Your opinion on Purgatory?

[MT1926]

I agree with this and this is why we are told to “put on Christ.”
Romans 13:14
Galatians 3:27
Colossians 3:10
Colossians 1:27
1 Corinthians 15:45-49

When we die and go before God, He will not see us, our wretched self - but He will see Jesus, His Son, whom we have “put on.”

I am good with all of the verses you mentioned but your last statement confuses me. What happens if we don’t fully “put on Jesus” here on earth? Will God just ignore that part or will we need to be fully clothed after we die?

Paul tells the Romans in 13 a list of rights and wrongs for 13 verses before getting to the end of the chapter in verse 14. If we only do half of those did we still fully “put on Jesus”?

In Galatians Paul is speaking to people who were already justified (put on Jesus), through baptism, but in the rest of the text he is warning them that if they also attempt to be justified, by works of the law, they will fall from the Grace of Christ. So can we partially or fully “take off Christ”? and what happens if we do?

In Colossians 3 we see more sin which we must avoid to “put on a new self”. Once again what happens if we don’t fully avoid the long list Paul gives us in this chapter?

If we back up 4 verses from Colossians 1:27 we read 23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, . What if we aren’t perfectly stable in our faith or we shift ever so slightly to the right is Christ still fully in us? If we start to turn away from him how is he still fully in us? I know he is always present in us but Jesus tells in Matthew 5 about casting away a part of our body that sins. He would only do this if that part was lacking his presence.

At the beginning of 1 Corinthians 15 Paul says** 2 by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain.** Once again if we hold it slow are we still saved?

Now I am going to give my opinion here, not Church teaching". Even though I don’t understand how an all knowing all powerful God “will not see us, our wretched self - but He will see Jesus”. Even if I were to give in and say OK, I think the verses above show that it is near impossible to fully put on Jesus in this life, therefor we would have to fully put him on after our death. So who’s to say Purgatory isn’t just a dressing room to fully put on Jesus before being presented before God?

I agree.

Here I request intellectual honesty. Jesus had just gotten through giving instruction on how to be (present tense) “good” as He demands that we be.
As a goal - it’s obvious that this is impossible, and it’s also obvious Jesus is not speaking of the future.

I am not real sure where we are going with this verse? I think this goes along with were I was going up above. Yes it is near impossible for us to be perfect here on earth. Therefore we must be made perfect, purged, after we die in order to enter into heaven.
Can you further expand on why you are stressing that this is present and not future tense? Not sure how this would change anything. Also, I don’t see it in the text I lost count of how many times he say “they shall”. Verse 45 say “so that you may be” not that you are?

I guess you’re saying that the fire is purgatory?
The above is referring to works. Please see 1 Corinthians 3:8 - each man shall receive a reward according to his own labor.

The laborers are God’s bldg. verse 9
Paul has laid the foundation - Jesus - and another builds verse 10
(you know, one tills, one plants, one waters, etc.)

Jesus Christ is the only foundation verse 11
A good builder will use gold, silver and precious stones (these will not burn in fire)
Some will build with wood, hay, stubble (these will burn in fire)
All men’s works will be judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ verse 13
(the person is already saved, but his WORKS will be judged.
The fire is referring to God’s Word - the standard by which all is judged.
This is speaking to REWARDS. The bible does speak about rewards i heaven but no one seems to know what they could be.

I’m not going to disagree with what you are saying but I have a few questions.

First, what are sins? They are bad works:
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy,[a] drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Second, how do you separate the man from his works? When we get there are we sitting on the left and our adultery, lies or theft are sitting on the right? How do you judge the sin of adultery without an adulterer?

Third, I have no objections to the Judgement seat of Christ, but my question is where is this? The Bible tells us it cannot be heaven because there are imperfections that need to be burned up and we both agree that “nothing unclean shall enter it”. And it cannot be hell because hell is a one way trip so no one would be able to be saved. So it must be a place just before the entrance to heaven which Catholics have termed “Purgatory”.

Finally, verse 14 and 15 speaks of a reward or a loss after being tested in fire. If the man is already saved and the work is the only thing to go through the fire why does the verse specifically say “though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”? If the man was already saved before the fire why would St. Paul end the verse with a contradiction?

 

[MT1926]

THREE
I’m sorry. I don’t understand.

Verse 6 Paul is at home in the body, but he is absent from the Lord.
Paul is alive . so he cannot be with the Lord.

verse 8 Paul would rather be absent from the body (dead) and be present with the Lord.

Which infers that To Be Absent From The Body, Is To Be Present With The Lord.

Please clarify better if you don’t agree with me. it seems simple enough.

Thanks for the pleasant conversation.

FG
I’m sorry this is so long!

Basically, I was pointing out that this is not what the text says. Paul uses that word rather to point out that there are no guarantees. Which is why he follows with verses 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.
Basically:
Matthew 7:21
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

I apologize if I am seeming nit picky but when I hear “Which infers that To Be Absent From The Body, Is To Be Present With The Lord.” It just comes across as all you have to do is believe and once you die you are automatically present with the Lord. I think Matthew 7:21 says there is a bit more we need to do.

Thanks for the dialogue. I learn a lot more this way.

 

[MT1926]

MT
I am certainly not here to take you away from any of your beliefs. Just to tell you why I cannot believe in the doctrine of purgatory.
Whether we believe it or not, praise the Lord I look forward to meeting you in heaven one day. You have a kind soul and I will not debate with you.

Thanks for the response. I appreciate your thoughts on this. I look forward to seeing you there as well.

PS: I will be the guy in the corner with a new head of hair.

You’re in a good place MT, no problem here. You’re in the hands of God.

Thank you for the kind words. I truly enjoyed this open dialogue, one of the bests I have had so far on CAF.

