your opinions on gays

[Freshman88]

That’s a helpful contribution to the conversation.

It’s all that needs to be said.

 

[agangbern]

rlg, you are doing an excellent job of trying to explain Church teaching. Agangbern’s misunderstanding of Church teaching stems from misunderstanding the definition of “disordered desire.” Since both homosexuality and lust are disordered desires he/she believes they are the same form of disorder.

Perhaps for him or her to understand that gluttony is also a form of disordered desire might help in communication?

Blessings as you continue to spread Truth rlg94086!

Not simply disordered desire but disordered sexual desire. Homosexuality and lust are both disordered sexual desire, but lust is broader than homosexuality. They are not the same because lust is not limited to homosexuality alone.

 

[agangbern]

Originally Posted by RomanCrusader View Post
Homosexuality is an atrocity.
That’s a helpful contribution to the conversation.

Yes, that is a worthy opinion by crusader. Very honest to his view!

 

[agangbern]

Thank you for that question and all your thoughful posts on CAF.

I remember being very “drawn” to my best friend when I was eight years old. As the youngest girl of three girls in a devout Catholic family, I had only the most traditional examples of family life to emulate. Growing up in the early 60’s, in an Italian Catholic family and neighborhood and being taught by the sisters, there would have been no outside influences for me to draw on. However, due to several sexually inappropriate incidents when I was 6, I believe I was oversexualized at a young age. Consequently, I began to look toward other little girls because that was what was available and it seemed less threatening. Thankfully, my mom discovered this inappropriate behavior and intervened effectively. Later, into my twenties, I returned to this form of expression for a few years but I know now it was mostly the result of feminist influence and the rebellion of youth.

My point: I think that many, if not most, children experience feelings of confusion as they are growing up. In my case, I believe what I really wanted was to BE like the other girls, but I expressed that by thinking I WANTED the other girls. Also, in my case, it was a very effective way to lash out at what I saw as the oppressive rules and regulations of my family and the culture at the time. Today, kids as young as 8 are being encouraged to pursue these feelings of confusion and in fact, are being pressured to label themselves homosexual long before they have actually reached full maturity. How can a 14 year old possibly know something like this? Their brains are still developing, their hormones are overwhelming them.

When I experienced this confusion, I had no student groups on campus to push me toward the gay lifestyle. There were no TV shows to glorify homosexuality or movie stars “coming out” publicly. It was still considered a “disorder” and so a youngin’ still had a chance to nurture and develop proper gender identity with the support of parents, teachers, clergy. Today, confused kids are told if they have feelings for a member of their own gender, they MUST be gay. I thank God I was born and raised when I was, and that I had a mother who wasn’t afraid to call a sin by it’s name.

You are very lucky blessedtoo to have a mother like that. Call a sin by its name.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Thank you for that question and all your thoughful posts on CAF.

I remember being very “drawn” to my best friend when I was eight years old. As the youngest girl of three girls in a devout Catholic family, I had only the most traditional examples of family life to emulate. Growing up in the early 60’s, in an Italian Catholic family and neighborhood and being taught by the sisters, there would have been no outside influences for me to draw on. However, due to several sexually inappropriate incidents when I was 6, I believe I was oversexualized at a young age. Consequently, I began to look toward other little girls because that was what was available and it seemed less threatening. Thankfully, my mom discovered this inappropriate behavior and intervened effectively. Later, into my twenties, I returned to this form of expression for a few years but I know now it was mostly the result of feminist influence and the rebellion of youth.

My point: I think that many, if not most, children experience feelings of confusion as they are growing up. In my case, I believe what I really wanted was to BE like the other girls, but I expressed that by thinking I WANTED the other girls. Also, in my case, it was a very effective way to lash out at what I saw as the oppressive rules and regulations of my family and the culture at the time. Today, kids as young as 8 are being encouraged to pursue these feelings of confusion and in fact, are being pressured to label themselves homosexual long before they have actually reached full maturity. How can a 14 year old possibly know something like this? Their brains are still developing, their hormones are overwhelming them.

