Your opinion on Purgatory?

[laocmo]

Who invented it? When did they invent it? Is there a patent number? Please show where the doctrine says that Purgatory is punishment.

To many Protestants this is one of the most wrong of all Catholic teachings. It represents a medieval invention nowhere to be found in the Bible. It’s often called "a denial of the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice.” Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven. Protestant’s will point out the fact that there is no mention of “the cleansing of sin” anywhere in the Bible. Protestants say we do not recognize that, because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified. Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins. Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. Catholics point out a passage that says “nothing unclean shall enter heaven” This leads to the idea of a place where this cleaning can take place. All in all it seems to be a Catholic invention. Who knows for sure.

 

[davidv]

To many Protestants this is one of the most wrong of all Catholic teachings.
Why should I believe these Protestants?

It represents a medieval invention

I know for sure that your mischaracterization of Purgatory leads you the erroneous conclusions that you state here.

 

[HabemusFrancis]

^ Then again, words like “trinity” “incarnation” and “hell” are not found in the bible (as such) but we believe they are real.

Just to be clear, “Purgatory” was not a midieval invention. Many of the Christians in the Roman catacombs said prayers for the dead, and there are many references in OT and NT about souls having to pay some satisfication even after they are forgiven and saved.

The word itself Purgatory perhaps is from the middle ages, as is Dante and other poets imaginiative/creative renditions of it. But the concept itslef is quite old, and found in many cultures around the world actually

 

[yppop]

Every now and then the question of Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory is posted. Here is what I respond:

I am 82 years old and more and more, each day, heaven becomes an important object of contemplation. I’ve decided that since I have never seen a description of Heaven that is both imaginable and plausible and also accounts for that other possibility we call Hell, I stopped guessing what Heaven and Hell are like and began to imagine what I would liked them to be. It is easier to describe my Heaven than my Hell because fortunately this lifetime was closer to a Heaven than to a Hell. So here’s what I would like Heaven to be like: My mother, father will be in the same age-relationship with me as they were this time around. They won’t be teenagers and they won’t be ageless, they will be my mother and father. So too will my brothers and sisters, my children, their children and all the people I have known in this lifetime will be there just as they are or were in this lifetime. Yes, there will be the same animals, flowers, oceans, stars, rocks and all the things I’ve experienced in this lifetime. I will fall in love again with the same beautiful woman and live an entire married life immersed in romance, good humor, and friendship. My Heavenly life will be filled with the same or more of the laughter, wonder, love, joy, fun, peace, nostalgia, and piety that has filled this life. I will hit a baseball again; I will hear La Boheme for the first time again; I will sing babies to sleep in the middle of a quiet night again. I will eat peanuts, smell roses, hear a whippoorwill, see the ocean for the first time; see Broadway musicals, watch my children graduate, marry the same persons, and have the same children again. You get the idea.

On the Hell side, there will be diseases, earthquakes, plaques, floods, and all sorts of physical evil. But that stuff will be diminished as also will social evil such as wars, bigotry, injustice, tyranny, and poverty be diminished next time. Since I have had a minimum of disappointments in this life, I can’t describe a vision of a personal Hell but it would consist of far too many regrets and sins, none of which I care to share. But if I have confessed those sins, transgressions, and regrets, then they won’t happen in the Heaven that is my next lifetime because I will enter into it with a more effective conscience.

So my Heaven and Hell would look a lot like my present life except there would be fewer regrets and sins committed. In other words it would be palpably better. Kind of like the movie “Ground Hog Day” in which Bill Murray repeatedly wakes up on the same day, but with each repetition, he alters his behavior for the better, and experiences more and more joy. Each new life would be closer to Heaven and farther from Hell until I and all the rest of humanity achieved that goal a of being united in the fullness of the Mystical Body of Christ.

I am not saying with certainty that this is a theological view of Heaven in accordance with scripture and the “defined dogma” of the Catholic Church, it is merely what I want Heaven to be like. On the other hand, it describes how those that have been derived of a full lifetime of wonder, peace, and joy, like a young teen age girl with a fine mind and a body wracked with spina bifida can have a clear vision of hope. It also allows those now suffering in a life that seems like Hell to escape, so that eventually all bodies will be perfected and all souls will be sanctified. In the meantime, we are making our way through our personnel Purgatories of sin and infirmity in which we too often make the wrong choices by failing to respond to God’s grace. Eventually we will all escape our personal Hell’s and arrive at that perfect world we call Heaven.