Yes. I believe in Mathew 5 Jesus is giving literal instructions on how to live in this life.
Do you believe the beatitudes are for this life? If you read Mathew 5 carefully, you’ll find that ALL of Jesus teachings are for this world. He is also showing us how some ideas in the Old Testament were misunderstood. “You have heard it said” " BUT I say to you."
He thus was correcting what the Israelites thought to be correct. Man always, somehow, gets his own ideas mixed up with God’s.
And yes. He is saying that if we follow these “earthly” teachings in Mathew 5 we will have our reward in heaven. And yes, that we must get along and try not to end up in court where our destiny will be decided by a human instead of by God. And that we must be perfect like our heavenly Father is perfect. I repeat, this is a goal, an ideal. Only My Father In Heaven Is Good. Mark 10:18 Jesus knew we would not be perfect!

By the way, I’d say Heaven is our reward. It’s a technical thing, but the Kingdom of Heaven starts here on earth. Those who follow the Beatitudes want to be a part of the Kingdom and promote the Kingdom. Not all can see the Kingdom, which is already here.
John 3:4-5

In Christ
FG

I can agree and see where you are coming from with the beatitudes are for this life.

I can also agree to your statement: “He is saying that if we follow these “earthly” teachings in Mathew 5 we will have our reward in heaven.”

However, as I read carefully I see Jesus telling us how to live in this world, but he also speaking of the reward or punishment being in the next world.

Taking the paragraph in question. Jesus starts with:
21 “You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’
This world action and this world judgement but is also a next world judgement.

Then he switches to:

22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother** shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults[c] his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell[d] of fire.
This world actions however these actions are not punishable in this world only the next. We have no earthly judgement for anger or councils that preside over insults or an earthly hell for calling someone a fool.

23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
This world action, but the sacrifice would be for a next world reward.

25 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
Finally, Jesus combines the 2 to show that you have a choice. 25 Is a this world action but if you make friends with the accuser you have a next world reward. 26 If you do not make friends from the this world action you will be handed over for a next world punishment.

Jesus starts with an example that is punishable here on earth and also punishable in heaven. He goes on with 2 examples that are not thought of here on earth but tells us they are just as punishable in heaven. The context of the first 3 verses comes together and Jesus brings his teaching full circle, just like we do every day, by taking an earthly example of a prison and letting us know we have a choice to “Make friend quickly” on your way to heaven to receive your reward in the kingdom of heaven. Or you will be handed over to the judge (the Judgement seat of Christ or Purgatory, your choice) and you will remain there until you pay every last penalty for you punishment.

That is what I see when I read the text let me know what you think.

God Bless**

 

[frangiuliano115]

I am good with all of the verses you mentioned but your last statement confuses me. What happens if we don’t fully “put on Jesus” here on earth? Will God just ignore that part or will we need to be fully clothed after we die?

Hi Mt
I’m afraid I’m not as good at this as you are! I’m loosing track of our previous converstaion…
This is the problem with teachings based on sins and forgiveness instead of teachings based on trusting Jesus to save us. How could you not fully put on Jesus? You either have Him on OR you have Him off. You will be fully clothed after death, if this is what you wish. Did we discuss the Wedding Banquet in Mathew? I think not. Some were thrown out where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth because they were not properly dressed. What do we suppose being properly dressed means? WEARING Jesus! He is the proper clothing for the coming Wedding Banquet.

Paul tells the Romans in 13 a list of rights and wrongs for 13 verses before getting to the end of the chapter in verse 14. If we only do half of those did we still fully “put on Jesus”?

In Galatians Paul is speaking to people who were already justified (put on Jesus), through baptism, but in the rest of the text he is warning them that if they also attempt to be justified, by works of the law, they will fall from the Grace of Christ. So can we partially or fully “take off Christ”? and what happens if we do?

MT, you’ve totally missed the point of this scripture. I don’t even have to turn to it.
Paul is warning them that if they attempt to be justified BY WORKS they will FALL FROM GRACE. In Catholicism (and in Catholicism only) we get justified at baptism. Okay. But then we have to ACCEPT our baptism at some point - in a mature and conscious manner. But Paul is speaking of correct justification. Justification happens when we accept God and he justifies us of all our previous sins. This is referring to adults - adults were becoming believers back then. So they KNEW what they were doing. He’s saying that we are justified by FAITH and not by WORKS.

We cannot PARTIALLY put on Chrst. He’s either on or off. Even if He’s on we will still sin. We are still in the flesh. The point (to make it simple so this doesn’t go on forever) is that God will consider His Son and not US. You know in the Mass during consecration
and the priest says: Look Not On Our Sin, But On The Faith Of Your Church - it’s the same idea.

In Colossians 3 we see more sin which we must avoid to “put on a new self”. Once again what happens if we don’t fully avoid the long list Paul gives us in this chapter?

You already ARE new self when you accept Christianity and God and Jesus. You will NEVER avoid all sin. Paul is saying how a Christian is to live. You don’t put on the new self TO AVOID sin, you AVOID SIN by putting on the new self.

It’s like: Do you get perfect and then come to God
OR
Do you come to God and THEN get perfecti?
First you put on the new self - and THEN you avoid sin and the sin you don’t avoid (because not sinning is impossible) will be covered, or handled, by Christ.

If we back up 4 verses from Colossians 1:27 we read 23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, . What if we aren’t perfectly stable in our faith or we shift ever so slightly to the right is Christ still fully in us? If we start to turn away from him how is he still fully in us? I know he is always present in us but Jesus tells in Matthew 5 about casting away a part of our body that sins. He would only do this if that part was lacking his presence.

At the beginning of 1 Corinthians 15 Paul says** 2 by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain.** Once again if we hold it slow are we still saved?

Important points. YES! You must continue in your belief. I never said you cannot lose your salvation. It’s a matter of the WILL to want it and to remain near to Christ. How do you hold it slow?? If I’m holding a glass, I’m holding it. By holding it slow, do you mean I let it go and it falls to the ground? Then yes, if I let it go, I lose my salvation because I have not held on to it. However, I do not understand how you could hold on to it “slow.”

