your opinions on gays

[agangbern]

With respect, I find Robert’s answer more helpful. The starting point for my question was that appropriate sex is that which occurs in the marital context and which fulfills both a unitive and procreative function.

It is good that you somehow find helpful answers to your questions. Congrats!

Since many heterosexuals engage in sexual behavior within the marital context which is identical or very similar to the sex acts commonly engaged in by homosexual persons, it didn’t seem to me that things are as straightforward as your response might suggest.

What is your basis for saying, "Many heterosexuals engage in sexual behavior within the marital context which is identical or very similar to the sex acts commonly engaged in by homosexual persons."?Is there a study thoroughly conducted that established that as a fact?

You were looking for a straightforward answer from me regarding your question which was premised on a merely assumed fact. For that reason and for the simple reason that heterosexuals are not the topic of this thread, so I tried not give so much importance to that question. Even now I already allowed myself to be dragged again into this irrelevant issue just for your satisfaction.

 

[donusII]

I don’t believe I have seen SSA used anywhere else either (other than to mean Social Security Administration ).

HA! Your joke was better than mine about the racket!!

 

[LittleDeb]

Even if one defines themselves as a homosexual person they no more walk around in lust than anyone else does.

 

[LittleDeb]

I’ve mentioned that before-it seems that there is a belief in the heterosexual community that homosexuals think about sex 24/7-which I can assure you that in my case that is patently UNTRUE. Maybe heterosexuals think about sex 24/7, but I’ve got lots of other things on my mind. I’ve got 2 jobs, bills to pay, cats to feed, swim practice to get to, classes to take, books to read…my sexuality is a really, really, really minor part of my day.

I don’t identify myself by my sexuality and I don’t notice that the heterosexuals in my life do either. In fact, most of the people in my real life world don’t even know what my sexuality is, because I have had no need to mention it. I’m simply single with no kids.

You have a great way of putting things! Chaste people, be they married or single, just have a healthy understanding of sexuality, so we all keep the context where it belongs. Theology of the Body goes into such an incredible understanding of sexuality. Actually we all identify by our sexuality, we just don’t dwell on sexual orientation or acts of sexual pleasure.

I am a woman. That never changes. Everything I do, I do as a woman. When I pray, I pray as a woman. Sexuality, under Church teaching, is a beautiful gift inherent to our bodies and souls. Secular society’s use of the word ‘sexuality’ has warped its true meaning.

I’m sure you knew all of this already. Your wonderful posts just remind me of the beauty of Church teaching on the subject. She is the only one whose teaching is consistent from every angle. She encourages all of us to chastity, no matter our circumstances.

God bless you in living such a wonderful, quiet example. Hey Urban-hermit, it looks like a kindred spirit to you has joined here at CAF! Look out Fitswimmer, Urban-hermit and I will probably start asking for your help in our chastity threads.

He gives a single perspective and I give a married one. We tag team those people who say, “The Church hates sex.”

 

[donusII]

What is your basis for saying, "Many heterosexuals engage in sexual behavior within the marital context which is identical or very similar to the sex acts commonly engaged in by homosexual persons."?Is there a study thoroughly conducted that established that as a fact?

You were looking for a straightforward answer from me regarding your question which was premised on a merely assumed fact. For that reason and for the simple reason that heterosexuals are not the topic of this thread, so I tried not give so much importance to that question. Even now I already allowed myself to be dragged again into this irrelevant issue just for your satisfaction.

well thanks for your charitable posture toward the discussion agangbern. as to your request for citation to a study, I’m left thinking that you must be clergy. in which case, it’s better that you not know. i don’t want to be the one to disabuse you of your ignorance in this respect.

 

[agangbern]

He gives a single perspective and I give a married one. We tag team those people who say, “The Church hates sex.”

I have not yet meet an individual here who says that the “Church hates sex.” Is this idea not simply a ploy in order to deviate from the real issue about gays? I hope not, otherwise, the tactic would simply be very mean. But if not, why ever bring out such a non-issue? Is there really anyone saying that the Church hates sex? Who?

 

[agangbern]

well thanks for your charitable posture toward the discussion agangbern. as to your request for citation to a study, I’m left thinking that you must be clergy. in which case, it’s better that you not know. i don’t want to be the one to disabuse you of your ignorance in this respect.