And how would this sort of Heaven/Hell come about. Well there does happen to be a scientific solution for my hope. It is called the Many World Interpretation of the Schroedinger wave equation. It is based on the principle of superposition which when applied to the wave equation means that whenever a choice is made between good and evil the world splits in two and you follow your chosen path. So if the MWI is real, it would mean a promise of successive lifetimes (parallel worlds, not to be confused with the multiple worlds theories). I have had the pleasure of experiencing the efficacy of the Schroedinger equation while working as an engineer in the semiconductor industry and have hope that I will get to live again in a parallel world that is even more sanctifying than the present one. It is with such hope that I find meaning in this life.

I find theological support for my view in the following excerpt from the Vatican’s 2004 International Theological Commissions report on “*Human Persons Created in the Image of God” *where it states in step 29:
The central dogmas of the Christian faith imply that the body is an intrinsic part of the human person and thus participates in his being created in the image of God. … The effects of the sacraments, though in themselves primarily spiritual, are accomplished by means of perceptible material signs, which can only be received in and through the body. This shows that not only man’s mind but also his body is redeemed. The body becomes a temple of the Holy Spirit. Finally, that the body belongs essentially to the human person is inherent to the doctrine of the resurrection of the body at the end of time, which implies that man exists in eternity as a complete physical and spiritual person.

From this I infer that since our bodies are resurrected at the end of time to exist eternally as a complete physical and spiritual person, it seems plausible to me that there be interim states in which the process of justification and the perfection of the body is brought to fruition. Hence parallel worlds.

Yppop

 

[MT1926]

What then is the difference between saying OK, you are forgiven but I’m still going to punish you, . In this case there is still a love relationship between the forgiver and the forgiven.
laocmo;13778871:

and saying OK, you are not

forgiven and I’m going to punish you. In both cases there is punishment. In this case there is a break down in the love relationship between the unforgiver and the unforgiven.

That makes the forgiveness or non forgiveness an unimportant issue.

. I think the forgiveness is the most important issue we have here, without God’s loving forgiveness there would be no purgatory. Why people deny purgatory and believe the extent of their responsibility for their sins is to only have to say the word sorry, is beyond me.

 

[HabemusFrancis]

Every now and then the question of Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory is posted. Here is what I respond:

I am 82 years old and more and more, each day, heaven becomes an important object of contemplation. I’ve decided that since I have never seen a description of Heaven that is both imaginable and plausible and also accounts for that other possibility we call Hell, I stopped guessing what Heaven and Hell are like and began to imagine what I would liked them to be. It is easier to describe my Heaven than my Hell because fortunately this lifetime was closer to a Heaven than to a Hell. So here’s what I would like Heaven to be like: My mother, father will be in the same age-relationship with me as they were this time around. They won’t be teenagers and they won’t be ageless, they will be my mother and father. So too will my brothers and sisters, my children, their children and all the people I have known in this lifetime will be there just as they are or were in this lifetime. Yes, there will be the same animals, flowers, oceans, stars, rocks and all the things I’ve experienced in this lifetime. I will fall in love again with the same beautiful woman and live an entire married life immersed in romance, good humor, and friendship. My Heavenly life will be filled with the same or more of the laughter, wonder, love, joy, fun, peace, nostalgia, and piety that has filled this life. I will hit a baseball again; I will hear La Boheme for the first time again; I will sing babies to sleep in the middle of a quiet night again. I will eat peanuts, smell roses, hear a whippoorwill, see the ocean for the first time; see Broadway musicals, watch my children graduate, marry the same persons, and have the same children again. You get the idea.

Yppop

This is really a great and profound reflection on the afterlife. I wouldn’t be surprised if you were correct. I certainly wouldn’t object your view of heaven!

It sounds like you have lived a very fulfilling, full and rich life, one that all people should want to have or emulate !!!

 

[frangiuliano115]

It’s a town in Colorado. Which is cool, as I have never been in Colorado.