Now I am going to give my opinion here, not Church teaching". Even though I don’t understand how an all knowing all powerful God “will not see us, our wretched self - but He will see Jesus”. Even if I were to give in and say OK, I think the verses above show that it is near impossible to fully put on Jesus in this life, therefor we would have to fully put him on after our death. So who’s to say Purgatory isn’t just a dressing room to fully put on Jesus before being presented before God?

This is amusing!
Christ must be put on in THIS life. It’s too late after.

I am not real sure where we are going with this verse? I think this goes along with were I was going up above. Yes it is near impossible for us to be perfect here on earth. Therefore we must be made perfect, purged, after we die in order to enter into heaven.
Can you further expand on why you are stressing that this is present and not future tense? Not sure how this would change anything. Also, I don’t see it in the text I lost count of how many times he say “they shall”. Verse 45 say “so that you may be” not that you are?

I’m sorry, I’ve lost the scripture reading. This is pretty new to me.
BUT, we are made perfect through Christ, now, in our spirit.
Romans 3:24
Isaiah 61:10
Romans 4:6
Romans 8:3-6 even further on… check out verse 15!
Romans 8.1
2 Corinthians 5:17.19

Please remind me of the scripture for your question re present and not future verses.

ONE

 

[frangiuliano115]

TWO

I’m not going to disagree with what you are saying but I have a few questions.

First, what are sins? They are bad works:
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy,[a] drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Second, how do you separate the man from his works? When we get there are we sitting on the left and our adultery, lies or theft are sitting on the right? How do you judge the sin of adultery without an adulterer?

Third, I have no objections to the Judgement seat of Christ, but my question is where is this? The Bible tells us it cannot be heaven because there are imperfections that need to be burned up and we both agree that “nothing unclean shall enter it”. And it cannot be hell because hell is a one way trip so no one would be able to be saved. So it must be a place just before the entrance to heaven which Catholics have termed “Purgatory”.

Sin: Greek meaning of sin as used in the N.T. : Missing the mark. Anything we do that is not God’s will is missing the mark. I’m afraid to say that we sin many more times than we care to admit. Galatians 5:19-21 How could one love Jesus and do these things? Scripture is clear and no comment is necessary.

How am I separating man from his works? I don’t understand how you come to this conclusion. We are body, soul and spirit. One man. No separation. Maybe I made some comment as to how our flesh is separate from our spirit? Sorry. Our flesh in the bible means the natural man, right? And our spirit is that which hungers for God. They ARE separate, but together.

Where is the Judgement Seat of Christ.
See 2 Corinthians 5:10
The Judgement seat of Christ is for believers. They are already saved. The judgement is for rewards - which I will not be able to tell you what they are. We will be judged by our deeds but only in relation to rewards.

This cannot be purgatory either. Purgatory is not a place of judgement. Those there, by Catholic theology have already been judged. For heaven. The judging has already taken place. Purgatory is associated with heaven: there are two destinations, not three.

No. Catholic theology teaches that purgatory is necessary to cleanse away our sins that remain. And we all will have them upon death. If I have to get my sins cleansed somewhere, it means Jesus’ sacrifice was not sufficient to do the cleansing. In the O.T. were sacrifices not offered to cleanse of sin? In Exodus 12 were the lambs not slaughtered and the blood swiped around the door frame to PROTECT the inhabitants from the angel of death? Can the blood of Jesus, the perfect Lamb of God, not have the same capabilities?

Finally, verse 14 and 15 speaks of a reward or a loss after being tested in fire. If the man is already saved and the work is the only thing to go through the fire why does the verse specifically say “though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”? If the man was already saved before the fire why would St. Paul end the verse with a contradiction?

Here it would be good to know some Greek. Would you be willing to do some study on this so you don’t have to take my word for it?
There are different types of fire spoken of in the bible which refer to different concepts.

Here’s how I could help:

It is not a literal fire, but a figurative fire that will try men. It is spoken of in Malachi 3:1-3;

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord (Jesus), whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith YHWH of hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
Mal 3:3 And he (Jesus) shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver (by using a figurative fire of tribulation, affliction, chastening, etc): and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto YHWH an offering in righteousness.

The “work” in 1 Co 3:13 is not material things like buildings, etc., but things such as greed, love, idolatry, walking in the Spirit, etc.)
and the word “fire” in 1 Co 3:15 (the second word fire - even here each word fire means two different things) is referring to Jesus as the purifier. “puri” the ability of Jesus to purify.

MT
You certainly ask interesting questions!
I refer to my overall concept: Either Jesus saves us comletely or we’re depending on ourselves! May It Never Be!

FG

 

[frangiuliano115]

Basically, I was pointing out that this is not what the text says. Paul uses that word rather to point out that there are no guarantees. Which is why he follows with verses 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.
Basically:
Matthew 7:21
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

I apologize if I am seeming nit picky but when I hear “Which infers that To Be Absent From The Body, Is To Be Present With The Lord.” It just comes across as all you have to do is believe and once you die you are automatically present with the Lord. I think Matthew 7:21 says there is a bit more we need to do.

Thanks for the dialogue. I learn a lot more this way.

Okay.
I’m not sure we agree on the verse and I have to leave soon.
BUT
We definitely agree that there is more to do than just believe.
You must feel this way about the verse from a preconceived notion from other Christians and probably one I don’t agree with…

FG

 

[frangiuliano115]

Thanks for the response. I appreciate your thoughts on this. I look forward to seeing you there as well.

PS: I will be the guy in the corner with a new head of hair.

Thank you for the kind words. I truly enjoyed this open dialogue, one of the bests I have had so far on CAF.

I can agree and see where you are coming from with the beatitudes are for this life.

