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rlg94086
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Whoa there Jim…“ridiculed by the Church?” What are you talking about? Individual Catholics maybe, but not by the Church as a whole.
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Alisa
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Well, the problem is that nobody totally understands SSA from a scientific standpoint, though I understand an exhaustive study is being undertaken now. Until somebody figures out why some people are heterosexual and some homosexual, then we shouldn’t stand in judgment. People had a different perception of many things (how God created, what different disease entities actually are, etc.) in the Middle East in Biblical times.
If one doesn’t believe in the gay lifestyle, I have a great idea: Living as a heterosexual oneself – surely we all have enough on our plates to deal with without casting our eyes about to see how others are living and making judgments about them.
Alisa
If one doesn’t believe in the gay lifestyle, I have a great idea: Living as a heterosexual oneself – surely we all have enough on our plates to deal with without casting our eyes about to see how others are living and making judgments about them.
Alisa
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Kevin42
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I have to completely disagree with this statement. While it may torment the flesh at times, living celibate because of one’s love for God and suffering in the flesh can be embraced with joy. Do your family members a favor and explain to them that they will find much more happiness in living the Gospel than they could ever find in sexual relations with the same sex. They need someone to preach the truth to them! I ask that you pray for the courage to do so. Speaking the truth to someone is certainly not judgemental-it is the greatest form of love! Do not let you family members continue to wander in darkness, be the light to world that Jesus is calling you to be!
“No trial has come to you but what is human. God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength; but with the trial he will also provide a way out, so that you may be able to bear it.”
-1Corinthians 10:13 (NAB)
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rlg94086
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Once scientists find out why some people are “homosexual,” then a possible cure can be found.
Regarding “living as a heterosexual oneself,” I do. I also engage in conversation about a whole slew of issues regarding the human condition and morality. There is no reason to be selfish and focus only on my own life. I mean, I guess I could just live my life as a middle class person and not “cast my eyes about” at people who are struggling. Judging is a different thing though. I do my best to follow the teaching of our Church and remember that we are all sinners.
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Alisa
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Thanks for your kind comments, Kevin, but I don’t “preach” to anyone. I prefer to share my faith by living a good life myself and setting a good example. Naturally when my husband and I were raising our large family, we needed to “preach” to our children! With little ones who are growing up you obviously need to explain God’s expectations. If somebody asks my opinion, I will give it in a loving and tactful way – this is just the way I prefer to live my Christian life. But I respect your opinion; thanks again.
Alisa
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Kevin42
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What you would share with them however, is not merely an opinion, it is Truth, and it must be proclaimed. We cannot hoard such a beautiful treasure to ourselves. If we truly love one another, we will share the Truth (not force it upon others though, as love also is about free will) in the most loving way we can. I really do ask you to pray over this, and if nothing else, just pray that they will seek to love God more and more perfectly every day.
I know that you know your family better than I do. Please do not be led to believe that I would presume I know what is the best way to share the Gospel with them. I am only so adamant on this issue because I know about it personally. I will not say anymore though. Peace be with you, and God bless!
I know that you know your family better than I do. Please do not be led to believe that I would presume I know what is the best way to share the Gospel with them. I am only so adamant on this issue because I know about it personally. I will not say anymore though. Peace be with you, and God bless!
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rlg94086
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So, you never speak up, if you see something contrary to what you believe? Live and let live? If people choose to have an abortion, it’s okay with you, as long as it doesn’t effect your life? If someone chooses to have a polygamous relationship, no problem? If someone chooses to torture animals, fine by you as long as it is in their own yard?
I’m glad you are “preaching” to your children, but you may want to add your voice to those of other Christians in the world.
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Alisa
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Well, I agree, RLG94086, that if a Christian sees someone being attacked in the street in front if his house, he needs to rush to the defense of that person if he can, or at least call 911. You make a good point, and I don’t claim to be “totally right” or have all the answers. But “torturing animals,” for example, can hardly be compared to leading a homosexual lifestyle. I’m just saying – let’s have a little respect for the agonies gay people go through with their same sex attraction. I’m also saying it really is self-righteous and quite smug for those of us who aren’t dealing with that particular problem to sit in judgment or glibly tell these people “well, just be celibate, then”! Easier said than done, RLG94086.
I find it’s often all I can do to be a good wife to my husband, take care of my grandchildren, and work at church, among other things, to yet have time to look around and see if there are people I need to “admonish”. In my mind, admonishment and preaching are pretty low on the totem pole of the things I try to take care of as a Christian.
