Your opinion on homosexual relationships

[at9009]

Fwiw, I personally regard that whole ex-gay/conversion therapy business as a throwback to the 1950s. (Not surprising that it’s supported by tons of traditionalist Catholics – who, sadly, are often a lot better at getting their message out there than other Catholics are.)

Yeah that makes sense. I’m not sure how to break that mold. It does seem like there is this false dichotomy of either ex-gay/conversion therapy push or an affirming theology push.

Despite all my frustrations, I do think people like those at spiritualfriendship.org are making a difference and hopefully showing how to live in adherence with traditional sexual ethics when dealing with this cross. I am somewhat hopeful that they can defuse.

Here is a good article from that site: spiritualfriendship.org/2013/08/09/celibacy-and-healing/ It’s a good article, but here is an excerpt I took out an excerpt below here:

One reason for this, I think, is that many Christians thought of marriage as an expression of divine healing, while celibacy was seen as merely settling for a fallen condition.

This is a serious mistake.

Celibacy is a high and difficult calling, and to live it well requires deep inner transformation. Spiritual friendship, too, requires an inner transformation that purifies the heart.

To pray for healing and to pray for orientation change are not identical. Paul says that though some of the Corinthians had engaged in various forms of sin, including homosexual activity, they were washed, sanctified, and justified. Some have used this as proof that God promises orientation change. But in the very next chapter, he praises celibacy as a higher calling—a better way of serving Christ—than marriage. If we are to “earnestly desire the higher gifts,” and to pray boldly for them, then there surely is nothing amiss if we pray boldly for this gift.

To live celibacy well requires in some ways a deeper healing, and a more dramatic inner transformation than opposite sex marriage would require. Although our pursuit of chastity—whether in marriage or in single life—begins with difficult self-denial, and often involves ongoing seasons of deep struggle, we shouldn’t think of celibacy primarily as a “booby prize”: the consolation given to the losers whose prayers for “healing” (understood solely in terms of orientation change) go unanswered. Nor should we view the sometimes gradual but resolute approach to Christian perfection in the life of those whose orientation has not changed as evidence that God has not healed. To do so involves a radical misunderstanding of vocation and of the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[at9009]

I agree. If I, or anyone else, say “Gay persons are disordered” then we should say that same about everyone.

“Gay persons are disordered” reminds me of what the Pharisees said to the blind man that Jesus healed: “You were born completely in sin, and you presume to speak to us?” (If he was born completely in sin, then weren’t they also?)

Thanks for the reminder . I’ve actually used that scripture for myself as well.

I also kinda use Paul’s talk about his thorn in his side and his mentality towards it and apply it to my cross. Because although it is frustrating, I can see lots of grace and blessing from God in carrying it. I am more compassionate, merciful, and can understand my dependence on God because of my cross. In all honestly, without this particular cross, I’m not sure if my faith would have even been this strong because I could have coasted though life. Instead because of my cross, I had to address what I believe and why.

 

[CatholicSheila]

Except if you read CatholicShelia’s post (#142) and I guess mine post (136, the long ramble thing lol) shows that the issue is not being careful with language.]
PRmerger;14399605:

Or…the issue is that some people *want *

to take offense so they find a message in the text that wasn’t there.

I wasn’t finding a message that wasn’t there.

The posts I have been referring to clearly stated that people were disordered not just actions. This is contrary to the church.

See post #6
We are to charitably minister to those who are disordered.

post # 57*
At some point it boils down to a disordered person, not just disordered actions or inclinations. *

You acknowledged earlier that Christians in the past have treated LGBT very badly. This has caused a great deal of hurt amongst LGBT. It is that hurt that has caused some of us to be extra sensitive. When we hear that we are personally disordered, not our inclinations but our actual self, it is really difficult to not take it personally. It is a statement about me as a person. It is very close to what we’ve heard from others about how we are forever sinful, completely unloveable and completely irredeemable. We are not worthy of the space we take up.