It is saying: “There is no such study.” Ignorance? I remember Pope John Paul II’s teaching about “Original Ignorance” in his “Theology of the Body”. It is very enlightening. I encourage everyone to read it.

 

[agangbern]

I’ve mentioned that before-it seems that there is a belief in the heterosexual community that homosexuals think about sex 24/7-which I can assure you that in my case that is patently UNTRUE. Maybe heterosexuals think about sex 24/7, but I’ve got lots of other things on my mind. I’ve got 2 jobs, bills to pay, cats to feed, swim practice to get to, classes to take, books to read…my sexuality is a really, really, really minor part of my day.

I don’t identify myself by my sexuality and I don’t notice that the heterosexuals in my life do either. In fact, most of the people in my real life world don’t even know what my sexuality is, because I have had no need to mention it. I’m simply single with no kids.

As I see it, Fitswimmer, you are not a homosexual. And you are not a heterosexual either. Of course, I am not saying that you are asexual. I just hope no one adds to what I say and then accuse me of having said what I did not say.

 

[agangbern]

To believe your statements that anyone is completely characterized by lust whether they be heterosexual or homosexual is a laughable opinion. Even if one defines themselves as a homosexual person they no more walk around in lust than anyone else does.

What is the opinion you are talking about, goofyjim?
It is not one’s personal definition of himself that makes him a homosexual. What makes a person a homosexual is his insistence in desiring for sexual pleasure with the same sex. So, if a person defines himself as homosexual and yet he does not persist on desiring for sexual pleasure with the same sex, then he is not a homosexual.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Here’s how my Priest explained it to me-perhaps it will help.

Desire alone is not sin, UNLESS that desire is allowed to move into the realm of fantasy-which is a choice. For example, a married man sees a lovely woman (not his wife), when he sees her, he feels a flash of desire. At this point-he has a choice-to banish the desire or to allow it to continue as fantasy. Once he chooses to entertain that fantasy, he has moved into sin. Same thing for someone who has a desire for the person of the same sex.

According to my Priest, he gives the same advice regarding this issue to heterosexuals-at the instant the desire is recognized-say a prayer and do not entertain it as fantasy and you will not have sinned.

I’ve spent a lot of time over the years discussing this issue with Priests and confessors-it’s my life and my salvation so it’s far more than an intellecutal exercise. Consistently, for over 20 years, in both modern and traditional Latin parishes, I have heard the same teaching, sexual desire is not a sin until the individual, whether gay or straight, engages that desire with full consent of the will.

That’s one good priest; he has a handle on where the line is drawn. Lucky for you.

 

[Pug]

Basically, I am always aware of which sex I am. I think it impacts how I view things and what I do on many levels. For example, I am far more likely to stand close to someone of the same sex as myself. Also, when speaking with the opposite sex, I am quite cautious of the “improper” conversation. By improper I mean too friendly or too intimate, given that I am married. If a colleague invites me to go out for coffee, it will matter to me *immediately *if they are a man or if they are a woman. On almost every level there are differences to be noted in how I behave, and this is because humans are sexually differentiated. There is always the potential difference there, with the opposite sex. Perhaps this potential that one senses is affected by which sex one finds attractive. If so, then which sex you find attractive would matter every day (at least, on any day where you spend time with other people).

 

[donusII]

Basically, I am always aware of which sex I am. I think it impacts how I view things and what I do on many levels. For example, I am far more likely to stand close to someone of the same sex as myself. Also, when speaking with the opposite sex, I am quite cautious of the “improper” conversation. By improper I mean too friendly or too intimate, given that I am married. If a colleague invites me to go out for coffee, it will matter to me *immediately *if they are a man or if they are a woman. On almost every level there are differences to be noted in how I behave, and this is because humans are sexually differentiated. There is always the potential difference there, with the opposite sex. Perhaps this potential that one senses is affected by which sex one finds attractive. If so, then which sex you find attractive would matter every day (at least, on any day where you spend time with other people).

I think that’s a quite reasonable inference Pug. I think it’s respectable that you can imagine how someone’s “orientation” affects other aspects of their lives – that things aren’t so black and white – and that it doesn’t have to mean that you are having endless fantasies all day for it to affect your life in a more general way.