I can also agree to your statement: “He is saying that if we follow these “earthly” teachings in Mathew 5 we will have our reward in heaven.”

However, as I read carefully I see Jesus telling us how to live in this world, but he also speaking of the reward or punishment being in the next world.

Taking the paragraph in question. Jesus starts with:
21 “You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’
This world action and this world judgement but is also a next world judgement.

Then he switches to:

22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother** shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults[c] his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell[d] of fire.
This world actions however these actions are not punishable in this world only the next. We have no earthly judgement for anger or councils that preside over insults or an earthly hell for calling someone a fool.

23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
This world action, but the sacrifice would be for a next world reward.

25 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
Finally, Jesus combines the 2 to show that you have a choice. 25 Is a this world action but if you make friends with the accuser you have a next world reward. 26 If you do not make friends from the this world action you will be handed over for a next world punishment.

Jesus starts with an example that is punishable here on earth and also punishable in heaven. He goes on with 2 examples that are not thought of here on earth but tells us they are just as punishable in heaven. The context of the first 3 verses comes together and Jesus brings his teaching full circle, just like we do every day, by taking an earthly example of a prison and letting us know we have a choice to “Make friend quickly” on your way to heaven to receive your reward in the kingdom of heaven. Or you will be handed over to the judge (the Judgement seat of Christ or Purgatory, your choice) and you will remain there until you pay every last penalty for you punishment.

That is what I see when I read the text let me know what you think.

God Bless**
I must go. How to remember to answer to this?
Could you mention this post in one of your replies to me?
Maybe the number up on top?

Speaking of God is always good!

Lata…
FG

 

[MT1926]

I don’t want to hijack your response to another poster but you brought some questions to my mind that I am hoping you could further clarify. I am always looking for understanding.

And we will be sinless because of all the reasons I stated in my first sentence. Read instead 2 Corinthians 5:21 :
God made HIM (Jesus) who knew NO SIN, to BE sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

I am not disagreeing with your response and agree that Jesus paid the price for our sins. The part I don’t understand is when does this occur? I have been told Jesus paid the price for all our sins past, present and future. I can agree with this because Jesus sacrifice is in all time and ever present. But the thing I don’t understand is how do we become sinless, to enter into heaven, if we have a sin that we did not confess?

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

From what I understand the Catholic perspective is a non mortal sin that is not confessed will be purged from our soul after death in Purgatory. From the non-Catholic perspective where does this occur? John says we will be made righteous (sinless) if we confess our sins. Since we agree that no sin can enter into heaven…If there is no Purgatory where is the non-confessed sin cleansed?

Jesus took on ALL our sins and EVERYONE’S sins, and SIN, and brought all this to the cross. Believing in purgatory means you do NOT believe this.

I don’t see how believing in purgatory contradicts the fact that Jesus took on all of our sins. Let’s not rehash about Purgatory purging us of the punishment of sins. Why can’t purgatory be considered the means by which Jesus purges us of the sins we failed to confess? As I asked earlier what happens to these. Also, if we (not sure if this is the correct term to use but) literally believe “Jesus took on ALL our sins and EVERYONE’S sins, and SIN, and brought all this to the cross” To mean at that very moment everyone’s sins were forgiven and there are no other punishments for our sins. Wouldn’t “Everyone’s sins” imply even non believers? Does this include sins not confessed?

And by HIM we have been made the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God.
Through the completed work of Jesus, we have been made right with God.

I don’t have a favorite sin. I wish they could all go away but while in our human form, I know full well they will not. But the Holy Spirit helps us and I agree with all you’ve said regarding this.

FG

I believe Jesus work has been completed and there is nothing else HE needs to do to make us Righteous. But obviously something has to happen between this world and the next because for most of us we are not going to be righteous on the day of our death.

A thought just came to mind while I was typing and I know it is not Biblical, but since as I stated earlier "I can agree with this because Jesus sacrifice is in all time and ever present. " Seeing that God is omnipresent and Jesus 2000 year old sacrifice on the cross is once and for all. Wouldn’t this same sacrifice still be covering our sins while we are in Purgatory as well. Not sure if I am getting to confusing here. But temporally speaking if Jesus died to forgive a sin we have yet to commit, how do we know this forgiveness doesn’t continue immediately after our death for a sin we failed to confess or one we committed at the split second of our death?

 

[CJMartel]

I was raised Catholic and then strayed. I went to an Episcopal church, then left when the church leadership decided to perform “alternative lifestyle marriages”, now I am attending a High Episcopal church in Providence RI. While taking a course through the Episcopal church, EFM, Education for Ministry, I was told that purgatory was an “invention” of Pope Gregory to make money on the rich deceased, unfortunately, at the time, I bought it. To make a long story short I am now with a High Episcopal church that does Rosaries and celebrates EVERY Catholic holiday AND tradition. I feel as if the blinders came off. Purgatory makes perfect sense, as in common sense, and I berate myself for being so foolish as to believe the lies I was told.

 

[MT1926]

I was raised Catholic and then strayed. I went to an Episcopal church, then left when the church leadership decided to perform “alternative lifestyle marriages”, now I am attending a High Episcopal church in Providence RI. While taking a course through the Episcopal church, EFM, Education for Ministry, I was told that purgatory was an “invention” of Pope Gregory to make money on the rich deceased, unfortunately, at the time, I bought it. To make a long story short I am now with a High Episcopal church that does Rosaries and celebrates EVERY Catholic holiday AND tradition. I feel as if the blinders came off. Purgatory makes perfect sense, as in common sense, and I berate myself for being so foolish as to believe the lies I was told.

Welcome CJ, you’ve come to the right place. Lots of great discussions and a great place to learn about others and bring us all closer to God.

Thanks for the response.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Thanks for the response. I appreciate your thoughts on this. I look forward to seeing you there as well.

PS: I will be the guy in the corner with a new head of hair.