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Ronald_E
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I was surfing the forum and found this thread. I left the Catholic church at age 18 and returned at 58. I left because of the sense that I was not good enough and did not experience a sense of being loved in the faith. I returned because of the love of God. I have learned that every human being has a desire to belong and a desire to love and be loved. This is in our nature as created by God. I have learned that every human being has a reaction of anger and fear in response to being made into something we are not from the moment we come in to this world. We go into hiding and relate to others from false sense of self. An analyst once said it is a pleasure to be hidden but disaster not to be found. In a presumably free society those who are oppressed have an opportunity to begin to express their beliefs and then begin to have an opportunity to discover what is unknown within them. Two particular groups among others are women and homosexuals who have been victims of violence and oppression since history has been recorded. Initially, the expression of being a victim of oppression is going to be rage. Everyone wants to know if we will be loved if we show to others what we have been taught is ugly or sinful within us. When I see and hear heterosexuals discuss homosexuality I see and hear an underlying hostility that may not be recognized by the speaker but is very evident to me as an observer. We identify ourselves partially by our sexual orientation based on unconscious processes that have evolved over millenia in response to a world that is essentially violent due to the sins of heterosexual males. The reaction to the suffering and death created by these males is unique to each of us. Women and children and sensitive males know exactly how dangerous this world is. We also know that each of us is in it alone unless we find someone we can trust enough to open up to. I have been blessed to feel the love of God and returned to our faith. It wasn’t someone telling me I am a sinner that brought me back. We must look internally first to discover how we sin against others before we can approach them with a desire to know them and their life story. God Bless all you who are seeking the source of love.
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martin_hca
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But it is OK for you to stand in judgment of those who as you say “stand in judgment” of those who engage in immoral behavior?”
Actually, you just did. Twice.
Wait, so we ‘shouldn’t preach to anyone’ but we should preach to our children because they are growing up and need to understand God’s expectations?
So, those who have grown but never learned those expectations and may have an erroneous conception of them do not deserve to receive correct teaching that would conform to that which is taught by the Church? Sounds like you are saying we should be more charitable towards our children than we are to others. What if someone does not have children?
Sharing our faith by example is indeed the best way to live. Responding to inquiries is probably the second best. But if someone said “it is OK to look at porn (cheat on your wife, abort a full term baby…” in the course of public discussion, you would be silent?
Do you realize that in some cases, remaining silent would be a sin?
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blessedtoo
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Perhaps, as a new member, you haven’t had the wonderful opportunity to read and observe some of the awesome folks on CAF who are not only living their faith in accordance with Church teaching, but are living it joyfully.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=151591
In addition, it is not only those with SSA who struggle with moral teaching. A quick search of the threads here on CAF will illustrate that we all have our particular struggles and “agonies”.
Certainly being a Christian witness through living your faith is the most effective means of spreading the Gospel message. But we as Catholics are called to evangelize as well. In my case, I don’t hit unsuspecting folks over the head with my Bible and intrude where I am not welcome. But, I do pray every day that God provide me with opportunities to share the Truth. I pray that God will give me the strength and courage to correct errors when they cross my path. I pray that God will give me the words to convey His message most effectively. And above all, I pray that God will inform everything I do with love and compassion for others.
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rlg94086
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I wasn’t trying to say that torturing animals is the same as homosexual acts; however, they are both mortal sins. What about polygamy? That certainly is closer to homosexual acts. Would you tolerate polygamy?
I don’t know what the Greek Orthodox Church teaches, but as Catholics we believe in the spiritual works of mercy.
vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
Yes, we need to do these things in charity and love, but charity and love require us to be honest with people. To tell someone living the “homosexual lifestyle” that it is okay because they were born that way would be a lie. Holy Scripture and the Church clearly teach that it is not okay. This does not mean that we treat them poorly, which unfortunately does happen. But, it also does not mean we accept their sinful acts.
I had to deal with both polygamy and homosexuality in my immediate family. My brother’s wife “came out of the closet” as a “bi-sexual” and invited another woman into their lives. My brother is atheist/agnostic and really did not know how to react, so he let her move in. He expected his parents and brothers to accept them as a “family unit,” but we did not. We lovingly told him that what he was doing was wrong and we wouldn’t treat his “family unit” as normal. He was hurt that we wouldn’t let our children stay the night in his home. When his wife left him (and the other woman), he came to realize how messed up this situation was. If I were to take your counsel, I should have done what? Accepted their “lifestyle choice?” I don’t think so.
On CAF, we deal with a lot of different moral issues. When it comes to sexual morality, I’m going to honestly speak the truth about masturbation, artificial birth control, fornication, lust, adultery, incest, bestiality, polygamy and homosexuality. It doesn’t mean I am without sin. I have to struggle with some of those sins, as do most people. The witness of the individuals on CAF who live a chaste life while dealing with SSA is inspiring. Hopefully, my witness will also help others deal with their sin.
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Elric
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Im glad that you chose to take this path with your reply (well not entirly glad, but it does give the potential to raise something with this absurd choice in logic).
Gay people dont get a choice in what gender they are attracted to, much like an Autistic person doesnt get a choice in having Autism (unless of course you are suggesting that they do?).
