Your Opinion on Socialism

[ETEXAS]

Pope Pius: “Socialism…Is a subtle evil, it diminishes the individual created in God’s image and replaces it with a hideous Idol…an IDOL of the Corporate … due to mans weakness the temptations of Corruption come to the Fore swiftly … While Capitalism is not Perfect…it is…Passive…it tends not to become greater than it’s ungirding components … while corruption can and does occur here…it is Balanced by the fact that a Capitalist system INFORMED (he spoke of Christian “Truth”/Ethics” it self corrects…perhaps more-so than any Construct of Govt. in an imperfect world." Right on Pacelli!

 

[CMatt25]

I suggest you take a look at Acts and see the description of the very earliest Christian community. Everyone sold what they had, held everything in common, and goods were distributed according to need, and everyone worked according to their talent…Sounds suspiciously socialistic to me…

Peace
James

 

[lutherlic]

Saint John Chrysostom (Doctor of the Church) said:

Should we look to kings and princes to put right the inequalities between rich and poor? Should we require soldiers to come and seize the rich person’s gold and distribute it among his destitute neighbors? Should we beg the emperor to impose a tax on the rich so great that it reduces them to the level of the poor and then to share the proceeds of that tax among everyone?

Equality imposed by force would achieve nothing, and do much harm. Those who combined both cruel hearts and sharp minds would soon find ways of making themselves rich again. Worse still, the rich whose gold was taken away would feel bitter and resentful; while the poor who received the gold form the hands of soldiers would feel no gratitude, because no generosity would have prompted the gift.

Far from bringing moral benefit to society, it would actually do moral harm.

Material justice cannot be accomplished by compulsion, a change of heart will not follow. The only way to achieve true justice is to change people’s hearts first – and then they will joyfully share their wealth.

The Quadragesimo Anno, 117, Encyclical of Pope Pius XI (Reconstruction of the Social Order) said:

…Socialism… cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth.

The Mater Et Magistra from Pope John XXIII (On Christianity and Social Progress) noted:

Pope Pius XI further emphasized the fundamental opposition between Communism and Christianity, and made it clear that no Catholic could subscribe even to moderate Socialism.

In Quod Apostolici Muneris, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII On Socialism said:

Socialists… debase the natural union of man and woman… the [family] bond they… deliver up to lust. Lured… by the greed of present goods… they assail the right of property. While they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title, by labor, or by thrift.

 

[CMatt25]

I also wonder what Christ’s opinion is on run amuck capitalism. Or even on what we are seeing in the United States today with corporate profits what they are, the rich getting richer, receiving their tax cuts and still not producing the jobs needed, while the poor and middle class are asked to make the greater sacrifices, to shoulder the burden of budget cuts, and many struggling to simply get by day to day. For people for instance to have to choose between food on their tables or prescription medication in a nation as wealthy, is shameful in my honest opinion. I don’t believe His opinion would be much higher. Peace.

 

[JRKH]

The thing we have to remember when pulling out references to papal teaching or ECF’'s or whatever is that one can find negative things said about pretty much anything. When democracy was denounced by popes too. Bl JP II wrote blistering attacks on Capitalism…

The thing to remember is that these writings generally reflect the systems as applied, not as envisioned. They respond to abuses, not perfection.

As I said earlier…ANY system will work if we can eliminate the 7 deadly sins…

Peace
James

 

[Robert_Sock]

Saint John Chrysostom (Doctor of the Church) said:

The Quadragesimo Anno, 117, Encyclical of Pope Pius XI (Reconstruction of the Social Order) said:

The Mater Et Magistra from Pope John XXIII (On Christianity and Social Progress) noted:

In Quod Apostolici Muneris, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII On Socialism said:

Things change! What you’re talking about here is going to get old in time. Once very true, it will become obsolete.

Ecclesiastes 3:1
All things have their season, and in their times all things pass under heaven.

 

[CMatt25]

A previous poster said to “take a look at Acts and see the description of the very earliest Christian community.” And then there are posters quoting CCC, Popes and a saint. So now I’m confused. Do Catholics place greater emphasis for instance on CCC and what Popes say vs Acts?

