not going to do that.

Best,

Tor

 

[D_M]

…all I can tell you is that there are two distinct planes of existence: corporeal and spiritual.

Though Yahweh God warns Adam and Eve of imminent death should they eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge we know that the physical death did not happen until hundreds of years after the Fall. Sin is the corruption that entered into our spiritual existence due to Adam’s and Eve’s disobedience. The curse placed on them and on the planet could well have been meant that nature (corporeal) would suffer through an intensified burden rather than its originally intended course of Creation.

How does this manifest itself in the physical realm? I can only speculate (no science background) but it seems to me that more and more the planet is suffering greater tormoil through natural catastrophes and man-made disasters; conversely, pain and suffering in nature could have been intensified by the curse brough about by Adam’s and Eve’s Sin.

Maran atha!

Angel

Hi,

now there’s an interesting thought, that the physical world becomes worse as sin increases in the world.

I’ve had a thought recently about how one could be able to incorporate evolution:

What if when Adam was born and being the first to possess an immortal soul made in God’s image, unlike any of his supposed primate ancestors, that along with this he also at first did not experience any of the animal suffering that they did and would not have experienced toil or physical death… until he sinned and was lowered back to their level…?

This would work to me in incorporating evolution, but if we taught that Adam would have suffered physical death, suffering or toil without having sinned but as a result of evolution, than I think it would then contradict our understanding of the fall.

What do you think?

God Bless,

 

[reggieM]

This would work to me in incorporating evolution, but if we taught that Adam would have suffered physical death, suffering or toil without having sinned but as a result of evolution, than I think it would then contradict our understanding of the fall.

What do you think?

I agree - that is correct.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Pope Pius XII has made some official statements regarding evolution. Catholic are free to argue against Darwinian theory. But Catholics are not free to argue against all forms of Intelligent Design theory of Creationism – we have to accept those to some extent.

The Pope himself ruled out ID by observing the fact of common descent.

ID, remember, is a religion, one that is not consistent with Catholic doctrine. There are some forms of creationism that are not inconsistent with Catholic doctrine, but they are not consistent with the evidence cited by the Pope.

 

[jcrichton]

Angel,

that made no sense at all. Whether you believe it or not there is method to the scientific process. The one thing they are not going to give you is “proof.” If you see any statement from a scientist to that effect you should run in the opposite direction.

I am sorry they can’t give you the “exact factor” you crave, but then again no one ever promised you that.

The only thing that would seem to satisfy you is if a scientist stood up and said “God did it!” They’re not going to do that.

Best,

Tor

*Hi!

…which part did not make sense… the one where it is purported to simulate the condition just after the (theorized) big bang or the part where I do not believe that they can simulate something that has not been recorded?

…just look at how much we’ve missed from our own recorded history and how fast we come to misunderstandings… how can speculation be stated as a factual event?

My problem is not with science’s refusal to recognize Yahweh God as the Creator… my problem is with science, and those who advocate it, presenting its theories as factual events.

If science would present its theories as theories I would have no problems with it–yet, its presentations usually centers on “5 billion more years and the sun will cease to exist!..” or some other statement as such.

Maran atha!

Angel*

 

[jcrichton]

Hi,

now there’s an interesting thought, that the physical world becomes worse as sin increases in the world.

I’ve had a thought recently about how one could be able to incorporate evolution:

What if when Adam was born and being the first to possess an immortal soul made in God’s image, unlike any of his supposed primate ancestors, that along with this he also at first did not experience any of the animal suffering that they did and would not have experienced toil or physical death… until he sinned and was lowered back to their level…?

This would work to me in incorporating evolution, but if we taught that Adam would have suffered physical death, suffering or toil without having sinned but as a result of evolution, than I think it would then contradict our understanding of the fall.

What do you think?

God Bless,

*Hi!