Now how exactly being attracted to your own gender or suffering from Autism Spectrum Disorder equates to being “irresponsible of oneself”, I really dont know. That is something that you are going to have to explain.
The asertion of no freedom, well they dont have “freedom” in what gender they are attracted to. They were not given a choice, its like saying that you are free to choose who your parents are. So you would be right (although not in the way that you meant).
Willpower however isnt an issue in regards to what gender you are attracted to. So that is entirly irrelevent to the discussion and is simply a red herring.
Less of a person, no that was never suggested by me at all. Being attracted to your own gender does not prevent you from contributing to society in any way, outside influences (mainly other people) prevents that and attempt to make homosexuals feel as thought they are less of a person.
Lesser than God’s original design for man, well I didnt suggest that either. In fact the response to this is quite similar to the one above, but would also include debate over what Gods percieved original design for man was.
They are simply bringing themselves further down, No that would be other people doing that who dont understand (many through choice) homosexuality. Its much easier to believe that a person has a choice in something when you dont like what that something is, it gives another reason not to like it and involves less thinking, than it is to believe that there is no choice, it makes it harder to dislike the person with that something when they cant help what they have.
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Newbie2
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Unbelievable.
925 posts and a consensus hasn’t been reached yet.
925 posts and a consensus hasn’t been reached yet.
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Pug
Guest
I don’t thoughtlessly or insincerely or glibly tell people the Catholic teaching on sexual behavior. First, Catholic teaching is a serious subject. Second, I am very aware that being faithful to the teaching can be difficult. It is not impossible, though.
I don’t think that it is good to withhold the truth from a person simply on account of the person being different in some way from myself. Of course, there are times when I will say nothing. Probably that is the most likely thing. But sometimes we ought to say something.
Newbie2,
What is really incredible is that the thread hasn’t been shut down yet.
This topic is an easy one to get shut down.
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rlg94086
Guest
You were expecting consensus?Unbelievable.
925 posts and a consensus hasn’t been reached yet.
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Elric
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Actually that is very much open to debate. The holy scripture is most certainly not clear on the topic of homosexuality at all.
In many places words in the original script have ambigous meanings that if used another way would change the meaning of the passage in question. In other cases translators have changed words which have changed the meaning of the passage they translated (ie: instead of using the direct/correct translation of male prostitute, they use the word sodomite. which lossess its meaning anyway because that could simply mean “uncharitable” rather than the meaning they want of “homosexual”).
The famous quote from Leviticus 18:22 has plenty of interpertations that range from:
- Men should not have sex with each other (ie: dont be gay)
- Men shouldnt have sex with each other in a pagan temple
- Men shouldnt have anal sex with each other
- Men should be aware that it isnt the same way that male/female sex is while having sex with each other
- Men shouldnt have sex with each other in a womans bed
The problem is that we dont know what exactly was meant by this passage but can only assume what is meant and hope that we dont get it wrong.
I would also be wary of any bible that used the terms “homosexual” or “homosexuality” in their translations, because those terms are not mentioned in the bible and were only created in the 19th century.
There is also no mention of lesbians in the bible, nor any mention of gay marriage (either for or against the act). It only mentions (depending on interperation) anal sex between men.
Im not trying to say that the church and christianity in general has it wrong (although it is a possibility, much like we were wrong about slavery), I am saying that there is plenty of room for debate on the issue and that the scriptures are not actually clear about homosexuality.
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rlg94086
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This is only true if you use eisegesis rather than exegesis. Only recent “scholars” have come up with the ambiguity of Scripture regarding homosexuality. Both the Jewish and Christian tradition have had a consistent understanding that homosexual acts are sinful.
Also, the Catholic Church didn’t “have it wrong” on slavery.
users.binary.net/polycarp/slave.html
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Elric
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That isnt true, that ambiguity has always been there and why state “scollars” like that?
Sorry but that is rubbish. Besides, what/where did they get that understanding from?
Wow you are acting extremly defensivly over something that wasnt even an attack. I didnt say anything in regard to the cathloic church in regard to slavery, I actually meant humanity/christianity as a whole. This wasnt even an issue, just an example of when humanity has got something wrong.
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rlg94086
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Because their “scholarly” research is suspect. That’s why I mentioned eisegesis (i.e. personal interpretation).
Their understanding of Scripture and the oral tradition taught to them by the prophets, rabbis and apostles. If you can find something pro-homosexuality from ancient Judeo-Christian texts, then please provide some info. Here is some info from Catholic Answers regarding the Church Fathers’ statements on homosexuality: catholic.com/library/Early_Teachings_on_Homosexuality.asp
Well, it is a Catholic forum, and Catholics are part of humanity/Christianity… Sorry if I misunderstood. I’m glad you agree that the Catholic Church has consistently been right about slavery…and homosexuality.
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