 

[Pug]

I was talking of desire as a verb, “to desire”, and that was what I discussed. Now, your question above concerns on desire as a noun. Desire as a noun is a passion, yes. And that is what is talked about in the CCC you cited:
1772 The principal passions are love and hatred, desire and fear, joy, sadness, and anger.
1767 In themselves passions are neither good nor evil. They are morally qualified only to the extent that they effectively engage reason and will. Passions are said to be voluntary, “either because they are commanded by the will or because the will does not place obstacles in their way.” It belongs to the perfection of the moral or human good that the passions be governed by reason.

The above citations are clear in themselves: “Passions are said to be voluntary, either because they are commanded by the will or because the will does not place obstacles in their way.” It belongs to the perfection of the moral or human good that the passions be governed by reason."

Yes, I agree with you that there is a desire that one does not need to resist. Example is the desire to be united with God. Man does not need to resist that desire whenever it comes along.
However, the “disordered desire for sexual pleasure” spoken of in CCC2351 is one of those which man can will to avoid. CCC2351 is talking about lust, and lust is intrinsically morally disordered, hence man should decide not to desire it.

I’ve read this a few times. And I’ve pondered. I think you and I agree, but we use different language to express ourselves. When you use desire as a verb, you are meaning that the person is willing it, and perhaps that is why you call it a verb, because verbs have action in them.

 

[Fitswimmer]

That’s one good priest; he has a handle on where the line is drawn. Lucky for you.

It’s more than one good Priest-I’ve truly been blessed with several. One told me that specific example-but the general theme has been reinforced by others.

One has gone home to God, but the others are still living and helping others.

As I see it, Fitswimmer, you are not a homosexual. And you are not a heterosexual either. Of course, I am not saying that you are asexual. I just hope no one adds to what I say and then accuse me of having said what I did not say.

So, I’m asexual because I don’t think about sex 24/7? If that’s true, then I’m aquainted with a whole lot of asexual people!

 

[Fitswimmer]

You have a great way of putting things! Chaste people, be they married or single, just have a healthy understanding of sexuality, so we all keep the context where it belongs. Theology of the Body goes into such an incredible understanding of sexuality. Actually we all identify by our sexuality, we just don’t dwell on sexual orientation or acts of sexual pleasure.

I am a woman. That never changes. Everything I do, I do as a woman. When I pray, I pray as a woman. Sexuality, under Church teaching, is a beautiful gift inherent to our bodies and souls. Secular society’s use of the word ‘sexuality’ has warped its true meaning.

I’m sure you knew all of this already. Your wonderful posts just remind me of the beauty of Church teaching on the subject. She is the only one whose teaching is consistent from every angle. She encourages all of us to chastity, no matter our circumstances.

God bless you in living such a wonderful, quiet example. Hey Urban-hermit, it looks like a kindred spirit to you has joined here at CAF! Look out Fitswimmer, Urban-hermit and I will probably start asking for your help in our chastity threads.

He gives a single perspective and I give a married one. We tag team those people who say, “The Church hates sex.”

I’ve been blessed with wonderful Priests and Confessors that have helped me to understand my situation. Everything I’ve learned, I’ve learned from them.

I’m happy to share what I’ve learned, it saddens me that there are so many who are not as lucky as I have been in regard to spiritual help.

 

[MarkInOregon]

I believe God created me this way and intends fully for me to love and experience intimate love of another human. But I also believe God intends for me to use my sexuality responsibly and not sleep around and such - just as a “heterosexual” couple is expected to do.

Three things to note:
We have all been damaged by the fall so we do not exist in the state that God created us in.
Simply believing something doesn’t make it true.
Heterosexual couples are not to “sleep together” unless they are married.

Now for my question. If a person who suffers from an attraction to children told you “I believe God created me this way and intends fully for me to love and experience intimate love of another human” What would you say?

What if a person was proved to be hard wired for anger and violence? Would the fact that they believed God created them the right to act on that anger and violence?

Thank you and Peace,
Mark

 

[agangbern]

Three things to note:
We have all been damaged by the fall so we do not exist in the state that God created us in.
Simply believing something doesn’t make it true.
Heterosexual couples are not to “sleep together” unless they are married.

Now for my question. If a person who suffers from an attraction to children told you “I believe God created me this way and intends fully for me to love and experience intimate love of another human” What would you say?

What if a person was proved to be hard wired for anger and violence? Would the fact that they believed God created them the right to act on that anger and violence?

Thank you and Peace,
Mark

Yes to that. The fallen nature is not man’s true nature. It cannot be used by anybody as an excuse to the commission of sins.