J/K

Really, I imagine Purgatory as a kind of customs line where we pay off the “tariff” on our cherished sins before being admitted to life everlasting. But because our attachment to sin is inside of our soul, it hurts to “work it off.”

ICXC NIKA

Oh. I thought Jesus did this…

 

[frangiuliano115]

Why should I believe these Protestants?

This is the second time you have made claim without evidence. Back it up, or retract it.

Why is this a problem. The Bible itself states that not all of Jesus’ teaching are recorded.
This is a straw man argument. Purgatory is not about forgiveness.

Correct. Cleansing, not forgiveness.

That is because they lack the Church as the authority and source of the authentic teachings of Jesus.

I know for sure that your mischaracterization of Purgatory leads you the erroneous conclusions that you state here.

Iacomo’s last paragraph is correct.
Jesus died to pay our sin debt. He was made sin for us.
1 Peter 2:24 “and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousneess, for by His wounds you were healed.”

Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Romans 5:1 “Therefor having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

2 Corinthians 5:21 “He [God] made Him, who knew no sin, to be sin onour behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

You’re correct in saying that some words are not in the bible, for example Trinity. However the concept is there: Jesus told the Apostles to go into the world and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Mathew 28:19
Jesus is fully God and fully man. He was born as a baby but performed miracles as God and exorcised demons as God and went to the cross as God.

Would you please provide scripture that refers to purgatory.
I cannot find any.

F

 

[davidv]

Iacomo’s last paragraph is correct.
Jesus died to pay our sin debt. He was made sin for us.
1 Peter 2:24 “and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousneess, for by His wounds you were healed.”

Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Romans 5:1 “Therefor having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

2 Corinthians 5:21 “He [God] made Him, who knew no sin, to be sin onour behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

You’re correct in saying that some words are not in the bible, for example Trinity. However the concept is there: Jesus told the Apostles to go into the world and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Mathew 28:19
Jesus is fully God and fully man. He was born as a baby but performed miracles as God and exorcised demons as God and went to the cross as God.

Would you please provide scripture that refers to purgatory.
I cannot find any.

F

Please explain why scripture is required.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Please explain why scripture is required.

Well, I was nice and provided scripture to show how Jesus took our sins upon Himself which would make purgatory unnecessary.

All churches, including the Catholic Church base their doctrine on scripture. If you check out all the doctrine of the church, and also all the sacraments, you’ll probably find that they are based on scripture.

How do you think the church came up with doctrine? Did it just sit around with some guys and make them up?

So, I’m trying to find out WHICH scriptures speak of purgatory since it’s a doctrine that makes no sense to me. Which I showed you with scripture.

Thanks.

 

[frangiuliano115]

All believe?? Not so, I think it was an invented concept to allow God to punish his children at least a little for their smaller sins. We say God forgives. Purgatory certainly destroys that idea. We say Jesus died for forgiveness of our sins, Yet we still have to suffer the pains of Hell at least for a while for stealing that apple from the grocer’s display. Think about it. Doesn’t Purgatory contradict many of your beliefs about divine forgiveness.

Iacomo
I was so happy to read the above!

If purgatory exists, then there was NO REASON for Jesus to have to die.
I mean, are we forgiven OR NOT? I think the church needs to make up its mind.

The church will tell you that someone could steal that apple and be found “Not Guilty” by a judge in a court - but that you still have to PAY for that apple.

First of all, God has perfect justice and we’re talking about man’s idea of justice when we make such comparisons.

Second of all, JESUS DIED TO PAY OUR SIN DEBT.
WE DON’T OWE ANY MONEY FOR THAT APPLE.

Was Jesus’ sacrifice NOT sufficient!

Also, if I have my history correct, purgatory was not declared till about the year 1,000.
It developed gradually and was not a part of the beliefs of the first apostles. Paul said: To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

Thanks for posting.

 

[MT1926]

If purgatory exists, then there was NO REASON for Jesus to have to die.
I mean, are we forgiven OR NOT? I think the church needs to make up its mind.

Just curious can you point out where in the Bible it say Jesus eliminated the consequences of our sins?

Here are some verses that points the Church towards purgatory. However, unless Jesus left us someone in charge to keep us on his path they can be interpreted any way we want. Which would make Jesus a pretty insufficient leader.