 

[CMatt25]

Things change! What you’re talking about here is going to get old in time. Once very true, it will become obsolete.

Ecclesiastes 3:1
All things have their season, and in their times all things pass under heaven.

Yes I always remind myself how at one time women were not to speak in churches as an example. Peace.

 

[ETEXAS]

Actually…my challenge…show me WHERE socialism works…Switzerland? LOL…Rising use of Heroin Highest in Europe…Highest Suicide Rate I think…Abortions through the ROOF…Cuba…RIGHT! Battista was a crook…but people were NOT drowning in BATHTUBS “sailing” to Florida! PLUS as Pius/Pacelli warned in my other Post…I agree Capitalism has flaws BUT as he wrote it is Passive (as a Construct) Socialism is ACTIVE in your life in your home in your face in your church in your family…socialism is the “system” that would attempt to make CATHOLIC HOSPITALS DO ABORTION ON DEMAND AT BAYONET POINT! Not how I wish to live…Socialism is a Pipe Dream for those who cannot handle their OWN live and Want to avoid issuues in the Nation /Community …Someone spoke of the Sharing in ACTS …take your jolly meds…that was the anti-thesis of Socialism…WHY??? IT WAS VOLUNTARY…read it again…Socialism is at the POINT OF BAYONET…

 

[chevalier]

As far as consistency with the Christian faith and Catholic teaching goes, I believe both Marxist socialism and early capitalism fall short.

The shortcomings of socialism in theory and practice have been pointed out already to a large extent. Let’s look at capitalism. There is nothing wrong in believing in due wage of one’s labour. However, where is due wage of one’s labour when sheer ownership of money is used to multiply gains ad infinitum without any relationship to actual physical labour or material resources? I’m not going to say that making money on forex is sinful or even wrong. But I’m going to say that capitalism is not so much about being rewarded for one’s work or even one’s natural talent as it is about the received situation on the market.

Also, gains are made within and under a certain system. If that system is unjust and it may be unjust when it allows for abuse of ownership of means of production, to the point of being able to escape having to pay fair wage for work done for the benefit of the owner, then I believe the wealth thus acquired is somehow, at least figuratively, tainted, when the owner did use the avenues the system created for him to enrich himself legally at the expense of others.

What’s a good economy in my view is one in which you can earn a living if you as much as not refuse to work honestly, if you can make a decent living for working diligently, and if you can reap the fruit of your industriousness, care, creativity and dedication, and if the system won’t hold you down just because you’re poor or don’t have friends in high places.

Besides, I believe in the preferential option for the poor the Church preaches (with the reservation that where there is a conflict between a poor and a rich person, justice must be served without unjustly favouring the poor person). If the citizens’ charity should fail, then the state should step in and make sure people aren’t dying in the streets, or even out begging, because they found themselves on the wrong end of the system.

However, this will not really be achieved by a particular economic, social or legal model, it depends on the people. If the people are honest and good, the system will generally also be unless it’s very flawed. If the people aren’t honest and good, they will find their way around even the best system.

Also, I believe in a system as free as possible of sheer bureaucratical obstacles to work or entrepreneurship. One of the pains of entrepreneurs in my country is having to pay income tax before they are actually paid the invoice under which the tax is due. The same applies to the 23% VAT tax on all goods and services, which also needs to be paid before you see the money. So good luck starting a company without cash in bank (say hi to a loan, if you even get it). Then freelancing itself (working for companies as an independent contractor without registering a business) can be actually found illegal under an interpretation of tax laws which is possible to carry through. This has nothing to do with capitalism or socialism, it has everything to do with unamiganative bureaucracy.

In my view it should be possible to make capital off one’s labour, without having to put in initial capital or else the already wealthy will be unjustly favoured.

This was about economy. As far as the political side of socialism goes, down with the reds. (But do please take care of the encroachments of big corporations on individual rights too.)