You may not think that. I don’t believe you do think that. You do need to be aware however of the environment the people you are talking to have, and sometimes still are, living in. You also need to be aware that some people do think like this. Still.

As I’ve said before, I’m gay and I’m celibate. I have no issue with Church teaching. If you say that homosexual inclinations are disordered I’ll stand next to you. I just ask that Catholics be careful with our words. That we do not put on people more than Church does and that we are careful to talk about actions and not attack the actual people.

I want my fellow LGBT to come into the Church. When they feel attacked they get defensive and eventually they take action to protect themselves. Sometimes they run into the shadow of our Lord (may all do that) but many just leave. That breaks my heart. The Church does not teach that LGBT are irredeemable or disordered. Our Lord does not se them that way. Yet so often as laity our language gives that message.

Please excuse me if I have rambled a bit. When a topic is so personal it can be difficult to be clear and concise.

 

[CatholicSheila]

For what it’s worth, I just wanted to say that I have great admiration for those who are gay and yet live a faithful celibate life as the Church requires. Not an easy road to follow. I hope you find the support and friendship you need in the Church. Hang in there, and may God bless you.

Thank you for your kind words. Simple kindness goes a long way in helping to ease someone’s cross. IIt is a wonderful reminder that there are many Catholics who do wish the best for us.

 

[josh987654321]

As far as I am aware, Russia simply banned the propaganda of homosexuality, which I think is right and just.

youtube.com/watch?v=m8xSZ9Fr4c0

I think Putin answered the question well and I share some of his views in that clip.

What actually happens in Russia, I don’t know what it’s like because I have never lived there. I can only go on what’s available to me.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

I’d honestly recommend reading some of the stuff at spirtualfriendship.org (a blog by LGBT/ssa Christians who adhere to a traditional sexual ethic-some celibate and some within a marriage to an opposite sex spouse).

Alright, I’ll check it out.

A good way for you to distinguish people might be SSM affirming LGBT/ssa vs chaste/celibate LGBT/ssa.

I think most of that will go over the average persons head.

Language is important and people have done a terrible job at expressing that there is place for LGBT/ssa within the Church and that they are actually wanted.

In my experience it’s never come up, as I wouldn’t introduce myself to someone as ‘heterosexual’ and I assume neither would you as ‘homosexual’.

It’s also very difficult I believe, because TV has given it a ‘persona’ a kind of ‘gay’ persona, so that if someone acts a certain way e.g. “Fabulous” or comes out as ‘gay’ then with it comes a dozen assumptions which is very unfortunate. And I believe that’s what is the cause of most of it.

Unfortunately when a TV character or other media related thing, comes out as ‘gay’ they certainly don’t mean ‘chaste’ in the definition.

Most of the discussion revolves around why marriage is the way it is or a rather worthless semantical debate over a three letter word (gay) vs a three letter acronym (SSA).

I think that has a lot to do with the Activists who have polarized the issue In such terms, for example, when the media reports someone as coming out ‘gay’ they are usually referring to more than simply SSA, they are usually referring to the whole 9 yards.

For me, I tend to use both interchangably as they mean the same to me and by using gay I’m not implying it is central to my identify.

A lot of other people are implying that though, and by all means, if you want to use ‘gay’ and try and turn around the common assumption with it, but it will be a bit of an uphill battle I think unfortunately.

I am also rather frustrated lack of discussion is out there.

I think sometimes that can be a good thing, Id just recommend, stay close to Christ and he will guide you through it all.