Matthew 5:25-26
25*Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison;26truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Jesus here is giving us a teaching of a prison and paying a penny to get out as a metaphor for Purgatorial suffering that will be required for lesser transgressions.

Habakkuk 1:13
13 Thou (God) who art of purer eyes than to behold evil and canst not look on wrong,

Rev. 21: 27
“But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”*

Matt.5: 48
“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths?

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble— 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day[a] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

This text is pretty clear in my eyes, not sure how you want to work around but I am open to your thoughts and opinions.

Was Jesus’ sacrifice NOT sufficient!

Before answering this I think we need to look ask St. Paul.

Colossians 1:21-25
21 And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking[a] in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the divine office which was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known,

I think St. Paul is making it clear that Jesus’ sacrifice is sufficient but it is not a once and for all when he states “provided that you continue in the faith”. If we continue on we see that he points out that our cooperation does not take away from the sufficiency of Jesus’ sacrifice.

Even though in 24 it sounds that way, I am pretty sure Paul is not being blasphemous and saying that something is lacking in Christ’s sacrifice. Paul is saying our sufferings during this life or at its end can be united to Christ’s sufferings on the cross and secure spiritual graces for others. When we continue to read 26 he is trying to make the point that we need the Church (not just the Bible, especially since it didn’t exist yet), which was given to him for us, to make the word of God fully known.

Paul said: To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

Actually the context of 2 Corinthians says this:

2 Corinthians 5:6-10
6*So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,7for we walk by faith, not by sight.8We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.9So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord is actually not Biblical. If you read carefully you see it says while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. It goes on to say we would rather be away from the body and home with the Lord. Rather is a hope not a guarantee. This verse actually tells us we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ.

 

[davidv]

Well, I was nice and provided scripture to show how Jesus took our sins upon Himself which would make purgatory unnecessary.

The scripture you provided does not preclude purgatory. Why do you think purgatory is about forgiveness?

All churches, including the Catholic Church base their doctrine on scripture.

This is not true. The Catholic Church is based on the teaching of Jesus which was given to the Apostles. The New Testament did not exist when the Church was founded by Jesus.

If you check out all the doctrine of the church, and also all the sacraments, you’ll probably find that they are based on scripture.

That may be. However the Sacraments came before these Scriptures. This makes the Scripture dependent on the Sacraments.

How do you think the church came up with doctrine?

The Apostles and their successors developed them from the teachings they received from Jesus.

Did it just sit around with some guys and make them up?

No.

So, I’m trying to find out WHICH scriptures speak of purgatory since it’s a doctrine that makes no sense to me. Which I showed you with scripture.

Thanks.

I think you don’t understand the difference between the forgiveness available through Christ’s sacrifice and the cleansing (removal of temporal punishment) of purgatory. So, your request for scripture is misplaced.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Just curious can you point out where in the Bible it say Jesus eliminated the consequences of our sins?

Here are some verses that points the Church towards purgatory. However, unless Jesus left us someone in charge to keep us on his path they can be interpreted any way we want. Which would make Jesus a pretty insufficient leader.

Hi MT
Thanks for such a good answer. Jesus left the Church in charge. By the time of Acts there was also a church. Churches are certainly a gjuide and the bible is somewhat difficult to read unless there is guidance. As you must surely know,judging from your knowlegdeable response the RCC did much to save Christianity in the early years since it was the only church. It did, however, change ideas and concepts as it went along and this is the part that bothers me. For instance, you must know that confession changed a few times from when Jesus ascended. Same for purgatory. It just was not in the teachings of the church Fathers. However, let’s see about these scriptures you posted.

Matthew 5:25-26
25*Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison;26truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Jesus here is giving us a teaching of a prison and paying a penny to get out as a metaphor for Purgatorial suffering that will be required for lesser transgressions.

I see how you take the last sentence to be understood as purgatory.
But if we need to be purified for these lesser transgressions, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed? This passage is plainly speaking of two men who are having a difficulty because they are on their way to court and Jesus is telling the believer to come to an agreement with his adversary because it would be better than being turned over to the judicial system of that time, which was the San Hedrin. Jesus is saying that if the adversary bring the believer to the judge and the judge sends the believer to the officer (the one to carry out punishment) then every last cent will have to be paid, or the correct amount of time be spent in prison before the believer is let out of prison.