…I’ve followed the Garden of Eden (Paradise) to the Apocalypse… where we find that the Tree of Life is at the center of the Holy City and its fruits are used for the healing of the nations… Adam being made of physical and spiritual matter (dust from the earth and the breath (Spirit) of life) could very well have been maintained and healed into infinity (immortality); yet, due to the Fall, he (along with his seed) lost that advantage…

…as for evolution… we know from Scriptures that Adam was created last… did Yahweh God produce a lake of ooze where life emerged and eventually morphed into the various creatures, including homosapiens, that populate our planet?.. I do not know… but have you seen animals giving birth on any of the nature programs?.. they need no drugs nor midwife… and they may suffer pain but this is counter with the joy of experiencing Life! …and even our domesticated animals know a thing or two about plants and minerals that can suppress or cure their illness–ever been disgusted by a dog who constantly licks its wounds or a child who obstinately eats clay? I suspect that the mechanism built-in takes charge and commands the person or animal to procure a cure (deep study could find that there was a chemical dificiency which the plant/mineral supplemented).

…one more theory… ever called in sick because you wanted the day off and after pretending to be ill you actually experienced some sort of disconfort which simulated a non-existing illness?

I believe that Yahweh God Created us with the built-in mechanisms that helps us cope with our environment and that the various eco-systems were meant to supply us with the various elementals that we need… we were forced to do without the Tree of Life and, due to our rush for intellect and power, we have severed or destroyed much of the Created connections to both God and nature.

Maran atha!

Angel*

 

[SFTor]

*Hi!

…I’ve followed the Garden of Eden (Paradise) to the Apocalypse… where we find that the Tree of Life is at the center of the Holy City and its fruits are used for the healing of the nations… Adam being made of physical and spiritual matter (dust from the earth and the breath (Spirit) of life) could very well have been maintained and healed into infinity (immortality); yet, due to the Fall, he (along with his seed) lost that advantage…

…as for evolution… we know from Scriptures that Adam was created last… did Yahweh God produce a lake of ooze where life emerged and eventually morphed into the various creatures, including homosapiens, that populate our planet?.. I do not know… but have you seen animals giving birth on any of the nature programs?.. they need no drugs nor midwife… and they may suffer pain but this is counter with the joy of experiencing Life! …and even our domesticated animals know a thing or two about plants and minerals that can suppress or cure their illness–ever been disgusted by a dog who constantly licks its wounds or a child who obstinately eats clay? I suspect that the mechanism built-in takes charge and commands the person or animal to procure a cure (deep study could find that there was a chemical dificiency which the plant/mineral supplemented).

…one more theory… ever called in sick because you wanted the day off and after pretending to be ill you actually experienced some sort of disconfort which simulated a non-existing illness?

I believe that Yahweh God Created us with the built-in mechanisms that helps us cope with our environment and that the various eco-systems were meant to supply us with the various elementals that we need… we were forced to do without the Tree of Life and, due to our rush for intellect and power, we have severed or destroyed much of the Created connections to both God and nature.

Maran atha!

Angel*

Hi Angel:

You believe this, you believe that. That is your business. Science is trying to get a handle on what actually happened. It’s a long and winding road, but worthwhile in and of itself.

I can tell you aren’t going to engage in the scientific debate, and that’s fine. Just don’t confuse the two please. It would make you seem ignorant about science, and presumptuous about your faith.

Best,

Tor

 

[edwest2]

The Pope himself ruled out ID by observing the fact of common descent.

ID, remember, is a religion, one that is not consistent with Catholic doctrine. There are some forms of creationism that are not inconsistent with Catholic doctrine, but they are not consistent with the evidence cited by the Pope.

Intelligent Design is not a religion. There is a political contrivance called ID but it is corrupt. The idea that creatures on earth were designed is affirmed by Cardinal Schoenborn in his article titled Finding Design in Nature. This is actual design.

Peace,
Ed

 

[D_M]

*Hi!