I sadly still often here that I’m a worse Christian because I have this cross,

But you know your not. So don’t worry about it, it’s just the times we are in at the moment, just ride it out. When one side goes to one extreme (Same sex marriage and promotion of sodomy etc), there is a tendency for the opposite extreme too unfortunately.

that if I had actual faith I wouldn’t have these particular temptations,

Faith and prayer greatly helps with temptation I believe, but it doesn’t always remove it. So it’s mistaken for them to say that you wouldn’t be tempted if you had faith, because even those with the greatest faith face temptations of all different kinds, Christ himself was tempted in the desert.

that I must have been abused or had a bad father experience, apparently experimented as a child or was bad a sports, …

I understand that many are fatigued when dealing with this issue, but I don’t have the luxury of just not dealing with it. I have to monitor my speech, language, work on my poker face so my family doesn’t know less I want to risk disownment,

Why would they want to disown you when you have no intention of acting out on it?

I have to deflect dating questions effectively so a few members of my parish don’t suspect my sexuality and show hostility (since they have said negative things), and I wonder what my school fellowship group would say if they found out. I hate feeling like I’m treated like this wedge issue where I have to walk on eggshells while basically dealing with my problems on my own. I hate that I basically have to whitewash and omit things from my own testimonial less I offend someone for saying I am gay/ssa celibate (striving for chastity) Catholic.

May I ask how old you are?

I get frustrated that culture and even Christian culture treats marriage as a check box in life and that I’m viewed by some as ‘spiritually immature’ because I’m unmarried without children. I am frustrated at the lack of compassion by many (and seemingly some here) about the pain and grief that people like me have gone through over the realization that marriage isn’t in m vocation. I’m equally frustrated with the lack of support as I go through the struggles of lacking connection and non-sexual physical intimacy because society at large (and to some extent Christian culture) has equated love with romantic love and sex so much that I can’t even have a close hug with a friend without worrying it will scandalize someone.

Don’t worry, I get frustrated about some things too. Just find time to pray and Christ will guide you through it (I need to pray some more myself).

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[at9009]

Alright, I’ll check it out.

In my experience it’s never come up, as I wouldn’t introduce myself to someone as ‘heterosexual’ and I assume neither would you as ‘homosexual’.

To be honest I find that kind of frustrating. You wouldn’t have to introduce yourself as heterosexual because you are already assumed to be straight (since like 96%+ of the population is). There are many conversations that come up where to keep my sexuality private I either basically have to lie by omission, deflection, or leave the conversation all together (things like what women are my type, who do I find attractive, why I am still single, when I am getting married, etc). A decent number of well intentioned older people like to says things like when you are married, when you have kids, when you find someone etc. For a straight person, those can be helpful conversations. For me, it often feels like a knife to the chest because I still often grieve the loss of ‘being normal’ with a wife and biological kids (from my discernment, marriage is most likely not in my cards).

It’s also very difficult I believe, because TV has given it a ‘persona’ a kind of ‘gay’ persona, so that if someone acts a certain way e.g. “Fabulous” or comes out as ‘gay’ then with it comes a dozen assumptions which is very unfortunate. And I believe that’s what is the cause of most of it.

Unfortunately when a TV character or other media related thing, comes out as ‘gay’ they certainly don’t mean ‘chaste’ in the definition.

I agree with you and find it frustrating that every gay character that comes out is basically a stereotype. However, I also get frustrated when shows basically with only straight characters couple every character off, make jokes about the single character being upset and fearful of ‘dying alone.’ The focus is often on the joy of the characters finding romantic love and basically no one really cares or talks about friendship. It really does create this feeling of being an ‘other’ and can be very isolated. So, sometimes shows that everyone enjoys and deep romantic love stories end up being rather depressing for me.

Not to mention every coming of age story is about teenage boy finding girl, being awkward, dating, and having all that joy. None of that I experienced or relate too. So, even though gay characters are not chaste, I kinda do appreciate having them in the story line. Who knows, maybe in the near future there can be more representation of celibate gay people in media somewhere.

I think that has a lot to do with the Activists who have polarized the issue In such terms, for example, when the media reports someone as coming out ‘gay’ they are usually referring to more than simply SSA, they are usually referring to the whole 9 yards.