So you see this as an allegory to purgatory. I find it interesting how we take everything Jesus said and turn it to our advantage. Here it seems clear that Jesus not speaking allegorically. But then Protestants will take John 6 and say that eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ is an just symbolism. I like to keep an open mind. I think John 6 is literal, but I cannot understand how Mathew 5 can NOT be literal. IOW, I think It’s speaking of an actual reaction that Jesus would like a believer to have instead of being involved in a civil court. It is God’s court we are to turn to.

ONE

 

[frangiuliano115]

TWO

Habakkuk 1:13
13 Thou (God) who art of purer eyes than to behold evil and canst not look on wrong,

I agree with this and this is why we are told to “put on Christ.”

Romans 13:14 “Put on Christ and make no provision for the flesh.”

Galatians 3:27 "For all of you who were baptized into Christ, have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Colossians 3:10 We put on a new self- which is in the image of Christ
This is a little different but we are still putting on something that has the image of Christ and not of ourselves. The new man is Christ in us.
Colossians 1:27 Christ is in us, the hope of Glory.

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:45-49 is interesting. It’s speaking about how we will get our glorified body at the end and in verse 49 it says that we will bear the image of the heavenly (Jesus, the second Adam).

So the concept would be like this: When we die and go before God, He will not see us, our wretched self - but He will see Jesus, His Son, whom we have “put on.”

Rev. 21: 27
“But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”*

I agree.

Matt.5: 48
“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths?

Here I request intellectual honesty. Jesus had just gotten through giving instruction on how to be (present tense) “good” as He demands that we be. He gave the beatitudes, and all the other regulations - you have heard it said, but I say to you - comparing the O.T. teaching with His new teachings. He asks us to be perfect as His Father in heaven is perfect. As a goal - it’s obvious that this is impossible, and it’s also obvious Jesus is not speaking of the future.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble— 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day[a] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

This text is pretty clear in my eyes, not sure how you want to work around but I am open to your thoughts and opinions.

I guess you’re saying that the fire is purgatory?
The above is referring to works. Please see 1 Corinthians 3:8 - each man shall receive a reward according to his own labor.

The laborers are God’s bldg. verse 9
Paul has laid the foundation - Jesus - and another builds verse 10
(you know, one tills, one plants, one waters, etc.)

Jesus Christ is the only foundation verse 11
A good builder will use gold, silver and precious stones (these will not burn in fire)
Some will build with wood, hay, stubble (these will burn in fire)
All men’s works will be judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ verse 13
(the person is already saved, but his WORKS will be judged.
The fire is referring to God’s Word - the standard by which all is judged.
This is speaking to REWARDS. The bible does speak about rewards i heaven but no one seems to know what they could be.

Before answering this I think we need to look ask St. Paul.

TWO

 

[frangiuliano115]

THREE

Colossians 1:21-25
21 And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking[a] in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the divine office which was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known,

I think St. Paul is making it clear that Jesus’ sacrifice is sufficient but it is not a once and for all when he states “provided that you continue in the faith”. If we continue on we see that he points out that our cooperation does not take away from the sufficiency of Jesus’ sacrifice.

Even though in 24 it sounds that way, I am pretty sure Paul is not being blasphemous and saying that something is lacking in Christ’s sacrifice. Paul is saying our sufferings during this life or at its end can be united to Christ’s sufferings on the cross and secure spiritual graces for others. When we continue to read 26 he is trying to make the point that we need the Church (not just the Bible, especially since it didn’t exist yet), which was given to him for us, to make the word of God fully known.
I agree with all of the above, but you might have a reason for posting which I do not understand. i would like to say that although the bible as we know it did not exist, the writings did and they were used.

Actually the context of 2 Corinthians says this:

2 Corinthians 5:6-10
6*So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,7for we walk by faith, not by sight.8We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.9So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord is actually not Biblical. If you read carefully you see it says while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. It goes on to say we would rather be away from the body and home with the Lord. Rather is a hope not a guarantee. This verse actually tells us we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ.