…I’ve followed the Garden of Eden (Paradise) to the Apocalypse… where we find that the Tree of Life is at the center of the Holy City and its fruits are used for the healing of the nations… Adam being made of physical and spiritual matter (dust from the earth and the breath (Spirit) of life) could very well have been maintained and healed into infinity (immortality); yet, due to the Fall, he (along with his seed) lost that advantage…

…as for evolution… we know from Scriptures that Adam was created last… did Yahweh God produce a lake of ooze where life emerged and eventually morphed into the various creatures, including homosapiens, that populate our planet?.. I do not know… but have you seen animals giving birth on any of the nature programs?.. they need no drugs nor midwife… and they may suffer pain but this is counter with the joy of experiencing Life! …and even our domesticated animals know a thing or two about plants and minerals that can suppress or cure their illness–ever been disgusted by a dog who constantly licks its wounds or a child who obstinately eats clay? I suspect that the mechanism built-in takes charge and commands the person or animal to procure a cure (deep study could find that there was a chemical dificiency which the plant/mineral supplemented).

…one more theory… ever called in sick because you wanted the day off and after pretending to be ill you actually experienced some sort of disconfort which simulated a non-existing illness?

I believe that Yahweh God Created us with the built-in mechanisms that helps us cope with our environment and that the various eco-systems were meant to supply us with the various elementals that we need… we were forced to do without the Tree of Life and, due to our rush for intellect and power, we have severed or destroyed much of the Created connections to both God and nature.

Maran atha!

Angel*

Hi,

What I think I understand from you’re saying is that God gave us the means to survive in perfect perpetual felicity prior to the fall, but once we were removed from the garden we lost such.

I’ve come to be convinced that the garden narrative could be both literal and symbolic at the same time, and I think that the tree of life could be both representative of God’s sustenance of us through whatever ways (eg. built in mechanisms) as well as perhaps also a literal tree.

St Augustine wrote about the fall and man’s state before he left the garden if it is of any useful reference here:

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.XIV.10.html

God Bless,

 

[The_Barbarian]

Intelligent Design is not a religion.

Let’s see what the guys who invented it say (when they think no one else is in earshot)

**Governing Goals

* To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
* To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and hurnan beings are created by God.

**
(Wedge Document, accidentally released outside the DI)

Yep. It’s a religion, with the goal of reducing God to a size they hope to fit into public schools.

God is the Creator, not some inferior “designer.”

 

[buffalo]

Let’s see what the guys who invented it say (when they think no one else is in earshot)

**Governing Goals

* To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
* To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and hurnan beings are created by God.

**
(Wedge Document, accidentally released outside the DI)

Yep. It’s a religion, with the goal of reducing God to a size they hope to fit into public schools.

God is the Creator, not some inferior “designer.”

Oh my gosh - God in a public school - what a travesty - unprecedented - scandalous - let’s avoid this at all costs.

 

[Nickkname]

There have been many evangelicals lately who hold to the Young Earth theory, that the earth is 6,000 years old. They deduce this from scripture. I would like to know what some of you CF members think of this theory. It seems to me that science has provided considerable evidence that shows the contrary: that the earth is very old. About 4.5 billion years. Please render your comments on this subject. Thanks.

Are ya kidding? Science has not only shown evidence to the contrary, REASON ITSELF shows evidence to the contrary.

I swear, sometimes I feel like throwing a fossil at the Evangelicals.

 

[rossum]

Oh my gosh - God in a public school - what a travesty - unprecedented - scandalous - let’s avoid this at all costs.

Have a look at Why I’m against pre-game prayers. Do you really want Buddhist and Shinto priests in American Schools?

rossum

 

[buffalo]

Have a look at Why I’m against pre-game prayers. Do you really want Buddhist and Shinto priests in American Schools?

rossum

I do understand this issue. However, this county is founded on Judeo Christian values. God is an essential part of learning, but we leave Him out.

The message to the kids - God is not really highly regarded for we do not teach you He exists.

It is a conundrum.