 

[defenderoftruth]

Ok well you all can argue about what’s “compassionate” or whether it’s a “disorder” or a disease and I’ll just say that Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that homosexuals aren’t going to be in the kingdom of God, furthermore he stated in the very next verse that some of them “were” but they’ve been washed sanctified. (no longer such)

Now when someone wants to commit sodomy, they aren’t playing with a full deck I don’t care if they are “attracted/tempted” or not. It’s sodomy for crying out loud! Their “attraction” is to what men, and…sodomy ie not normal, healthy or a sane thing. Not to mention women who dress, talk, walk, and act like men or men that do vice versa. That’s psychological and it’s frankly demonic (many start to look like men and some men like women because they have given demons a spot in their body to reek havoc)

I really don’t care what the APA says about homosexuality not being a “disorder/illness” it is. (GO TO A PRIDE PARADE SOMETIME) I have, to talk to them about their need for Jesus Christ and forgiveness and that they can change if they actually give up their desires to God. I’ve met former homosexuals who have no “attraction” to men/women and actually speak out against this mentality of “be temted just don’t act”. Someone that is tempted to molest children but doesn’t is still sick and in need to be delivered. (no I’m not pentacostal or protestant even) But I do believe in catholic exorcism!

I’m sick and tired of hearing “how dare you tell me I need to be delivered I’m just fine as long as I don’t act, you’re not being ‘compassionate’” (while they attend homosexual events that mock God, with naked/half naked people that relish homosexuality). It’s not compassionate to let someone live STUBBORNLY in sin or in temptation of sin without telling them they need to be delivered.

Sorry if this sounds rough but really c’mon stop the bleeding heart liberalism and deal with the truth! It is disordered. It isn’t normal. It isn’t Christian. It ISN’T compassionate to tell them well you can keep being tempted (thinking about sodomy/lesbianism) while you claim to be a Catholic while attending homosexual gatherings.

Not to slam on you goofyjim but really your attitude is “well there is nothing wrong with having a same sex attraction” dispite the church calling it disordered. So is the church wrong? I don’t think so. I don’t necessary think they choose to have those attractions ((I believe it is a psychological thing growing up possibly-but it must be overcome to have inner peace with God) except when pressed many stick up for temptations and defend them like it’s a normal thing and not a burden of great gravity. They however DO choose to act on them (homosexual acts) and many go to “pride” events that like the name implies it’s a good thing to be homosexual.

 

[KarenNC]

Not to mention women who dress, talk, walk, and act like men or men that do vice versa. That’s psychological and it’s frankly demonic (many start to look like men and some men like women because they have given demons a spot in their body to reek havoc).

Interesting. Catholics teach that it’s demonic for women to wear jeans and tshirts, pants, etc? I am not sure what you mean exactly by “talk like men”, “walk like men”, or “act like men”. As to men who “do vice versa”, that would be men who wear jeans and tshirts? Again, you will need to be more explicit with the “walk, talk and act like” bit.

 

[Elric]

I really don’t care what the APA says about homosexuality not being a “disorder/illness” it is.

Aside from being misguidedand and a tad insensitive, what exactly do you base this claim on?

(GO TO A PRIDE PARADE SOMETIME) I have, to talk to them about their need for Jesus Christ and forgiveness and that they can change if they actually give up their desires to God.

Wouldnt it be better to direct them to the nearest therapist, them having a mental illness and all?

Maybe you should try talking “with” them instead of “to” them and leaving them alone if they are not interested in “talking”.

I’ve met former homosexuals who have no “attraction” to men/women and actually speak out against this mentality of “be temted just don’t act”. Someone that is tempted to molest children but doesn’t is still sick and in need to be delivered. (no I’m not pentacostal or protestant even) But I do believe in catholic exorcism!

So gay people are paedophilles?

I’m sick and tired of hearing “how dare you tell me I need to be delivered I’m just fine as long as I don’t act, you’re not being ‘compassionate’” (while they attend homosexual events that mock God, with naked/half naked people that relish homosexuality).

Then perhaps you should stop going to these events and telling them things that they have quite obviously heard many times before, it doesnt seem to be working for you clearly.

I would say your not being respectful more than not being compassionate.

It’s not compassionate to let someone live STUBBORNLY in sin or in temptation of sin without telling them they need to be delivered.

It all depends on how you do it.