I’m sorry. I don’t understand.

Verse 6 Paul is at home in the body, but he is absent from the Lord.
Paul is alive . so he cannot be with the Lord.

verse 8 Paul would rather be absent from the body (dead) and be present with the Lord.

Which infers that To Be Absent From The Body, Is To Be Present With The Lord.

Please clarify better if you don’t agree with me. it seems simple enough.

Thanks for the pleasant conversation.

FG
I’m sorry this is so long!

 

[thecolorsblend]

Purgatory is about purification; not forgiveness. Have you learned what you need to learn? Are you still in some way attached to your favorite sin(s)? Purgatory is how that gets sorted out.

I sometimes think a lot of confusion might’ve been avoided had the name been “Purgation”, which is a process. Even Protestants acknowledge that the mortal must put on immortality.
Sacred Scripture:

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption; and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 And when this mortal hath put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?
1 Corinthians 15:53-55 (DRA)

Putting on incorruption prepares one for Heaven. Logically sin cannot enter Heaven. So before one can be made incorruptible, logically one must be purged of attachment to sin. Forgiveness for offenses is already a given; the believer is simply being purified of his fixation on sin. This process might only require an instant or it could require decades or even centuries from a 4D perspective. The point is that it must take place… and the only way 1 Corinthians 15:53-55 makes logical sense is if putting on immortality completely obliterates one’s attachment to sin.

Here’s something from the Catechism…

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

 

[frangiuliano115]

Purgatory is about purification; not forgiveness. Have you learned what you need to learn? Are you still in some way attached to your favorite sin(s)? Purgatory is how that gets sorted out.

I sometimes think a lot of confusion might’ve been avoided had the name been “Purgation”, which is a process. Even Protestants acknowledge that the mortal must put on immortality.

Putting on incorruption prepares one for Heaven. Logically sin cannot enter Heaven. So before one can be made incorruptible, logically one must be purged of attachment to sin. Forgiveness for offenses is already a given; the believer is simply being purified of his fixation on sin. This process might only require an instant or it could require decades or even centuries from a 4D perspective. The point is that it must take place… and the only way 1 Corinthians 15:53-55 makes logical sense is if putting on immortality completely obliterates one’s attachment to sin.

Here’s something from the Catechism…

Hi TheColorsblend
([Heaven:] When all the colors will bleed into one…
I Still Haven’t Found What I’m Looking For
U2

[The title doesn’t mean God hasn’t been found…]

No need to quote the CCC, I know it well. I would like to say that when speaking to a non-Catholic, the CCC is of no use - you must always use the bible as MT1926 did. All other Christians use the bible for support. I DO understand that the CCC is based on scripture but it’s also based on church documents and early church Father’s teaching’s and this will not be accepted. Although some non-Catholics respect the early Fathers, as they well should.

The confusion is not in the word, Colorsblend. The confusion lies in this:
Jesus died as an atonement, as a sacrifice, as a redemption.
Jesus died so we could go to heaven to be with God.
A heavy price was paid for us to get there.
Did you know that you couldn’t even go to heaven before Jesus died? In not, look into it.
I respect this heavy price that was paid.
I think God, the Father, had this all planned from the beginning, just as you believe.
I think His plan could not have included US, since we are a sinful bunch.
But I do think His plan was perfect. God is perfect.
Jesus did a complete work. From the cross He said “It Is Finished.” John 19:30
WHAT is finished?
Believing in that we have to purge our sins, means that we do not believe that Jesus finished His work. WHAT is His work?
He Himself said it is finished. It’s important to find out what that work is and if it’s complete or if He did just some of it and WE have to finish the rest.

Regarding puttng on the incorruption. A very important concept. 1 Corinthians 15:53-55
is speaking about the resurrection when this corruptible body we have now will put on the imperishable - a new and glorified body - that will never perish. It really has nothing to do with now - although I do understand your point, that it will be necessary to have an imperishable body to get into heaven.

Please think this over. When we die we go to be where we have to be. We won’t really have a body, we will only have our spirit. The body remains in the grave until the resurrection. Our spirit will go to heaven. 1 Corinthians does not address this.