I think it really depends on what generation you are talking with. In most cases for me, it seems that people come out are basically disclosing their sexuality (i.e. their attractions). There isn’t this desire to talk about sexual ethics yet (though I agree with you most are not intending to live chastely). I see it where with people I love, I can be honest and open about this deep secret I have been hiding, worrying about how it will affect our relationships, and added a ton of extra psychological stress on my end. I will admit that being closeted and protective of my ‘deep secret’ does sometimes make it hard to connect and be vulnerable with developing friendships as I’m constantly monitoring my speech, word choice, etc. Just having it ‘out there’ to be known and not have to hide it would be a lot easier on me in some ways (though I’m pretty closeted so it can also be a grass is always greenier thing).

A lot of other people are implying that though, and by all means, if you want to use ‘gay’ and try and turn around the common assumption with it, but it will be a bit of an uphill battle I think unfortunately.

Yeah, but the idea of being celibate for religious beliefs itself is a very counter cultural thing and uphill battle in our society. I do think also that using the commonly used language like ‘gay or lgbt’ is important evangelization purposes. I think Wesley Hill with his Book Washed and Waiting and using gay celibate Christian has done a lot of good. To be honest, when an organization heavily uses SSA over labels like gay I tend to get highly cautious and wary of it as possible ex-gay pushing organization.

 

[PRmerger]

I wasn’t finding a message that wasn’t there.

Well, as the messenger, I can tell you: that wasn’t my message.

You acknowledged earlier that Christians in the past have treated LGBT very badly. This has caused a great deal of hurt amongst LGBT. It is that hurt that has caused some of us to be extra sensitive.

I’m not opposed to people being extra sensitive.

In my many, many years here I’ve encountered not a few folks who are quite fragile mentally, and I do indeed try to tailor my posts with this in mind. I tread lightly with them, more delicately stating my opposition to their views.

When we hear that we are personally disordered, not our inclinations but our actual self, it is really difficult to not take it personally.

Well, I look at it 2 ways:

-if you are personally disordered for your disordered desire, then I am personally disordered for my disordered desires. In fact every human person on this planet is personally disordered. All one has to do is read the newspaper to see that.

Or…

-you are made in God’s image, just like me, and your disordered desires, like my disordered desires, need to be not indulged.

It is a statement about me as a person. It is very close to what we’ve heard from others about how we are forever sinful, completely unloveable and completely irredeemable. We are not worthy of the space we take up.

Sheesh! Who’s said something like that here?

Not a single person that I’ve read, that’s for sure.

You may not think that. I don’t believe you do think that. You do need to be aware however of the environment the people you are talking to have, and sometimes still are, living in. You also need to be aware that some people do think like this. Still.

No doubt. And I will oppose those folks and their anti-Catholic views.

 

[PRmerger]

To be honest, when an organization heavily uses SSA over labels like gay I tend to get highly cautious and wary of it as possible ex-gay pushing organization.

Would that include the Catholic Church, then?

 

[PRmerger]

To be honest, when an organization heavily uses SSA over labels like gay I tend to get highly cautious and wary of it as possible ex-gay pushing organization.

Just curious: what do you think if I said that I tend to get highly cautious and wary when a person uses Gay over SSA, as possibly pushing an indulgence of this disordered desire?

 

[at9009]

I think sometimes that can be a good thing, Id just recommend, stay close to Christ and he will guide you through it all.

I’d say I’d have to respectfully disagree. There is plenty of talk about sexual ethics, marriage, family, and culture war fighting over the issue. What there is little actual talk of is pastoral and fellowship support of people like me. I get a little tired of it being only treated as an intellectual theological debate. That is why I think people like a Wesley Hill with “Washed and Waiting” and Eve Tushnet (“Gay and Catholic”) are important voices.