 

[Jocko_VT]

Actually…my challenge…show me WHERE socialism works…Switzerland? LOL…Rising use of Heroin Highest in Europe…Highest Suicide Rate I think…Abortions through the ROOF…Cuba…RIGHT! Battista was a crook…but people were NOT drowning in BATHTUBS “sailing” to Florida! PLUS as Pius/Pacelli warned in my other Post…I agree Capitalism has flaws BUT as he wrote it is Passive (as a Construct) Socialism is ACTIVE in your life in your home in your face in your church in your family…socialism is the “system” that would attempt to make CATHOLIC HOSPITALS DO ABORTION ON DEMAND AT BAYONET POINT! Not how I wish to live…Socialism is a Pipe Dream for those who cannot handle their OWN live and Want to avoid issuues in the Nation /Community …Someone spoke of the Sharing in ACTS …take your jolly meds…that was the anti-thesis of Socialism…WHY??? IT WAS VOLUNTARY…read it again…Socialism is at the POINT OF BAYONET…

Are you serious?

 

[ETEXAS]

Are you serious?

As a heart attack.

 

[Gift_from_God]

Here’s some things to note;

1. Having some socialism does not instantly make your country a socialist one. A purely socialist society can’t work, but neither can a country with no socialism at all.
2. All Marxists are socialists, but not are socialists are Marxists.
3. Many who identify as socialists actually are not completely socialist

Socialized programs actually do work. Do you really want the fire department and police privatized? They’re controlled by the government. The government also pays for the highways you drive on when you go to work. We have also been given public education, probably the greatest thing modern government has ever done. I’ve seen a lot of people on this forum say we need to end things like medicare and welfare because it’s socialism and people will just be charitable if government is not involved. However, this Utopian world is just a fantasy. If it was reality, there would never have been a need for government to get involved in welfare and medical expenses

 

[jwder09]

I suggest you take a look at Acts and see the description of the very earliest Christian community. Everyone sold what they had, held everything in common, and goods were distributed according to need, and everyone worked according to their talent…Sounds suspiciously socialistic to me…

ANNE,
Why would “world government” be “human dictatorship”?

As far as I can tell we already HAVE world government, just not one world government.
Every area, every group, every country has some form of government and some form of economic system. These forms vary widely in their applications though not so much in their forms.

We live under a government now that encompasses our world, the one we grew up in and take part in. If we were to move to another country we would be subject to the laws of that government.

I just don’t see where you are getting this statement, “World government would be a human dictatorship” and that voting would mean nothing…

Peace
James

The Apostles did attempt to establish a communal living structure, as outlined in Acts; however, this was done as a means of illustrating what Heaven could be like. You will also recall, the effort fails on several fronts. Almost immediately, converts refuse to surrender all of their wealth. When questioned, they lie about having done so. Secondly, the effort is not sustained over time. You may argue that it sets a precedent for monastic life; but, the public at large simply did not embrace this concept over time. Nor could they. Remember, the premise was to illustrate Heaven. It spite of the well intentioned effort, that can not properly be accomplished mortals.

Please refer to my earlier statements on the morality of choice. Socialism, even in the case presented in Acts, requires a mandate, enforced by law, not conscience, in order to perpetuate.

On a closing note, when our Lord offers the wealthy man the opportunity to become an Apostle, he tells the man to sell all that he has, and follow. The Lord does not demand that the man surrender all that he has, and hand it over to Him, that it may be distributed for the common good. He allows the man to choose the path taken. Socialism, regardless of the form of government administering it, offers no such choice.

 

[Jocko_VT]

As a heart attack.

“heart attack” seems the appropriate language!

 

[minkymurph]

I can understand what people say about state control denying people freedom. However, as Catholics, we have an obligation to protect the vulnerable and assist the poor.

However, for people who are completely opposed to any concept of socialism, and it has been pointed out here that socialism encompasses many shades of grey, how do they feel about capitalism? Do they feel that offers more freedom? How do they feel about capitalist countries that support military dictatorships, and the practice of intentionally keeping developing countries poor so those in wealthier countries can reap the rewards? Are these practices in keeping with the Catholic faith? Do these practices deny others freedom?

Freedom brings responsibility and as Catholics, we have an obligation to strive for freedom and justice for all, and not just those who are fortunate enough to be able to afford it.

 

[ETEXAS]

“heart attack” seems the appropriate language!

Indeed when faced with those who view Socialism as a benign effective Construct…proof of pudding is in the eating…it always fails…it is putrid.