And we will be sinless because of all the reasons I stated in my first sentence. Read instead 2 Corinthians 5:21 :
God made HIM (Jesus) who knew NO SIN, to BE sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Jesus took on ALL our sins and EVERYONE’S sins, and SIN, and brought all this to the cross. Believing in purgatory means you do NOT believe this.

And by HIM we have been made the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God.
Through the completed work of Jesus, we have been made right with God.

I don’t have a favorite sin. I wish they could all go away but while in our human form, I know full well they will not. But the Holy Spirit helps us and I agree with all you’ve said regarding this.

FG

 

[MT1926]

Hi MT
Thanks for such a good answer. Jesus left the Church in charge. By the time of Acts there was also a church. Churches are certainly a gjuide and the bible is somewhat difficult to read unless there is guidance. As you must surely know,judging from your knowlegdeable response the RCC did much to save Christianity in the early years since it was the only church. It did, however, change ideas and concepts as it went along and this is the part that bothers me. For instance, you must know that confession changed a few times from when Jesus ascended. Same for purgatory. It just was not in the teachings of the church Fathers.

I find it interesting how we take everything Jesus said and turn it to our advantage. Here it seems clear that Jesus not speaking allegorically. But then Protestants will take John 6 and say that eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ is an just symbolism. I like to keep an open mind. I think John 6 is literal, but I cannot understand how Mathew 5 can NOT be literal. IOW, I think It’s speaking of an actual reaction that Jesus would like a believer to have instead of being involved in a civil court. It is God’s court we are to turn to.

Thanks for getting back to me. I am going to lump the beginning and the end of this together because they kind of go together for me. This statement pretty much sums it up for me. “I find it interesting how we take everything Jesus said and turn it to our advantage.” I agree it is human nature, we always have we always will. I am a business man and it is easy to see, with my finite knowledge, that someone has to be in charge or your business is doomed to fail. This leads me to the conclusion that Jesus, with his infinite knowledge, would easily know that he had to place a physical presence in charge on earth or his Church would be doomed to fail. Now I don’t want to steer this conversation away from purgatory I just want to give you my reason why.
Matthew 16:18
18 And I tell you, you are Peter,[a] and on this rock** I will build my church, and the powers of death[c] shall not prevail against it.[d]
Now I know from my own life’s experiences that Jesus had to leave someone in charge. If not then we are free to “take everything Jesus said and turn it to our advantage.” If someone can give me evidence that Jesus left someone else in charge I am more that willing to listen.

As for the first part I am not versed enough in Church history to defend what you mention on the changes. Once I was able to accept the fact that Jesus left someone in charge I new he expected me to be obedient to her teachings. Some day I will get into the history, but for now I am here.

However, let’s see about these scriptures you posted.

I see how you take the last sentence to be understood as purgatory.
But if we need to be purified for these lesser transgressions, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed? This passage is plainly speaking of two men who are having a difficulty because they are on their way to court and Jesus is telling the believer to come to an agreement with his adversary because it would be better than being turned over to the judicial system of that time, which was the San Hedrin. Jesus is saying that if the adversary bring the believer to the judge and the judge sends the believer to the officer (the one to carry out punishment) then every last cent will have to be paid, or the correct amount of time be spent in prison before the believer is let out of prison.

So you see this as an allegory to purgatory.

ONE

As I already mentioned Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins. Purgatory is to purge the consequences of those sins, and where in the Bible does it say Jesus eliminated the consequences of our sins?

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems like you are saying Jesus is telling a story to teach the people on how to avoid prison in this life? This verse is in the center of the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus is teaching us about heaven (v20), Hell (v29), Mortal sin (v22) and venial sin (v19). With the entire sermon being about the Kingdom of Heaven being your reward (v12). Why would Jesus all of the sudden change gears and start giving the people an earthly teaching? Then switch back to a heavenly reward at the end of the sermon?
Verse 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?
Finally finishing up with Verse 48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.**

 

[frangiuliano115]