I deal with this particular cross my entire life and dealing with it more or less on my own and ‘just following Christ’ wasn’t really a sustainable path. It was not a lack of faith but a realization of mine that God built us for relationships, connections, conversations. The Church and our parishes should be families of believers. It is why when we say the Our Father is is Our Father not my, Give us not me, etc. We can and should be the support and sometimes the Simon in each other’s lives because sometimes we need help (even Christ had a moment of help in carrying his cross). Too, often (whether unintentonal or not) the feeling I get is that I’m expected to be silent and basically just deal with my particular cross on my own. I understand many are fatigued on the subject or just don’t want to talk about it any further. They have that luxury, i don’t. I’m trying to live in a society that sexualizes everything and idoltrizes romance while worrying about many things that probably don’t even think about).

But you know your not. So don’t worry about it, it’s just the times we are in at the moment, just ride it out. When one side goes to one extreme (Same sex marriage and promotion of sodomy etc), there is a tendency for the opposite extreme too unfortunately.

True. The hard part though is that many of our fellow Christians, family members, friends, even for some pastors, etc. are the ones of the one extreme. It is hard to not find that discouraging. To not begin to wonder if our acceptance from our families, friends, etc is all conditional on how well we stay closeted.

I know people who despite being celibate and chaste were ostracized from their families, from their churches, or religious organizations because they disclosed their same sex attractions (because they thought they should be honest) or because it was suspected. It leads to this feeling of wariness when in orthodox circles and me subconsciously putting up big defensive walls which can be mentally exhausting and make being anything more than a superficial friendship hard.

Faith and prayer greatly helps with temptation I believe, but it doesn’t always remove it. So it’s mistaken for them to say that you wouldn’t be tempted if you had faith, because even those with the greatest faith face temptations of all different kinds, Christ himself was tempted in the desert.

True. It is hard to break though. Because we do have this gospel of wealth heresy kinda under the surface within at least US culture. Many seem to think becoming Christian = easier life and everything will be peachy. We forget that following Christ is hard and often comes with personal trials and tribulations (We are all tested and purified like Gold in fire in our own sanctification.

Why would they want to disown you when you have no intention of acting out on it?

From their past comments regarding gay/ssa people makes it pretty clear it isn’t a safe time to come out. Family on my dad’s side definitely has the attitude of true Christians don’t struggle with this and if one does they aren’t saved yet (they are Evangelical Protestants). My mom’s side (Catholic) isn’t much better. I can still remember my uncle when talking about the whole gay and boy scout debate talking about how positive he was that his troops didn’t have any gays in it because all the leaders and kids were good people (the disgust at the possibility in his face was palpable). I have grandparents who have insinuated that all gay men are child predators (and no one challenged that assertion) and suggested that we should just round ‘them’ all up and place them on an island with food so they’ll all die off in a generation (again no one said anything). My older brother who thinks all gay/ssa people are mentally disturbed and should be basically institutionalized. I remember when I was younger overhearing my dad talking with a friend about it when there was the debate over don’t ask don’t tell saying he thought it was a choice (Not the actions but the attractions themselves). I was still deep in denial and couldn’t admit my cross to myself at that point, but when I started to accept I have this cross, that conversation was still in my thoughts. Basically whenever the topic has come up, they have not exercised any charity or made any distinctions between sexually active vs celibate or whatever.

So, doesn’t seem like a conducive environment to talk about though I guess I’m just delaying the inevitable because as I get older, remain single, and don’t date, they’ll have to figure it out eventually.

May I ask how old you are?

I’m 26.

Thanks for the conversation. God bless you as well.

 

[at9009]

Would that include the Catholic Church, then?

No. The Catholic Church teaching makes the distinction between acts and attractions with one as sinful and one as a cross to bear. Ex-gay organizations treat both as inherently sinful, act as if for one to be a ‘good Christian’ they have to remove all same sex attractions otherwise they are not at right with God regardless of if they resist their temptations or not.