When I experienced this confusion, I had no student groups on campus to push me toward the gay lifestyle. There were no TV shows to glorify homosexuality or movie stars “coming out” publicly. It was still considered a “disorder” and so a youngin’ still had a chance to nurture and develop proper gender identity with the support of parents, teachers, clergy. Today, confused kids are told if they have feelings for a member of their own gender, they MUST be gay. I thank God I was born and raised when I was, and that I had a mother who wasn’t afraid to call a sin by it’s name.

Thank you for sharing that. My case was similar in that I grew up before student groups or TV shows-but I still never developed any interest in the opposite sex. I tried, because I wanted to be “normal”, but it was always false. It would be the same as if a heterosexual person tried to be homosexual. The idea of a relationship with someone of the opposite gender is as unnatural to me as having a relationship with the same gender is unnatural to those who are heterosexual. It took me until my 30’s to stop trying to force something that could not be forced and seek help from the Church. Fortunately, God led me to Priests that were well versed in Catholic teaching. I know of SSA people who have gone to Priests who have told them “Well, that’s the way God made you, and God wouldn’t want you to be lonely-so it’s ok to live the lifestyle”

I’m sorry that there are still people out there who feel that by my very existence I am doomed to hell-whether I act on my orientation or not. However, I will continue to accept counsel from my Confessor and the Church and work hard every day to live a life obedient to God.

 

[agangbern]

Which comes first…desire or marriage?

I have allowed myself to be dragged off topic here many times. Better start another thread for this question.

 

[KarenNC]

As for the idea of orientation-I have questions for the heterosexuals posting here. When did you first know that you were attracted to the opposite sex? Did someone teach you how to be attracted to the opposite sex? Did you model your behavior on your parents?

I would have to say that the earliest I can remember was when I was in kindergarten, when I had a crush on the next door neighbor’s grandson. I know my daughter has shown signs of an definitely qualitatively different interest in the opposite sex since she was younger than that. Now this was not (and for my daughter is not) specifically sexual, but a definite interest in relating to them, and in a different way than to other girls.

I have never had any sort of sexual interest in girls, or ever had any feelings at all that I was not meant to be a girl. An appreciation for beauty and grace or some other attribute of another girl or woman, certainly, but more in the way one would appreciate art, not in a sexual attraction way.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Not simply disordered desire but disordered sexual desire. Homosexuality and lust are both disordered sexual desire, but lust is broader than homosexuality. They are not the same because lust is not limited to homosexuality alone.

No, it’s not. Homosexuality is the result of a sexual-identity deficit that has become eroticized. In order for it to be sinful, it must be willed. No one that I know, including myself, wills themselves to have this condition.

It can be controlled but it’s always a struggle. It really depends on one’s reaction when confronted with temptation, as it does with everything else.

For example, I could be walking down a beach and be surrounded by guys in shorts and no shirts. I have a choice. First, I could ogle them and select one or two and fantasize; thus sin. Second, I could look at them as fellow men, acknowledge that some of them are attractive to me and keep my eyes to myself, pray and offer it up; thus not sin and instead, accumulate merit.

In other words, it’s a cross, nothing more.

 

[Fitswimmer]

No, it’s not. Homosexuality is the result of a sexual-identity deficit that has become eroticized. In order for it to be sinful, it must be willed. No one that I know, including myself, wills themselves to have this condition.

It can be controlled but it’s always a struggle. It really depends on one’s reaction when confronted with temptation, as it does with everything else.

For example, I could be walking down a beach and be surrounded by guys in shorts and no shirts. I have a choice. First, I could ogle them and select one or two and fantasize; thus sin. Second, I could look at them as fellow men, acknowledge that some of them are attractive to me and keep my eyes to myself, pray and offer it up; thus not sin and instead, accumulate merit.

In other words, it’s a cross, nothing more.

That’s exactly how I feel. There are some situations that I have to avoid, just like any other Catholic avoids near occasions of sin.