Thank you for the kind words. I truly enjoyed this open dialogue, one of the bests I have had so far on CAF.

I’ll be in the corner with 15 pounds off!
In fact, I think we’ll be perfect!
And, we’ll understand all this stuff…
And it won’t matter who was right!

In fact, I like discussion but will stop when it turns to argument.

I can agree and see where you are coming from with the beatitudes are for this life.

I can also agree to your statement: “He is saying that if we follow these “earthly” teachings in Mathew 5 we will have our reward in heaven.”

However, as I read carefully I see Jesus telling us how to live in this world, but he also speaking of the reward or punishment being in the next world.

Taking the paragraph in question. Jesus starts with:
21 “You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’
This world action and this world judgement but is also a next world judgement.

Then he switches to:

22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother** shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults[c] his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell[d] of fire.
This world actions however these actions are not punishable in this world only the next. We have no earthly judgement for anger or councils that preside over insults or an earthly hell for calling someone a fool.**
The reward is certainly in the next life. Let’s also confirm that we enjoy rewards here too. God helps to give us HIS peace. He helps us in times of trouble with His comfort.
Okay.
Verse 22 Whoever is angry with his brother is in danger of judgement. Because it’s like killing a brother, as Jesus had already said.
Deuteronomy 16:18 sets up judges in the O.T. (verse 21)
The word Raca in verse 22 means Empty Fellow “rac” to be empty, a worthless fellow. So these words of murderous hatred will be judged by the council, or the Sanhedrin.
But he who calls his brother “fool” Which would be Moreh or Marah, to “rebel” or to rebel against God in this case is in danger of being killed by the Sanhedrin by stoning. But, yes, we can also infer that judgement will be for the afterlife. It’s a sin to rebel against God.

23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
This world action, but the sacrifice would be for a next world reward.

I’m not sure which sacrifice you’re referring to. If you mean the gift you are bringing to the altar, it just means that the gift will not be acceptable while you are in sin - mad at your brother.

25 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
Finally, Jesus combines the 2 to show that you have a choice. 25 Is a this world action but if you make friends with the accuser you have a next world reward. 26 If you do not make friends from the this world action you will be handed over for a next world punishment.

Jesus starts with an example that is punishable here on earth and also punishable in heaven. He goes on with 2 examples that are not thought of here on earth but tells us they are just as punishable in heaven. The context of the first 3 verses comes together and Jesus brings his teaching full circle, just like we do every day, by taking an earthly example of a prison and letting us know we have a choice to “Make friend quickly” on your way to heaven to receive your reward in the kingdom of heaven. Or you will be handed over to the judge (the Judgement seat of Christ or Purgatory, your choice) and you will remain there until you pay every last penalty for you punishment.

That is what I see when I read the text let me know what you think.

I understand fully that the above has to be seen this way if you’re to get the idea of purgatory out of it. But I see every single thing Jesus is speaking about in Mathew 5 as being literal. You know, You Are The Salt Of The Earth, If You Look Upon A Woman…, Love your enemies as you love your friends, etc.

Now, of course, all of the above will have repercussions in the afterlife if not followed, but Jesus is speaking of real events. I believe He means verses 22.-26 literally.
If the person was put in jail he certainly would not be released till every penny was paid.

We could take literal passages and apply them spiritually - this is okay to do. But other concepts or scripture has to be able to be applied. To apply this spiritually is a jump.
One has to already believe in purgatory to see this spiritually.

We can only express our opinions. I believe we’re both adult people and I have no hope of changing your mind. I would like to say that the idea that one doesn’t have to spend time there is a very freeing experience and makes one trust Jesus even more.

FG

 

[MT1926]

Okay.
I’m not sure we agree on the verse and I have to leave soon.
BUT
We definitely agree that there is more to do than just believe.
You must feel this way about the verse from a preconceived notion from other Christians and probably one I don’t agree with…

FG

Yes you are correct, I apologize for jumping to conclusions. 2 Corinthians is the verse that I always get hit with by the once saved always saved crowd, that believe if you even attempt to lift a finger you deny Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. It is tiring when someone beats you down with Bible verses and gives no response when I ask why. I appreciate your patience in answering my questions. I think by your statement “We definitely agree that there is more to do than just believe.” shows that we are on the same page of the final outcome of what Paul is saying. We just don’t agree 100% on how we get to that final outcome.

 

[frangiuliano115]

I don’t want to hijack your response to another poster but you brought some questions to my mind that I am hoping you could further clarify. I am always looking for understanding.

I am not disagreeing with your response and agree that Jesus paid the price for our sins. The part I don’t understand is when does this occur? I have been told Jesus paid the price for all our sins past, present and future. I can agree with this because Jesus sacrifice is in all time and ever present. But the thing I don’t understand is how do we become sinless, to enter into heaven, if we have a sin that we did not confess?

MT
When does this occur? it occurs the moment you convert, the moment you make up your mind you want to be on God’s side, the moment you accept Jesus as your Savior and decide to follow Him and become His disciple, it happens when you become “born again” as Protestants would call it and as Jesus calls it in John 3:3 (maybe not in your version - check more than one when studying, of course)

We don’t become sinless MT. It’s not possible. This is the crux of my entire explanation to you. This is not some weird idea of mine, BTW, but is accepted mainline theology.
Instead of depending on confession (to a priest - a whole different story) and then having to spend some time in purgatory to get purified before we could enter heaven, the bible teaches that we’re to depend on God for our salvation.
Ezekiel 34:11
Jeremiah 31:31-34

BTW, I assume you know that the Jeremiah passage is where we get The New and Everlasting Covenant from.