Ex-gay organizations also tend to rely heavily on somewhat dated and not accurate Freudian psychology for the causes of same sex attraction (ignoring the possibly of just it being one’s own manifestation of brokenness), often over promise change (which leads to eventual heart break when one doesn’t change), and sometimes even insinuate that if one hasn’t changed it’s lack of faith or desire.

If I though the Church was ex-gay, why would I still be here, why would I remain celibate?

 

[randomuser]

Would that include the Catholic Church, then?

The Catholic Church uses the term “homosexual” and “homosexuality” in the Catechism – not “SSA.”

I’m not aware of any usage of the term “SSA” by the Magisterium.

 

[PRmerger]

No.

But just to be clear: the Church does not use the term “Gay”.

The Catholic Church teaching makes the distinction between acts and attractions with one as sinful and one as a cross to bear. Ex-gay organizations treat both as inherently sinful, act as if for one to be a ‘good Christian’ they have to remove all same sex attractions otherwise they are not at right with God regardless of if they resist their temptations or not.

Ex-gay organizations also tend to rely heavily on somewhat dated and not accurate Freudian psychology for the causes of same sex attraction (ignoring the possibly of just it being one’s own manifestation of brokenness), often over promise change (which leads to eventual heart break when one doesn’t change), and sometimes even insinuate that if one hasn’t changed it’s lack of faith or desire.

If I though the Church was ex-gay, why would I still be here, why would I remain celibate?

So it sounds more like you’re not against the preference of using the term SSA, but rather on an organization’s modus of addressing this attraction.

 

[PRmerger]

The Catholic Church uses the term “homosexual” and “homosexuality” in the Catechism – not “SSA.”

I’m not aware of any usage of the term “SSA” by the Magisterium.

From our bishops in the US:

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/homosexuality/

 

[randomuser]

Fwiw, I personally regard that whole ex-gay/conversion therapy business as a throwback to the 1950s. (Not surprising that it’s supported by tons of traditionalist Catholics – who, sadly, are often a lot better at getting their message out there than other Catholics are.)

There’s no such thing as “ex-gay,” only people who were never gay to begin with. Hence, the relatively new concept of using “SSA” (a non-Catechism term and non-medical term) as euphemism for “gay” because using the word “gay” somehow means celebration of the “gay lifestyle,” whatever that means.

 

[randomuser]

From our bishops in the US:

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/homosexuality/

From what you cited:

"The Church seeks to enable every person to live out the universal call to holiness. Persons with a homosexual inclination [emphasis added] ought to receive every aid and encouragement to embrace this call personally and fully. This will unavoidably involve much struggle and self-mastery, for following Jesus always means following the way of the Cross… The Sacraments of the Eucharist and of Penance are essential sources of consolation and aid on this path."
- USCCB, Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination [emphasis added] (2006), p. 13

That’s two (2) uses of the term “homosexual,” and zero (0) uses of the phrase “SSA.”

 

[PRmerger]

From what you cited:

"The Church seeks to enable every person to live out the universal call to holiness. Persons with a homosexual inclination [emphasis added] ought to receive every aid and encouragement to embrace this call personally and fully. This will unavoidably involve much struggle and self-mastery, for following Jesus always means following the way of the Cross… The Sacraments of the Eucharist and of Penance are essential sources of consolation and aid on this path."
- USCCB, Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination [emphasis added] (2006), p. 13

That’s two (2) uses of the term “homosexual,” and zero (0) uses of the phrase “SSA.”

From what I cited:

“and other relatives and friends of persons who have same-sex attraction”.

 

[randomuser]

But just to be clear: the Church does not use the term “Gay”.

So it sounds more like you’re not against the preference of using the term SSA, but rather on an organization’s modus of addressing this attraction.

FALSE. What the Church doesn’t use is the term “SSA.”

 

[PRmerger]

FALSE. What the Church doesn’t use is the term “SSA.”

Ok.

I prefer to use the term “homosexual” myself.

That’s what the Church uses, too.