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rlg94086
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At what age do you think our “fallen nature” begins to effect us?
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pathia
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That doesn’t change the fact people continually quote NARTH who I consider an abusive organization and of which I experienced it first hand. This is not a he said/she said argument in that fact. I was abused by them, period.
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AgnosTheist
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its ‘probably’ NOT CAUSED BY A SINGLE FACTOR.“Probably?” Yep. There’s some strong evidence!
humanity has the “advanced nature”, not the “fallen nature”.
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AgnosTheist
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The cause is always relevant as long as ‘God’ is used in the debate.
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rlg94086
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But, that isn’t evidence…it’s a “probably”…IOW they don’t know.
What “advanced nature” are you talking about? And, how does that impact original sin and its effects?
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rlg94086
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BTW…since a genetic cause is being theorized, would you be in favor of a cure for homosexuality? If they can prove a cause for homosexual inclination (genetic, hormonal, etc.), then they can find a cure.
(all opinions welcome)
(all opinions welcome)
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pathia
Guest
Any solution at the genetic level or hormonal level would likely violate Catholic beliefs of stemcells/conception/contraception issues.
Genetically engineering an egg would require the same sort of efforts that are involved in IVF, and even if it could be developed to a point something could be ‘injected’ into the fetus at a young age, that would likely involve stem cells to get to that point. Then, any hormone modification of the human body generally results in sterility, also a nono.
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rlg94086
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Not necessarily. We don’t know that all future genetic treatments will violate Catholic beliefs. If it is genetic therapy *in vitro, *done after a natural conception, then it wouldn’t necessarily be a problem. Surgeries are done in vitro today, and I don’t think the Church has a problem with that.
As far as embryonic stem cells being used, it depends on the latest developments. Scientists have potentially found a way to create “embryonic” stem cells from skin cells.
Anyway, I am not asking about the methods, because we don’t know, so let me reword my question:
If it can be done using a method approved by the Catholic Church, would you be in favor of a cure for homosexuality?
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pathia
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You’re asking someone who was mutilated to the point I cannot enjoy anything God gave me by surgeons as an infant because of the binary nature of sex the Church instructed my parents about.
No, I would not be in favor of it. If it is a therapy that can be implemented after birth, then I would be perfectly willing to let those that don’t wish to be gay undergo the treatment, but not to force it upon them as a fetus/child without consent.
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AgnosTheist
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they dont know for sure. the evidences are not conclusive. but there are objectives evidences anyway:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation
what about the idea that it is learned? any evidences at all?
We have the most advanced brain in the animal kingdom, and that puts us at the top of the food chain. thats what i call ‘advanced nature’.
i’m not a christian so your ‘fallen nature’ thingie is irrelevant to me. its nothing but religious superstition.
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rlg94086
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I’m always sad to hear about your situation, because I’m sure that the surgeons and your parents were doing what they thought was best. Unfortunately, their understanding of your problem and the ability to properly help you weren’t available. If the medical community knew more about your genetic make-up and had a way to correct it in vitro, you wouldn’t have had to go through everything you have been through.
My brother had operations for his birth defects done without his consent, and they were very positive. To wait until he was at an age of consent to do these operations would have been cruel.
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rlg94086
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I think there is…psychological studies. But, why don’t you ask someone who is trying to prove that. I don’t claim to know the cause.
Okay, but you were responding to a religious statement and complaining that it “explains nothing…” You should have said you thought it was religious superstition at that time, rather than engaging with the argument. I think your personal faith in science and the rationality of man are misguided.
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pathia
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The difference is your brother’s birth defects effected his quality of life. The only reason I had surgery performed on me is my genitals were ’ potentially ambiguous’. There was nothing wrong with them, nothing wrong with their function, they were just different. I was mutilated because I looked different. They were worried I might be teased as a kid, so I was cut apart.
Oh, it wasn’t just the medical community. There were a doctor or two that advocated me being left in tact, but the final decider was the Church. My parents had the surgery done because of the Church. The doctors freely admitted that I was functional as is, and the advice they received from the Church was the tipping point in favor of surgery. As far as I am aware the church has not revisited this stance, they still advocate surgery on infants before proper testing and examination can occur simply because ‘everyone has the right to belong to one of the two sexes’ is what I was told, yet they don’t ask the infant in the matter, because it is done before self awareness.
It’s like performing surgery to change someone’s eye-color just because a new color developed and they didn’t want them to be teased as a child, but in the process made them partially blind. What is the purpose? There is none. My quality of life was reduced because of the surgery. Not only am I essentially neuter now due to the surgeries, but I suffer frequent infections as a result.
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rlg94086
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Yes, I have acknowledged that your case is very saddening. However, I don’t think you can project your situation on a possible cure for other cases. There are advances every year in the medical field. In the future, it may be possible to diagnose and cure someone with similar genetic deformities in vitro. That would be a good thing IMHO.
Even if you were “left alone,” you would have still experienced pain and difficulty growing up. They just made it worse, unfortunately.
Edit add: BTW…this thread is about homosexuality, not intersexuality.
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pathia
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Curing my condition would require overwriting all DNA in my body, that isn’t really possible in scientific thought, it’s like leapfrogging centuries into the future.
I have three sets of DNA. XY, XXY and XX. You would have to someone examine a fetus of my sort at a very very very early level, like when it is less than a hundred cells, and repair the error then by injecting one of those sets of DNA’s into the ‘broken’ cells, then hope the fetus doesn’t spontaneously abort while being tampered with at such an early early age. Which DNA is correct? How do you decide which is correct? How do you detect a problem in a fetus when it is only about 100cells?
It’ll be centuries before I can be healed.
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pathia
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The church considers me homosexual. I get more sympathy here than in person, but in person and when I bother to attend Mass I am labeled a homosexual no matter what, there are reasons why I am ‘lapsed’. There are those here that do the same, they are just not active on this thread at this time.
Take the problem of my birth away, and I am still bisexual, regardless of my chromosomes I ‘suffer from SSA’, no matter what due to this fact. I am considered a transsexual, which by the lay christian seems to be ‘the worst form of homosexuality’.
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Ferdinand_Mary
Guest
NOTICE: This thread is moving far afield of the OP. With respect, please refrain from particular and highly personalized anatomical discussions. Discussing particular therapeutic options in the abstract is fine (as long as it pertains to the original topic of this thread); discussions of the particular physiologies of posters and applications of those therapies to them is simply not appropriate for this thread.
Thank you to all in advance for your cooperation and understanding.
Mane Nobiscum Domine,
Ferdinand Mary
Thank you to all in advance for your cooperation and understanding.
Mane Nobiscum Domine,
Ferdinand Mary
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agangbern
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Just because one could not understand what made them that way, it therefore follows that God made them that way! There is simply no logic in there. We know that homosexual tendency
is an aberration of the divine economy in which God reveals himself by creating an image of himself in the orientation of male to female and female to male. Why then should God make them that way if they would become aberration of His divine design? To blame God for the homosexual tendency is simply mocking God!
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kidderdoc
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Once again sigh there is no study that shows any genetic cause for homosexual urges. The act is a mortal sin, not my choosing, but God’s and is un-natural…goes against nature in every regard. The inclination, while debated as sinful or not, is definitely a sign of our fallen human nature.
Are you sure you “learned” to tolerate it or were you genetically wired that way?
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