IOW, you won’t be SINLESS when you die. But when you appear before God, he’ll see His Son’s righteousness in you and not yours. We spoke about this before. I know it’s not easy to understand the first time around This, to me, makes more sense (and is more biblical) than sinning, confessing, sinning, confessing and round and round we go. You would actually be able to REST. Mathew 11:28-30 Come To Me All Ye Who Labor… You Shall Find Rest For Your Soul…"

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

From what I understand the Catholic perspective is a non mortal sin that is not confessed will be purged from our soul after death in Purgatory. From the non-Catholic perspective where does this occur? John says we will be made righteous (sinless) if we confess our sins. Since we agree that no sin can enter into heaven…If there is no Purgatory where is the non-confessed sin cleansed?

Yes. MT, John said we are to confess our sins. But to whom? I’d rather not go there. You said you were interested in studying how confession developed. You could do that. I don’t wish to discuss this because it’s YOUR conscience by which God will judge you and I do not want to detract you in any way. Purgatory is a different story. It’s a matter of believing whether or not it exists and has nothing to do with our spiritual well-being.

If there is no purgatory when is the non-confessed sin cleansed?
The moment you commit it and are sorry for it and ask God for forgiveness. It’s Jesus who is protecting you, remember?

ONE

 

[frangiuliano115]

TWO

I don’t see how believing in purgatory contradicts the fact that Jesus took on all of our sins. Let’s not rehash about Purgatory purging us of the punishment of sins. Why can’t purgatory be considered the means by which Jesus purges us of the sins we failed to confess? As I asked earlier what happens to these. Also, if we (not sure if this is the correct term to use but) literally believe “Jesus took on ALL our sins and EVERYONE’S sins, and SIN, and brought all this to the cross” To mean at that very moment everyone’s sins were forgiven and there are no other punishments for our sins. Wouldn’t “Everyone’s sins” imply even non believers? Does this include sins not confessed?

Jesus took on EVERYONE’S sins. But His sacrifice has to be accepted, right?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life."
God offers, but there has to be a response. Catholics and Protestants believe this.
Sins have to be confessed. To God. Or to a priest if that’s what you sincerely believe.
One must be sorry. One cannot be flagrant about sin. God will not be mocked. If you forgot to “confess” a sin, but you are sorry, God is just and he always considers the heart - not whether or not you got to confess the sin. But again, God will not be mocked.
If you are in good relationship with Him and are walking with Him, I’m sure you would be sorry for any sin.

The fact that you don’t understand how believing in purgatory Jesus taking on our sins is understandable. You’ve been taught all your life that we sin and we confess and what we don’t confess needs to be purged. It’s a whole different concept. You know what would be interesting? To read some of the N.T. again with this new idea. Romans, Corinthians, Colossians, Hebrews - wow Hebrews, speak about confessing!

Let me make very clear that I’m not condemning what you believe. I’m not here to tell you you’re lost. I hope you understand this because it’s not what I believe.

I believe Jesus work has been completed and there is nothing else HE needs to do to make us Righteous. But obviously something has to happen between this world and the next because for most of us we are not going to be righteous on the day of our death.

You said the right thing and then you changed it!
The first sentence is correct.
The next isn’t. Do you see that you’re contradicting yourself?
First you said that Jesus work is completed and there is nothng else HE CAN DO TO MAKE US RIGHTEOUS.
But then you continued on to say that we are not going to be righteous on the day of our death. WHY NOT? You had just stated that JESUS WAS MAKING YOU RIGHTEOUS!
So, again, it’s HIS righteousness you’re depending on - not your own.

A thought just came to mind while I was typing and I know it is not Biblical, but since as I stated earlier "I can agree with this because Jesus sacrifice is in all time and ever present. " Seeing that God is omnipresent and Jesus 2000 year old sacrifice on the cross is once and for all. Wouldn’t this same sacrifice still be covering our sins while we are in Purgatory as well. Not sure if I am getting to confusing here. But temporally speaking if Jesus died to forgive a sin we have yet to commit, how do we know this forgiveness doesn’t continue immediately after our death for a sin we failed to confess or one we committed at the split second of our death?

Interesting thought. The Holy Spirit does work in mysterious ways!
You have said it, as Jesus said to Caiphas.
Jesus covers ALL sin, past, present and future.
So if He covers all sin, including at the precise time you are in purgatory, why would you have to go to purgatory if He died for your sins even when you’re there?
WHAT are you doing there if He died to forgive your sins?

FG

 

[frangiuliano115]

Yes you are correct, I apologize for jumping to conclusions. 2 Corinthians is the verse that I always get hit with by the once saved always saved crowd, that believe if you even attempt to lift a finger you deny Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. It is tiring when someone beats you down with Bible verses and gives no response when I ask why. I appreciate your patience in answering my questions. I think by your statement “We definitely agree that there is more to do than just believe.” shows that we are on the same page of the final outcome of what Paul is saying. We just don’t agree 100% on how we get to that final outcome.

Yes. Well, as long as we get to that final outcome!

Know what? Even the OSAS crowd will get to heaven, because I don’t believe it’s our doctrine that will save us, but the Lord. Agree?

And I have some advice regarding OSAS. if you care to know it, just ask. I have one counterpoint for them that they could never answer. Do you realize that if OSAS is true, it would mean we have no free will? Do you agree on that?

Plus, I agree with you. We’ve been discussing each scripture individually. If we start just throwing verses at each other, it’s a waste of time.

No apologies necessary! You’re a nice person.


FG

 

[MT1926]

In fact, I like discussion but will stop when it turns to argument.

Agreed it is often a turn off when someone says this is how it is. Or starts quoting something that is not common ground for both of us in the dialogue. I try my best not to come off as argumentative, however, sometimes this is difficult by letter. That is why I tend to ask so many questions. I try my best to try to learn the others view point. To learn about the person your speaking with is a win win. To just argue for the sake of getting your point across is a losing battle.

I understand fully that the above has to be seen this way if you’re to get the idea of purgatory out of it. But I see every single thing Jesus is speaking about in Mathew 5 as being literal.