 

[agangbern]

At around 9 years old I started to see that boys were “cute.” At the same time I started to see grown women as attractive. As I developed positive relationships with grown women I had identified as beautiful I found that I was not attracted to them in a sexual way, but instead wanted to be like them. My friends who had SSA found that at a similar age they never had strong positive relationships with adults of their same sex. Even if they didn’t report a negative relationship, they still couldn’t identify someone of the same sex that they “idolized” and were close to like I was describing. They could only identify being rejected if they had someone like that in their lives.

This is very enlightening to me! SSA therefore does not necessarily mean “sexual desire for the same sex”, but it could also mean “want to be like them”, or “idolizing them”. In such cases I would say that SSA is not homosexuality.

From my many frank discussions on sexuality, especially through studying Theology of the Body, I have come to believe it is both nature and nurture. We are fallen. We now have imperfect nature and imperfect nurture.

I think LittleDeb’s belief is right, that we now have imperfect nature. And I would like to add, that this imperfect nature is often assumed by man as his true nature, the nature that is imperfect.

There are some interesting studies on defining moments and how they can flip a switch in our nature. I worked on identifying my own that triggered the promiscuity in my past. So then my question, similar to fitswimmer’s, “When did I become promiscuous? I grew up in a traditional home, my parents soon to be married 45 years modeled a good solid marriage. As far as I know there are no promiscuous people in my genetic history. So when did my promiscuity develop? Do I have an inclination that I chose to act on? Is promiscuous just the way God made me?”

I think God would not make anyone promiscuous, or a sinner for that matter. I think it is the power of satan trying to pull man away from righteousness, away from the truth.

(PS. Just to be clear I have completely overcome that part of my past. I have no desires toward that behavior any more.)

Congratulations, LittleDeb! I hope many who are experiencing now what you experienced long ago would also finally completely overcome. Thank you for your wonderful post.

 

[agangbern]

Originally Posted by LCMS_No_More View Post
No, it’s not. Homosexuality is the result of a sexual-identity deficit that has become eroticized. In order for it to be sinful, it must be willed. No one that I know, including myself, wills themselves to have this condition.

It can be controlled but it’s always a struggle. It really depends on one’s reaction when confronted with temptation, as it does with everything else.

For example, I could be walking down a beach and be surrounded by guys in shorts and no shirts. I have a choice. First, I could ogle them and select one or two and fantasize; thus sin. Second, I could look at them as fellow men, acknowledge that some of them are attractive to me and keep my eyes to myself, pray and offer it up; thus not sin and instead, accumulate merit.

In other words, it’s a cross, nothing more.

That’s exactly how I feel. There are some situations that I have to avoid, just like any other Catholic avoids near occasions of sin.

I could picture in my mind the sacrifice going on. Even if they think that it could not be controlled, they still continue to struggle in order to control it.No one would do such a sacrifice except he firmly hopes in the goodness of the Lord.

 

[Bennie_P]

blessedtoo;2880927:

Thank you for that question and all your thoughful posts on CAF.

I remember being very “drawn” to my best friend when I was eight years old. As the youngest girl of three girls in a devout Catholic family, I had only the most traditional examples of family life to emulate. Growing up in the early 60’s, in an Italian Catholic family and neighborhood and being taught by the sisters, there would have been no outside influences for me to draw on. However, due to several sexually inappropriate incidents when I was 6, I believe I was oversexualized at a young age. Consequently, I began to look toward other little girls because that was what was available and it seemed less threatening. Thankfully, my mom discovered this inappropriate behavior and intervened effectively. Later, into my twenties, I returned to this form of expression for a few years but I know now it was mostly the result of feminist influence and the rebellion of youth.

My point: I think that many, if not most, children experience feelings of confusion as they are growing up. In my case, I believe what I really wanted was to BE like the other girls, but I expressed that by thinking I WANTED the other girls. Also, in my case, it was a very effective way to lash out at what I saw as the oppressive rules and regulations of my family and the culture at the time. Today, kids as young as 8 are being encouraged to pursue these feelings of confusion and in fact, are being pressured to label themselves homosexual long before they have actually reached full maturity. How can a 14 year old possibly know something like this? Their brains are still developing, their hormones are overwhelming them.