 

[davidmlamb]

I for one embrace socialism, and I think that Christ was a pure socialist. (I know I’m going to get a lot of flack here)

I also think that the world government, when it finally happens, will be socialistic.

I agree, I believe in a social democracy fueled by a free market economy. The free market needs to be taxed and regulated to assure that it serves the whole of humanity. Wealth needs to be justly spread by virtue of just wages and benefits. The best way to assure this is through mandatory collective bargaining. Taxation is just when it provides social security and universal health care to the masses. This is what modern socialism has evolved to and it works very well in Europe, the UK, Canada, Japan, and many other wealthy countries including the Vatican. It especially works well in Norway and Sweden. In all these countries people are perfectly free and not only are they perfectly free they are perfectly secure from the cruelty that capitalism can bring as well as the totalitarianism that shackeled Eastern Europeans in Marxist Socialism, which is what the CCC is truly condemning.

In the United States we should reform Social Security and Medicare (both are socialism in which the rich gladly collect). First, Social Security should be reformed so that the rich cannot collect it. Those who have private retirment and assets that make them socially secure have no natural right to social security meant for those who are vunerable and at risk. Medicare should be reformed so that at the very least anyone 40 and older is eligable for it and must pay a deductable that is based on income and assets. Their employer health care can cover high deductables and procedures not covered by Medicare. And how do we pay for this? We raise taxes justly. This is keeping with the principles of the gospel, righteousness, and sound economics.

Peace,
David

 

[JRKH]

The Apostles did attempt to establish a communal living structure, as outlined in Acts; however, this was done as a means of illustrating what Heaven could be like. You will also recall, the effort fails on several fronts. Almost immediately, converts refuse to surrender all of their wealth. When questioned, they lie about having done so. Secondly, the effort is not sustained over time. You may argue that it sets a precedent for monastic life; but, the public at large simply did not embrace this concept over time. Nor could they. Remember, the premise was to illustrate Heaven. It spite of the well intentioned effort, that can not properly be accomplished mortals.

Please refer to my earlier statements on the morality of choice. Socialism, even in the case presented in Acts, requires a mandate, enforced by law, not conscience, in order to perpetuate.

On a closing note, when our Lord offers the wealthy man the opportunity to become an Apostle, he tells the man to sell all that he has, and follow. The Lord does not demand that the man surrender all that he has, and hand it over to Him, that it may be distributed for the common good. He allows the man to choose the path taken. Socialism, regardless of the form of government administering it, offers no such choice.

You make some good points above and it is basically why i, in my initial post on this thread expressed the opinion that socialism can ONLY really work in a very small and limited way such as a monastic system, or possibly a company that is “employee owned”.
The reason for this is that the unit must be small enough that the “owners” can easily see, understand, recognize, and react to the various needs, benefits, and responsibilities. As the system tries to get larger, it gets more and more easily corrupted, wasteful and ultimately unworkable.

Peace
James

 

[ETEXAS]

I agree, I believe in a social democracy fueled by a free market economy. The free market needs to be taxed and regulated to assure that it serves the whole of humanity. Wealth needs to be justly spread by virtue of just wages and benefits. The best way to assure this is through mandatory collective bargaining. Taxation is just when it provides social security and universal health care to the masses. This is what modern socialism has evolved to and it works very well in Europe, the UK, Canada, Japan, and many other wealthy countries including the Vatican. It especially works well in Norway and Sweden. In all these countries people are perfectly free and not only are they perfectly free they are perfectly secure from the cruelty that capitalism can bring as well as the totalitarianism that shackeled Eastern Europeans in Marxist Socialism, which is what the CCC is truly condemning.

In the United States we should reform Social Security and Medicare (both are socialism in which the rich gladly collect). First, Social Security should be reformed so that the rich cannot collect it. Those who have private retirment and assets that make them socially secure have no natural right to social security meant for those who are vunerable and at risk. Medicare should be reformed so that at the very least anyone 40 and older is eligable for it and must pay a deductable that is based on income and assets. Their employer health care can cover high deductables and procedures not covered by Medicare. And how do we pay for this? We raise taxes justly. This is keeping with the principles of the gospel, righteousness, and sound economics.

Peace,
David

Hmm…I REALLY miss Reagan…