Thanks for getting back to me. I am going to lump the beginning and the end of this together because they kind of go together for me. This statement pretty much sums it up for me. “I find it interesting how we take everything Jesus said and turn it to our advantage.” I agree it is human nature, we always have we always will. I am a business man and it is easy to see, with my finite knowledge, that someone has to be in charge or your business is doomed to fail. This leads me to the conclusion that Jesus, with his infinite knowledge, would easily know that he had to place a physical presence in charge on earth or his Church would be doomed to fail. Now I don’t want to steer this conversation away from purgatory I just want to give you my reason why.
Matthew 16:18
18 And I tell you, you are Peter,[a] and on this rock** I will build my church, and the powers of death[c] shall not prevail against it.[d]
Now I know from my own life’s experiences that Jesus had to leave someone in charge. If not then we are free to “take everything Jesus said and turn it to our advantage.”** If someone can give me evidence that Jesus left someone else in charge I am more that willing to listen.

As for the first part I am not versed enough in Church history to defend what you mention on the changes. Once I was able to accept the fact that Jesus left someone in charge I new he expected me to be obedient to her teachings. Some day I will get into the history, but for now I am here.

As I already mentioned Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins. Purgatory is to purge the consequences of those sins, and where in the Bible does it say Jesus eliminated the consequences of our sins?

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems like you are saying Jesus is telling a story to teach the people on how to avoid prison in this life? This verse is in the center of the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus is teaching us about heaven (v20), Hell (v29), Mortal sin (v22) and venial sin (v19). With the entire sermon being about the Kingdom of Heaven being your reward (v12). Why would Jesus all of the sudden change gears and start giving the people an earthly teaching? Then switch back to a heavenly reward at the end of the sermon?
Verse 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?
Finally finishing up with Verse 48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

MT
I am certainly not here to take you away from any of your beliefs. Just to tell you why I cannot believe in the doctrine of purgatory.
Whether we believe it or not, praise the Lord I look forward to meeting you in heaven one day. You have a kind soul and I will not debate with you.

Let me just clarify a few thoughts so we could leave each other with no misunderstanding.

I agree with you that someone has to be in charge. How else could anything function? I do believe a church has to be in charge. I think Jesus has to come first, but the conversation would become too long. The church must have authority. I do believe, though, that one must be convinced of what he is being told. You know, not checking the brain at the door concept. Jesus said to love with all your heart, soul and mind. Mathew 22:37 He desires that we understand our faith - however, whatever understanding we can accept, that is what we will be judged on. To whom much is given, much will be required. The opposite is also true. Many have never read the bible and still believe and are saved.

Mathew 16:18 can present a problem due to Greek and, believe it or not, theologians also consider the posture of the body when Jesus was speaking. However one wants to believe Jesus’ meaning - and greater minds than ours have studied this - it doesn’t really matter. If Jesus meant that Peter was the “rock” and the church was to be built on Peter, fine. If Jesus meant HE is the “rock” and the church was to be built on HIM, is that not fine too? Jesus still, in the end, gave authority to the Apostles before ascension. So arguing that scripture is almost moot to me and becomes a mental exercise. I would like you to consider 1 Corinthians 2:11 and Colossians 1:18 However, it is of no great importance - the end is the same. Jesus is the head of the Church - this cannot be disputed. Peter may be the head of the church.

You’re in a good place MT, no problem here. You’re in the hands of God.

Yes. I believe in Mathew 5 Jesus is giving literal instructions on how to live in this life.
Do you believe the beatitudes are for this life? If you read Mathew 5 carefully, you’ll find that ALL of Jesus teachings are for this world. He is also showing us how some ideas in the Old Testament were misunderstood. “You have heard it said” " BUT I say to you."
He thus was correcting what the Israelites thought to be correct. Man always, somehow, gets his own ideas mixed up with God’s.
And yes. He is saying that if we follow these “earthly” teachings in Mathew 5 we will have our reward in heaven. And yes, that we must get along and try not to end up in court where our destiny will be decided by a human instead of by God. And that we must be perfect like our heavenly Father is perfect. I repeat, this is a goal, an ideal. Only My Father In Heaven Is Good. Mark 10:18 Jesus knew we would not be perfect!

By the way, I’d say Heaven is our reward. It’s a technical thing, but the Kingdom of Heaven starts here on earth. Those who follow the Beatitudes want to be a part of the Kingdom and promote the Kingdom. Not all can see the Kingdom, which is already here.
John 3:4-5

In Christ
FG