When I experienced this confusion, I had no student groups on campus to push me toward the gay lifestyle. There were no TV shows to glorify homosexuality or movie stars “coming out” publicly. It was still considered a “disorder” and so a youngin’ still had a chance to nurture and develop proper gender identity with the support of parents, teachers, clergy. Today, confused kids are told if they have feelings for a member of their own gender, they MUST be gay. I thank God I was born and raised when I was, and that I had a mother who wasn’t afraid to call a sin by it’s name.

Thank you for sharing that. My case was similar in that I grew up before student groups or TV shows-but I still never developed any interest in the opposite sex. I tried, because I wanted to be “normal”, but it was always false. It would be the same as if a heterosexual person tried to be homosexual. The idea of a relationship with someone of the opposite gender is as unnatural to me as having a relationship with the same gender is unnatural to those who are heterosexual. It took me until my 30’s to stop trying to force something that could not be forced and seek help from the Church. Fortunately, God led me to Priests that were well versed in Catholic teaching. I know of SSA people who have gone to Priests who have told them “Well, that’s the way God made you, and God wouldn’t want you to be lonely-so it’s ok to live the lifestyle”

I’m sorry that there are still people out there who feel that by my very existence I am doomed to hell-whether I act on my orientation or not. However, I will continue to accept counsel from my Confessor and the Church and work hard every day to live a life obedient to God.

These two post are two of the best in this whole thread. they show honesty, and the conflict of understanding by those that add to the conflict of the issue, but also the importance of the proper counseling both received. IMHO, God doesn’t doom us for our feelings, but how we act on them, and our failure to turn to Him and trust Him to help us through whatever Cross we have to carry. Thanks to both of you for sharing.

 

[StevenFrancis]

These two post are two of the best in this whole thread. they show honesty, and the conflict of understanding by those that add to the conflict of the issue, but also the importance of the proper counseling both received. IMHO, God doesn’t doom us for our feelings, but how we act on them, and our failure to turn to Him and trust Him to help us through whatever Cross we have to carry. Thanks to both of you for sharing.

Thank you fitswimmer and blessedtoo. I echo Bennie P.'s kudos. Regardless of the fact that you felt or even still feel these feeling, you recognized them as theologically inappropriate to act on, and I believe with all my heart, that is what you’re called to do. You are shining examples of bearing the cross. Something we all must do in our given set up burdensome circumstances.

Blessings,

Steven

 

[rlg94086]

I have allowed myself to be dragged off topic here many times. Better start another thread for this question.

Okay… forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=193371 , but I made it about the broader question of lust versus desire.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Thank you fitswimmer and blessedtoo. I echo Bennie P.'s kudos. Regardless of the fact that you felt or even still feel these feeling, you recognized them as theologically inappropriate to act on, and I believe with all my heart, that is what you’re called to do. You are shining examples of bearing the cross. Something we all must do in our given set up burdensome circumstances.

Blessings,

Steven

Thank you for your kindness. This is the kind of support I was hoping to receive here. I cannot share these thoughts with just anyone, and having a place where I can come and know that there are people who, even if they do not share my cross, will help support me in carrying it.

 

[blessedtoo]

Thank you for sharing that. My case was similar in that I grew up before student groups or TV shows-but I still never developed any interest in the opposite sex. I tried, because I wanted to be “normal”, but it was always false. It would be the same as if a heterosexual person tried to be homosexual. The idea of a relationship with someone of the opposite gender is as unnatural to me as having a relationship with the same gender is unnatural to those who are heterosexual. It took me until my 30’s to stop trying to force something that could not be forced and seek help from the Church. Fortunately, God led me to Priests that were well versed in Catholic teaching. I know of SSA people who have gone to Priests who have told them “Well, that’s the way God made you, and God wouldn’t want you to be lonely-so it’s ok to live the lifestyle”