We can only express our opinions. I believe we’re both adult people and I have no hope of changing your mind. I would like to say that the idea that one doesn’t have to spend time there is a very freeing experience and makes one trust Jesus even more.
FG

I think you hit the nail on the head here. We all come to the table with our own preconceived opinions. Whether they are right or wrong, as you said we will both find out in heaven. I also have no hope of changing your mind, but I do enjoy understanding why we differ.

 

[MT1926]

Thanks for all of the insight Fran. I think we might have come full circle on this topic. Just wanted to clear up a couple things I think I missed, which you are welcome to respond to.

This is the problem with teachings based on sins and forgiveness instead of teachings based on trusting Jesus to save us. How could you not fully put on Jesus? You either have Him on OR you have Him off.

Maybe your first sentence is why I have such a hard time understanding the second. I think we are the ones that take Jesus off with our sins, but I agree he never leaves us. Us ignoring or forgetting he is there, when we sin, is what I mean by not fully putting on Jesus. I don’t think I have a problem with trusting Jesus, I have taking some pretty huge leaps of Faith in my life. I think it is more about becoming worthy of what he has given me and will give me in the next life. I know some will say all you have to do is ask/believe, but when you had to work for everything you have in your life that is a hard concept to grasp.

I would like to say that the idea that one doesn’t have to spend time there is a very freeing experience and makes one trust Jesus even more.
FG

Skipped this one. I just wanted to say that I am the exact opposite. Knowing that Jesus will cleanse me, of anything that I am not aware of, in Purgatory before the eternal feast is a freeing experience and makes me trust that he loves me even more. It seems we both know the destination, we are just on different paths. I guess if I’m wrong I can just plead being an infallible human. I’m sure Jesus will cover that sin as well.

IOW, you won’t be SINLESS when you die. But when you appear before God, he’ll see His Son’s righteousness in you and not yours. We spoke about this before. I know it’s not easy to understand the first time around.

If there is no purgatory when is the non-confessed sin cleansed?
The moment you commit it and are sorry for it and ask God for forgiveness. It’s Jesus who is protecting you, remember?
ONE

I think I will always have a hard time wrapping my brain around this. I can understand the meaning of it but I lose focus when I come to non-confessed sins. Because this is a sin that you might not have been sorry for or asked forgiveness for. In my mind it just makes it sound like Jesus is willing to shield you from God, with no punishment, the fact that you were sorry for cheating on your wife 40 times, because you repented, but he is not willing to shield you because you couldn’t find it in yourself to forgive your neighbor and rebuild your relationship with the neighbor when he let his dog dig up your prize rose bushes.

Let me make very clear that I’m not condemning what you believe. I’m not here to tell you you’re lost. I hope you understand this because it’s not what I believe.

Perfectly clear, you have treated me with much respect these past days. I do not condemn you for your beliefs either, only God will judge us. I do however, enjoy learning your thought process.

But then you continued on to say that we are not going to be righteous on the day of our death. WHY NOT? You had just stated that JESUS WAS MAKING YOU RIGHTEOUS!
So, again, it’s HIS righteousness you’re depending on - not your own.

I do believe Jesus makes us righteous, but I also believe every time we sin we walk away from that righteousness. I know I can’t make myself righteous, but I do a pretty good job of making myself unrighteous on occasion.

So if He covers all sin, including at the precise time you are in purgatory, why would you have to go to purgatory if He died for your sins even when you’re there?
WHAT are you doing there if He died to forgive your sins?
FG

I was referring to the non-confessed sins which I still don’t understand what happens to them since we never new of them or were not sorry about what we did. If we weren’t sorry in this life does Jesus point out our fault and give us a chance to be sorry in the next?

Know what? Even the OSAS crowd will get to heaven, because I don’t believe it’s our doctrine that will save us, but the Lord. Agree?FG

Oh I’m sure just like the rest of us, some will some won’t.

And I have some advice regarding OSAS. if you care to know it, just ask. I have one counterpoint for them that they could never answer. Do you realize that if OSAS is true, it would mean we have no free will? Do you agree on that?
FG

The whole OSAS concept makes my head spin. I would appreciate any advice you could give. But I think it would be best to PM me so we don’t start a new topic on this thread.

 

[thecolorsblend]

No need to quote the CCC, I know it well. I would like to say that when speaking to a non-Catholic, the CCC is of no use - you must always use the bible as MT1926 did.

When someone misunderstands what Catholics believe, quoting the CCC is extremely helpful. For example, many non-Catholics seem to labor under the notion that Purgatory is some kind of “second chance”. It seems to not matter how many times they are corrected about this. The misconception continues. If my intention is to clarify Church teachings, I must quote those teachings to make my point. The CCC, being a systematic reference guide for many of the Church’s teachings, is one of the more desirable sources to use in that endeavor.

Further, why should I restrict my sources to only the Bible? Sola Scriptura is your limitation; not mine. Thus I will not be so constrained and limited.

The confusion is not in the word, Colorsblend. The confusion lies in this:
Jesus died as an atonement, as a sacrifice, as a redemption.
Jesus died so we could go to heaven to be with God.
A heavy price was paid for us to get there.
Did you know that you couldn’t even go to heaven before Jesus died? In not, look into it.

With respect, I don’t need to be talked down to. I’d appreciate it you would not Protestantsplain this to me.

Believing in that we have to purge our sins, means that we do not believe that Jesus finished His work.

No. It doesn’t. This indicates you possibly didn’t analyze my quotation from the CCC. Indeed you might not have even really considered what I posted.

Salvation is offered through the saving work of Our Lord’s death on the cross. Catholics readily acknowledge this.

However, we as people still have attachments to transgress God’s law. Forgiven or not, we still fundamentally have that as our problem. We have forgiveness for transgressions which we have committed… but forgiveness doesn’t really address the human predilection to transgress in the first place.

In Heaven, we will not be inclined to commit transgressions. Our desires will be in direct alignment with God’s standards. But right now many of us are still inclined to commit transgressions. We still have a sin nature. Ergo at some point we must undergo a pretty radical transformation so as to be ready to enter God’s kingdom, at which point we will be what God originally intended us to be.

That is the purpose of Purgatory.

No offense but this looks to be a reduction of the complicated issue of purification to a simplistic, binary argument of “saved” or “not saved”. Well, purification isn’t about being saved. Indeed, that is already assumed for one in Purgatory. At issue is the believer’s attachment to sin. Their sin nature must be removed. The believer must have his tendency toward sin taken away. “Forgiveness” by itself does not achieve that.

Again, it’s not an issue of forgiveness for transgressions. It’s about the removal of the tendency to commit said transgressions, which is an entirely different proposition. Things that are different are not the same.

 

[frangiuliano115]

When someone misunderstands what Catholics believe, quoting the CCC is extremely helpful. For example, many non-Catholics seem to labor under the notion that Purgatory is some kind of “second chance”. It seems to not matter how many times they are corrected about this. The misconception continues. If my intention is to clarify Church teachings, I must quote those teachings to make my point. The CCC, being a systematic reference guide for many of the Church’s teachings, is one of the more desirable sources to use in that endeavor.

Further, why should I restrict my sources to only the Bible? Sola Scriptura is your limitation; not mine. Thus I will not be so constrained and limited.

It’s good to explain that purgatory is not a “second chance.” Preconceived notions are difficult to change unless one is truly seeking to understand. Purgatory is a much disliked doctrine to protestants because it diminishes the greatness of Christ’s sacrifice. That’s the best way I could explain it. I explained it in detail in MT’s discussions so forgive me if I don’t repeat.

I know what you mean about using the CCC. But I would refrain from doing that because it shuts down the conversation immediately - but you can use it if you so will. The CCC is difficult enough for a Catholic to understand, imagine a non-catholic. That would be like someone trying to explain the Koran to you by using a book some of their Imams wrote. it would be better for YOU if they used the Koran. Also, that is the whole problem, they aren’t interested in the churches’ teachings, but in the teachings of the bible (as you must know).

With respect, I don’t need to be talked down to. I’d appreciate it you would not Protestantsplain this to me.

I apologize if you feel I spoke down to you. I don’t know what “protestantsplain” is. OTOH, let me say that if I have to watch every word I say, it will stifle the conversation a bit.

No. It doesn’t. This indicates you possibly didn’t analyze my quotation from the CCC. Indeed you might not have even really considered what I posted.

Salvation is offered through the saving work of Our Lord’s death on the cross. Catholics readily acknowledge this.

However, we as people still have attachments to transgress God’s law. Forgiven or not, we still fundamentally have that as our problem. We have forgiveness for transgressions which we have committed… but forgiveness doesn’t really address the human predilection to transgress in the first place.

In Heaven, we will not be inclined to commit transgressions. Our desires will be in direct alignment with God’s standards. But right now many of us are still inclined to commit transgressions. We still have a sin nature. Ergo at some point we must undergo a pretty radical transformation so as to be ready to enter God’s kingdom, at which point we will be what God originally intended us to be.

That is the purpose of Purgatory.

Believe it or not, I fully know the CCC and I DO understand 1030 - 1033. The problem is that I do not agree with it. It’s putting the onus on me to be perfect to get to heaven. The bible teaches me that Jesus is getting me to heaven. I explained to MT about how we are to “put him on”. I cannot repeat everything. I believe I quoted:
Romans 13:14
Galatians 3:27
The new man is Christ in you. IOW, when you die, you already are that New Man:
Colossians 3:10
1 Corinthians 15:45-49

This is what I have come to believe after much study. Purgatory is not really something we should be arguing about since those in purgatory are saved and that’s what counts.

No offense but this looks to be a reduction of the complicated issue of purification to a simplistic, binary argument of “saved” or “not saved”. Well, purification isn’t about being saved. Indeed, that is already assumed for one in Purgatory. At issue is the believer’s attachment to sin. Their sin nature must be removed. The believer must have his tendency toward sin taken away. “Forgiveness” by itself does not achieve that.

Again, it’s not an issue of forgiveness for transgressions. It’s about the removal of the tendency to commit said transgressions, which is an entirely different proposition. Things that are different are not the same.

No offense taken. You can speak freely. You see, to me and all others except Catholics, it is as easy as being saved or not being saved. Please understand that by this I don’t mean that someone has to say the sinner’s prayer or he’s doomed. I know people who have never read the bible and I’m sure they’re saved. However, there is that dividing line. Even Jesus said there are two roads, one that leads to life and one that leads to destruction. I fail to see how this is simplistic… To me it means that a person must make a choice to serve God (or he is serving the evil one).

ONE

 

[frangiuliano115]

TWO

Where we differ is that I believe that Jesus’ death and our trusting in Him accomplishes both functions - it removes sins and it takes care of the sin nature. The sin nature no longer has dominion over us. You believe correctly re purgatory, many Catholics do not have this concept. The SIN NATURE must be taken care of. It’s just that I believe Jesus does that too. Did we not PUT HIM ON?

But then you say it’s not about forgiveness of transgressons. Okay. Each and every sin could have been confessed and forgiven before death. But you believe that you STILL have to go to purgatory. This doesn’t make sense to me.

If I steal money from a corporation, I’d have to spend time in prison AND give the money back. Reperation.

But how could I EVER pay back what I owe to God? How much time would I have to spend in purgatory? Isn’t this whole idea of why Jesus had to do His salvific work? It seems impossible for me to be able to pay God back. My debt is too big. This is why we say that Jesus paid our debt - we could not pay it on our own. He came to redeem us - buy us back from the grips of the evil one - the dominion of sin. So we are now His already.
For as many as received Him, He gave the right to become children of God.
John 1:12

FG