I certainly understand that there are many folks with SSA who NEVER feel an attraction to the opposite sex, no matter what efforts are made in that direction. But I do believe that the spectrum of sexuality can range greatly and that outside influence, grace, and personal choice can play a role. My sister, who was married and a mother, was greatly influenced by my militant feminist/lesbian lifestyle and made a decision, in her 30’s, to reject men and persue relationships with women. Now in her late 50’s, she is still devoted to this lifestlye. One of my dearest friends in high school “appeared” to be gay, yet he got engaged to a woman in his early 20’s and would have married had she not turned out to be a shrew! He later determined she was illustrative of “all women” and chose to persue his homosexual tendencies. The last job I had was among all homosexuals and 90 percent of them had engaged in opposite sex relationships with different levels of success at one time or another. One woman was engaged to a man and would have married had he not passed away. Three of the men I worked with had all had long term relationships with women in college, yet found the homosexual lifestyle more attractive.

While there are absolutely those cases where an SSA individual is unable to have any draw toward the opposite sex, there are many for whom influence and choice does play a large part.

I’m sorry that there are still people out there who feel that by my very existence I am doomed to hell-whether I act on my orientation or not. However, I will continue to accept counsel from my Confessor and the Church and work hard every day to live a life obedient to God.

I am so sorry if you have experienced such wrong headed theology among Christians. For the most part (with a few rare but unfortunately notorious exceptions) Catholics understand the sacrifice of carrying one’s personal cross with grace and dignity and admire those who do so. Our SSA brethren (and we have quite a few here!) who accept Church teaching and witness in the world to the glory of God are, IMO, modern day saints!

 

[rlg94086]

Thank you for your kindness. This is the kind of support I was hoping to receive here. I cannot share these thoughts with just anyone, and having a place where I can come and know that there are people who, even if they do not share my cross, will help support me in carrying it.

I think you will find a lot of support from Catholics who understand the Church teaching regarding same sex attraction. That is part of the reason I participate on these threads. As Catholics, we won’t see eye-to-eye on everything, but we should support each other in our struggle with sin.

I also always encourage people to get the CD Confession . It is free, and I think it puts a wonderful perspective on sin.

 

[rlg94086]

I certainly understand that there are many folks with SSA who NEVER feel an attraction to the opposite sex, no matter what efforts are made in that direction. But I do believe that the spectrum of sexuality can range greatly and that outside influence, grace, and personal choice can play a role. My sister, who was married and a mother, was greatly influenced by my militant feminist/lesbian lifestyle and made a decision, in her 30’s, to reject men and persue relationships with women. Now in her late 50’s, she is still devoted to this lifestlye. One of my dearest friends in high school “appeared” to be gay, yet he got engaged to a woman in his early 20’s and would have married had she not turned out to be a shrew! He later determined she was illustrative of “all women” and chose to persue his homosexual tendencies. The last job I had was among all homosexuals and 90 percent of them had engaged in opposite sex relationships with different levels of success at one time or another. One woman was engaged to a man and would have married had he not passed away. Three of the men I worked with had all had long term relationships with women in college, yet found the homosexual lifestyle more attractive.

While there are absolutely those cases where an SSA individual is unable to have any draw toward the opposite sex, there are many for whom influence and choice does play a large part.

Very well put. I believe there is a spectrum as well, and that is exactly how I describe it. For example, someone who considers themself bi-sexual can easily make the choice to live a chaste life. They are attracted to both sexes, so it isn’t a big step to deny the same sex attraction. I think some people who have same sex attraction are not on the far end of the spectrum - those are probably the people who have a chance with “therapy.” Others, who have absolutely zero attraction to the opposite sex, have the biggest cross to bear in these regards.

 

[RomanCrusader]

That’s a helpful contribution to the conversation.

The topic asked for my opinion on homosexuality, and I gave it. I don’t need to try and justify my view to the likes of you. I know homosexuality is a abhorrent crime against God and nature.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

The topic asked for my opinion on homosexuality, and I gave it. I don’t need to try and justify my view to the likes of you. I know homosexuality is a abhorrent crime against God and nature.

How would you treat a homosexual person who is living according to the teachings of the Church?

I also mean there, that they are attending Courage meetings and the like, so they’re not totally “in the closet” about the issue.